Two Big Law employees: one from Harvard, one from regional school... Forum

[texasrangersjb]

7

[rpupkin]

When you write "two big law employees," I assume you mean "two big law associates."

In my experience, an associate's law school is unlikely to make a difference after hiring is complete. Law firms are pretty much meritocracies. If the regional grad does better work than the HLS grad, the regional grad is going to have more success at the firm.

But the HLS grad may have some indirect advantages. For example, the HLS grad will likely have a better network; he or she should have more connections in other big law firms, as well as more connections in-house at big clients. Down the road, this could make it easier for the HLS grad to cultivate clients and develop a book of business.

[texasrangersjb]

When you write "two big law employees," I assume you mean "two big law associates."

In my experience, an associate's law school is unlikely to make a difference after hiring is complete. Law firms are pretty much meritocracies. If the regional grad does better work than the HLS grad, the regional grad is going to have more success at the firm.

But the HLS grad may have some indirect advantages. For example, the HLS grad will likely have a better network; he or she should have more connections in other big law firms, as well as more connections in-house at big clients. Down the road, this could make it easier for the HLS grad to cultivate clients and develop a book of business.

Sorry, yes associates... smoh

[zeglo]

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[Auxilio]

What separates these two? Once the regional school guy (let's assume he was in the top 10% of his class) and the HYS student graduate and become employed by the same Big Law firm for identical Big Law pay, what is the difference between the two?

Basically where will you see a tangible difference in their lives that correlate with the school they attended?

Note: I'm not saying there will be no difference, but I would like some clarity from you knowledgeable folks. I have some thoughts but don't want to contaminate the discussion or lead it in any one direction.

I may be wrong, but I feel like you are likely trying to justify going to a school with bad big law placement (probably with the idea that of course you will work hard and get that top 10%). Please do not make a choice with any kind of presumption that you have a greater than 10% chance to get in top 10%. Not only will almost everyone work as hard as you plan too, the amount of work put in does not determine ranking at all. I am sure I am on the lower end of work put in (or at least time put in) and came out near the top in grades. Assume you will get median at best.

[juliuscasear90]

Better lateral options for sure

Better trained to "Think like a lawyer?" No way that's b.s. Faculty predominantly come from Harvard and Yale at any school.

Probably more raw analytical intelligence tho--for whatever that's worth. Harvard people actually tend to be pretty business oriented and have good social skills in addition to being brilliant. Yale people tend to be very much groomed for academia and Stanford well who knows. Not sure if that answers your question but those are some typical aerial level meta observations.

[stretchedtoothin]

Better lateral options for sure

Better trained to "Think like a lawyer?" No way that's b.s. Faculty predominantly come from Harvard and Yale at any school.

Probably more raw analytical intelligence tho--for whatever that's worth. Harvard people actually tend to be pretty business oriented and have good social skills in addition to being brilliant. Yale people tend to be very much groomed for academia and Stanford well who knows. Not sure if that answers your question but those are some typical aerial level meta observations.

[abl]

Once you get a spot at a firm, your success at that firm will depend in large part on how you are viewed by the senior associates and partners who control work flow. There are some biglaw associates/partners from regional schools with chips on their shoulder who will favor associates from regional schools (especially from their own school). There are other biglaw associates/partners who favor graduates from elite schools. I'd wager that there are far more people in biglaw who fall into the "prestige" category than in the other category, although to some extent this is going to be firm and practice group dependent. Ultimately, it's going to be your work and your relationships that determine your success. But starting with a leg up can help.

I think there's also a fair argument that going to Harvard is going to give you the best chance at refining your skills as a lawyer (and hence enhancing the quality of your work and therefore success in biglaw). Your faculty are going to be generally the leaders in their fields (as opposed to "merely" very smart graduates of HYS) and your classmates are going to be among the most impressive law students in the country. And your in-school learning opportunities (clinics, RA positions, etc) will be about as good as they get. You can undoubtedly get a good education anywhere. But your ceiling (and probably floor) for educational quality is almost certainly higher at Harvard. Now whether someone who performs in the top 10% of their class at a regional actually has gotten a worse education than someone who is median at Harvard is an entirely different question. So in your hypothetical about "two big law employees," therefore, it's impossible to really say who is actually coming in best prepared for success. If we accept that both the Harvard and regional grad have finished in roughly similar places in their respective classes, though, my bet is that the Harvard grad is better prepared to do well.

Other than that, going to Harvard is going to help you more with exit options or with any sort of career pivot you might want. It also probably helps marginally for partnership decisions, but I think that it's impact on those is rarely going to make or break your chances at partner.

That said, I don't want to overstate any of these effects. For the most part--and the numbers back this up--once you start at a firm, where you went to law school is going to take a back seat to other things.

[bpolley0]

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[duck]

What separates these two? Once the regional school guy (let's assume he was in the top 10% of his class) and the HYS student graduate and become employed by the same Big Law firm for identical Big Law pay, what is the difference between the two?

Basically where will you see a tangible difference in their lives that correlate with the school they attended?

Note: I'm not saying there will be no difference, but I would like some clarity from you knowledgeable folks. I have some thoughts but don't want to contaminate the discussion or lead it in any one direction.

harvard bro's friends are all way more successful than him and regional school bro's friends are all unemployed. advantage: regional school

[Lexaholik]

What separates these two? Once the regional school guy (let's assume he was in the top 10% of his class) and the HYS student graduate and become employed by the same Big Law firm for identical Big Law pay, what is the difference between the two?

Basically where will you see a tangible difference in their lives that correlate with the school they attended?

Note: I'm not saying there will be no difference, but I would like some clarity from you knowledgeable folks. I have some thoughts but don't want to contaminate the discussion or lead it in any one direction.

I once worked at a V5 that hired very, very heavily from HLS but also hired many associates from the top of the class at regional schools. If I had to summarize, the regional school alum is equally if not more capable but career prospects for the HLS grad will be better.

Let me explain what I mean.

As a midlevel I preferred to work with the regional school associates. HLS associates were largely impressive but on occasion I'd work with someone who was unpleasant or incomepetent or lazy or all 3. It was rare, but it's happened before. Associates from regional schools never--never disappointed me. Sometimes they were eccentric but they were always a pleasure to work with. I've never been anything less than impressed with their work product.

Now I don't know if this has to do with expectations or selective memory. Usually I didn't know what school an associate attended. But I admit that sometimes I did. Like the one associate who was just terrible. I remember he was a HLS graduate because I remember looking him up because I wondered, damn where did the firm dig up this guy. Or the other associate who went so far above and beyond what was required from her that I assumed she went to Yale. Wrong. She went to a regional school I didn't even know we hired from.

With regard to their "lives" I assume you mean their career prospects. Associates at the firm were never able live off their educational resumes because frankly HLS graduates were a dime a dozen. They were everywhere. In fact elite law school grads were so common that even if you graduated from a regional school, there was a good chance that people would assume that you graduated from a top school anyways because well over half of all associates went to T6 and three-quarters went to a T14.

However there was one specific advantage HLS grads had over other associates--relationships. HLS grads spent 3 years with other HLS grads--even if they didn't know them before coming to the firm, they had a lot of mutual friends. That creates sort of an informal network of support and information. As one of two grads in my summer class from my particular T14, I didn't have the same network and felt alone pretty often. I was always out of the loop.

The lack of relationships extended beyond our peer group. I'm friends with a HLS grad who had one of the firm's most Powerful Partners as an internal (and informal) sponsor. I know this because he was always on the phone with this Powerful Partner, and when HLS grad left the firm, Powerful Partner actually came by the office to say goodbye. HLS grad later told me he was recruited specifically by Powerful Partner from the moment he was interviewed. HLS grad was given exclusive summer associate assignments. PP made sure HLS grad worked with him throughout his junior associate years and was instrumental (by using his guidance and connections) in helping HLS grad land some plum government position.

So when people ask me if it makes a difference that you went to HLS or some regional, I always say it does, but not in the way you think. When I ended up at the firm, I had no one looking out for me. I was put on some terrible assignments and when I looked around I noticed there were many associates from top schools (T7-14) who probably didn't have any powerful partners looking out for them either. In the end, HLS doesn't give you a leg up because it's Harvard--it gives you a leg up because it creates the possibility of relationships with influential people. (It also doesn't have to be Harvard. I know that my T14 is heavily represented at K&E--perhaps that's where I should have gone to work.)