New York Times: CLS is a TTT

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moonman157
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby moonman157 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:37 pm

Kinda confused as to the reactions ITT. Of course some people come out of CLS not working desirable, or even legal, jobs. Everyone has known that their full-time JD employment is around 93%, and was obviously lower during the bad times (like 2010). So we've always known that around 7% of CLS grads don't get desirable jobs, or even any legal jobs, and this guy is just a part of that small percentage. The numbers are worse at just about every school, including the rest of the T14. It's obviously a really sucky situation for this guy, as it is for any law school graduate with a lot of debt working a job that doesn't require a JD or doesn't allow you to service that debt, but did people think that CLS had a 100% biglaw/fed clerk rate?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:43 pm

The numbers are based on 9 months out of graduation - people tend to think/hope someone will still be able to get something after that, not be shut out permanently. And no one thinks they're going to be that Columbia guy.

blsingindisguise
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby blsingindisguise » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:44 pm

moonman157 wrote:Kinda confused as to the reactions ITT. Of course some people come out of CLS not working desirable, or even legal, jobs. Everyone has known that their full-time JD employment is around 93%, and was obviously lower during the bad times (like 2010). So we've always known that around 7% of CLS grads don't get desirable jobs, or even any legal jobs, and this guy is just a part of that small percentage. The numbers are worse at just about every school, including the rest of the T14. It's obviously a really sucky situation for this guy, as it is for any law school graduate with a lot of debt working a job that doesn't require a JD or doesn't allow you to service that debt, but did people think that CLS had a 100% biglaw/fed clerk rate?


I generally agree that the odds are good enough for biglaw from CLS that it's worth going if you really want biglaw. The question I pose is just whether near-guaranteed biglaw is compensation enough for the amount of debt you take on. I honestly think that if I were a current law school applicant but had my current knowledge of the industry, I would not even go to CLS at its current full price. Some of that is my personal situation and personal tolerance for work misery. But it just doesn't seem worth the amount of debt you have to take on when your most likely outcome is a few years at a V50 then a reduced-salary government or in-house or midlaw job, while being hindered from being able to do simple things like buy a house because of your debt load.

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moonman157
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby moonman157 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:51 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:The numbers are based on 9 months out of graduation - people tend to think/hope someone will still be able to get something after that, not be shut out permanently. And no one thinks they're going to be that Columbia guy.


If anything then, I think this article highlights how much of an uphill battle it is if you don't have a job right away to get one, especially when you're targeting the fields that CLS tends to place into (biglaw) and especially if you're graduating during a really terrible economy. Firm hiring is done on such a strict schedule that if you miss the boat there aren't a lot of opportunities, and there's always a huge influx of students looking to get biglaw jobs each year that are more desirable than someone 9 months/a year out with no legal experience (especially someone who was no-offered at a firm like this guy apparently was). Obviously it sucks, and no one imagines that they'll be this guy, but fortunately at a school like CLS almost everyone will be right in that assumption. It's nice to have a reminder of the risks, and I don't think any credible poster on this site will argue that sticker price at any school is worth it, but the fact that there are 2010 graduates who were unable to break into the legal field shouldn't surprise anyone, no matter what school they went to. We've had the data to prove this for a while now.

Aristogeiton1
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby Aristogeiton1 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:52 pm

My fav quote:
"Others, like G. Troy Pickett, 44, of Houston, who worked as a bartender in Austin before going back to school with the intent of becoming a big-firm mergers and acquisitions lawyer, opted to set up their own practices.

“I began to realize that I had set the bar too high, but I kept thinking that if I could get my foot in the door, I could do it,” he said of his decision to attend South Texas College of Law in Houston."

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:53 pm

I think part of the point is that the article isn't directed at people who hang out here.

Nomo
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby Nomo » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:01 pm

$100/hour sounds great, but if you have to pay all of your own social security taxes, medicare taxes, and health insurance, then that takes a bite out. And its not like you're getting paid for every hour you work. Nor are you able to get 40 hours a week, even if you want it.

We all think that being a solo who charges $150/hour is a bad gig, even if you're actually getting clients. Why are some on here so quick to believe that working as an LSAT tutor is a decent job.

Moneytrees
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby Moneytrees » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Nomo wrote:$100/hour sounds great, but if you have to pay all of your own social security taxes, medicare taxes, and health insurance, then that takes a bite out. And its not like you're getting paid for every hour you work. Nor are you able to get 40 hours a week, even if you want it.

We all think that being a solo who charges $150/hour is a bad gig, even if you're actually getting clients. Why are some on here so quick to believe that working as an LSAT tutor is a decent job.


Well 7Sage is a very successful website so I'm not so sure people feel like they should lament that guy's fate. But obviously for most top law school students becoming an LSAT tutor is not a good outcome.

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Pragmatic Gun
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Another NYT Article about Law School Debt

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:39 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/27/busin ... .html?_r=0

Choice quote:

Others, like G. Troy Pickett, 44, of Houston, who worked as a bartender in Austin before going back to school with the intent of becoming a big-firm mergers and acquisitions lawyer, opted to set up their own practices.

“I began to realize that I had set the bar too high, but I kept thinking that if I could get my foot in the door, I could do it,” he said of his decision to attend South Texas College of Law in Houston


Seriously? Is this law school preftigious in Texas?

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MCFC
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Re: Another NYT Article about Law School Debt

Postby MCFC » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:40 pm


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Pragmatic Gun
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Re: Another NYT Article about Law School Debt

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:46 pm

Gosh darn it.

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PariSiamo
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Re: Another NYT Article about Law School Debt

Postby PariSiamo » Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:05 pm

Pragmatic Gun wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/27/business/dealbook/burdened-with-debt-law-school-graduates-struggle-in-job-market.html?_r=0

Choice quote:

Others, like G. Troy Pickett, 44, of Houston, who worked as a bartender in Austin before going back to school with the intent of becoming a big-firm mergers and acquisitions lawyer, opted to set up their own practices.

“I began to realize that I had set the bar too high, but I kept thinking that if I could get my foot in the door, I could do it,” he said of his decision to attend South Texas College of Law in Houston


Seriously? Is this law school preftigious in Texas?


You must not have much contact with the common folk. There are lots of people who assume attending any law school is a smart person thing

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Pragmatic Gun
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Re: Another NYT Article about Law School Debt

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:11 pm

I have been among the proles once. I had to drink their grape drink...a strange concoction.

I get that among the lay people, law school holds prestige, but it baffles me that his dude didn't do his research until his ship started sinking while navigating his dumpster fire of a law school.

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Nebby
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Re: Another NYT Article about Law School Debt

Postby Nebby » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:12 pm

Pragmatic Gun wrote:I have been among the proles once. I had to drink their grape drink...a strange concoction.

I get that among the lay people, law school holds prestige, but it baffles me that his dude didn't do his research until his ship started sinking while navigating his dumpster fire of a law school.

wat

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PariSiamo
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Re: Another NYT Article about Law School Debt

Postby PariSiamo » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:13 pm

^that was a terrible terrible mistake.

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KMart
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Re: Another NYT Article about Law School Debt

Postby KMart » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:15 pm

PariSiamo wrote:There are lots of people who assume attending any law school is a smart person thing

It's almost annoying when they tell me to go to some TTTT because 50 years ago they knew someone who had a great career from there. They get mad and call me pessimistic when I try to say paying off debt at X school is likely unattainable. There's only so much you can tell laypeople if they don't know.

How anyone goes to a school without doing research baffles me, though. It's a huge investment. Look into your choices. :/.

Julius
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby Julius » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:23 pm

moonman157 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:The numbers are based on 9 months out of graduation - people tend to think/hope someone will still be able to get something after that, not be shut out permanently. And no one thinks they're going to be that Columbia guy.


If anything then, I think this article highlights how much of an uphill battle it is if you don't have a job right away to get one, especially when you're targeting the fields that CLS tends to place into (biglaw) and especially if you're graduating during a really terrible economy. Firm hiring is done on such a strict schedule that if you miss the boat there aren't a lot of opportunities, and there's always a huge influx of students looking to get biglaw jobs each year that are more desirable than someone 9 months/a year out with no legal experience (especially someone who was no-offered at a firm like this guy apparently was). Obviously it sucks, and no one imagines that they'll be this guy, but fortunately at a school like CLS almost everyone will be right in that assumption. It's nice to have a reminder of the risks, and I don't think any credible poster on this site will argue that sticker price at any school is worth it, but the fact that there are 2010 graduates who were unable to break into the legal field shouldn't surprise anyone, no matter what school they went to. We've had the data to prove this for a while now.


I think you're missing the fact that he had a year long position with a state judge. Which means he was not in the 7% that have nothing coming out of CLS--he was in the 93% of "good" outcomes.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby shifty_eyed » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:34 pm

In Houston, South Texas is pretty well-respected. I had multiple people ask why I wasn't applying there when I told them I was looking at UH and UT. Everyone thought UT was better, obviously, but I think people thought South Texas was better than UH.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:38 pm

Julius wrote:I think you're missing the fact that he had a year long position with a state judge. Which means he was not in the 7% that have nothing coming out of CLS--he was in the 93% of "good" outcomes.

He likely had a school funded job, which anyone can get, and those jobs tend to be worse than the handful of ones that don't fall into the LTFTBPR category. The 7% you're referring to often are in pretty good shape at graduation. Columbia provides pretty extensive salary information so it's not like we need to guess here.

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jbagelboy
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:41 am

RunnerRunner wrote:
I<3ScholarlySweets! wrote:I think using CLS as an example is great because for one, bashing on literal TTTs has been done over and over again (beating the dead horse). Secondly, using CLS as an example is insightful because it seems counterintuitive that CLS graduates would be struggling (yes, Mr. Wang makes $100/hr but it seems like he really wants to practice law, and that sucks this desire can't come into fruition). Thirdly, using CLS as an example is telling because it shows that no one is really safe in this economy.

Eh, I agree with 1 and 2, but as for 3 there are always going to be a few people at every school who strike out, and although I have no love for Columbia I kinda doubt they turn out many stories like the guy in this article.


CLS had the best numbers of any school in 2010. You were more likely to strike out everywhere else. And still, even in an improved economy you can dig deep enough and find a harvard or columbia strikeout somewhere.

Its just sensational journalism. Move along.

I<3ScholarlySweets!
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby I<3ScholarlySweets! » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:44 pm

Comparing a shitty outcome to another, shittier outcome and inferring that the former outcome is good, simply because it's better than the latter, strikes me as flawed reasoning.

The best option here is to avoid law school altogether.




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