New York Times: CLS is a TTT

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ManoftheHour
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby ManoftheHour » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:39 pm

Don't (some of) those gigs pay well?

ETA: “I thought the LSAT tutoring gig was going to be a temporary thing, but five years and one bar admission renewal later, here I am,” he said. His business has greatly expanded and he makes $100 an hour, but that is far below what he would make at a law firm. And, he said, “I waffle constantly, but I’m still in the mind-set that I need to find a real job.”

If he can crank out the hours, that's pretty good.

MadwomanintheAttic
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby MadwomanintheAttic » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:43 pm

Question: Is the Jonathan Wang in this article the same Jonathan Wang that's involved with 7sage? If so, it sounds like he did have a job in the private sector making decent money at one time based on his 7sage bio. I don't think his situation is as dire at the NYT tried to make it seem.

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RZ5646
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby RZ5646 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:47 pm

I've always wondered what the deal is with LSAT tutors. Smart people who found out too late that they don't want to be lawyers? I'm sure some of the big names make bank, but it can't be easy to make decent money as a small-time LSAT tutor.

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RunnerRunner
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby RunnerRunner » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:47 pm

MadwomanintheAttic wrote:Question: Is the Jonathan Wang in this article the same Jonathan Wang that's involved with 7sage? If so, it sounds like he did have a job in the private sector making decent money at one time based on his 7sage bio. I don't think his situation is as dire at the NYT tried to make it seem.

I'm guessing yes. Also laughed when I saw they used Columbia as the example. There are so many TTT dumpster fires out there and they use the 4th ranked law school in the country??

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Clemenceau
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby Clemenceau » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:49 pm

RunnerRunner wrote:
MadwomanintheAttic wrote:Question: Is the Jonathan Wang in this article the same Jonathan Wang that's involved with 7sage? If so, it sounds like he did have a job in the private sector making decent money at one time based on his 7sage bio. I don't think his situation is as dire at the NYT tried to make it seem.

I'm guessing yes. Also laughed when I saw they used Columbia as the example. There are so many TTT dumpster fires out there and they use the 4th ranked law school in the country??


Rhetorical effect. "This even happens to columbia grads"

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RunnerRunner
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby RunnerRunner » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:53 pm

Clemenceau wrote:
RunnerRunner wrote:
MadwomanintheAttic wrote:Question: Is the Jonathan Wang in this article the same Jonathan Wang that's involved with 7sage? If so, it sounds like he did have a job in the private sector making decent money at one time based on his 7sage bio. I don't think his situation is as dire at the NYT tried to make it seem.

I'm guessing yes. Also laughed when I saw they used Columbia as the example. There are so many TTT dumpster fires out there and they use the 4th ranked law school in the country??


Rhetorical effect. "This even happens to columbia grads"

Yeah makes sense. Seems a little misleading though: I'm betting that type of situation is the rare exception at Columbia and the rule in other places.

I<3ScholarlySweets!
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby I<3ScholarlySweets! » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:53 pm

I think using CLS as an example is great because for one, bashing on literal TTTs has been done over and over again (beating the dead horse). Secondly, using CLS as an example is insightful because it seems counterintuitive that CLS graduates would be struggling (yes, Mr. Wang makes $100/hr but it seems like he really wants to practice law, and that sucks this desire can't come into fruition). Thirdly, using CLS as an example is telling because it shows that no one is really safe in this economy.

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RunnerRunner
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby RunnerRunner » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:00 pm

I<3ScholarlySweets! wrote:I think using CLS as an example is great because for one, bashing on literal TTTs has been done over and over again (beating the dead horse). Secondly, using CLS as an example is insightful because it seems counterintuitive that CLS graduates would be struggling (yes, Mr. Wang makes $100/hr but it seems like he really wants to practice law, and that sucks this desire can't come into fruition). Thirdly, using CLS as an example is telling because it shows that no one is really safe in this economy.

Eh, I agree with 1 and 2, but as for 3 there are always going to be a few people at every school who strike out, and although I have no love for Columbia I kinda doubt they turn out many stories like the guy in this article.

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dabigchina
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby dabigchina » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:02 pm

You guys can google for his LinkedIn. Basically, Fenwick no offered him after his SA in 2009 (for obvious reasons). Nothing he or CLS could have done.

Also, $100 an hr is bank. I'm pretty sure most midlevels do not even make that much money considering how many hours they work. You just don't get dat recognition from your tigerparents. I know my tiger parents would not be happy.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby ManoftheHour » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:07 pm

RunnerRunner wrote:Yeah makes sense. Seems a little misleading though: I'm betting that type of situation is the rare exception at Columbia and the rule in other places.

That and "this rare exception" is making $100/hr teaching LSAT. lol, poor guy

I<3ScholarlySweets!
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby I<3ScholarlySweets! » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:20 pm

Just do take out thousands & thousands of dollars of student loans and waste away 3 years of your short-lived youth to end up as an LSAT tutor--a job one could have copped without wasting 3 years in law school (many prep companies pay $100/hr and having a JD is no requirement).

Mr. Wang's tone implies that he isn't really happy doing LSAT prep; his true goal is to be a practicing attorney. I guess this article, as some posters ITT think, shows that a Columbia JD is very VERSATILE and it opens LOTS OF DOORS.

blsingindisguise
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby blsingindisguise » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:34 pm

First of all, people with top law school credentials and mediocre job situations who graduated in 2010/2011 are not rare exceptions, you run into them a lot. Some of them eventually find their way to a better place than where they start, but it's not going to be biglaw in most cases.

Second, $100/hr is nice for a tutor, but remember that (1) he could have done that without going to law school at all (2) he's probably not tutoring more than 20 hrs/wk, if that, and (3) he's now saddled with likely six-figure debt to pay off.

Third -- I think people really should consider the sense of indentured servitude they may wind up feeling if they DO get biglaw but have $150k-200k debt. 200k on a ten-year plan at 6.8% is about $2300 per month. What if you don't like working biglaw? I.e., what if you don't like working 30 or 45 day stretches with no days off, cancelling vacations, missing weddings, constantly bailing on your gf/bf for dinner? What if you don't like being a glorified Chinese sweatshop worker with a big seamless budget?

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:26 am

Where's jbagel we need damage control

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rpupkin
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby rpupkin » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:12 am

Mack.Hambleton wrote:Where's jbagel we need damage control

He's in Times Square soliciting LSAT tutorees. CLS bros gotta pay off all that debt somehow.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby UnicornHunter » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:17 am

The real take away is that if you go to law school and the economy takes a hit when you're about to graduate your career can be perma-fucked. There's no recovery anymore if you don't get a fast start.

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bowser
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby bowser » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:38 am

What recovery was there to not getting Biglaw by the time you graduated in 2007? Or 1999? Cravath only hired 2Ls and clerks back then too, I'm pretty sure.

DK21
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby DK21 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:16 am

http://pagesix.com/2015/04/27/could-oba ... ite-house/

You guys Obama is gonna teach at CLS, so uh yeah I'm pretty sure columbia grads are safe

blsingindisguise
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby blsingindisguise » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:40 am

People will always have a hard time accepting the concept that there might be a price at which even a top law school is no longer worth it. It's just the inability of people with upper-middle-class expectations to understand the way the landscape is changing.

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RunnerRunner
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby RunnerRunner » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:48 am

blsingindisguise wrote:First of all, people with top law school credentials and mediocre job situations who graduated in 2010/2011 are not rare exceptions, you run into them a lot. Some of them eventually find their way to a better place than where they start, but it's not going to be biglaw in most cases.

Second, $100/hr is nice for a tutor, but remember that (1) he could have done that without going to law school at all (2) he's probably not tutoring more than 20 hrs/wk, if that, and (3) he's now saddled with likely six-figure debt to pay off.

Third -- I think people really should consider the sense of indentured servitude they may wind up feeling if they DO get biglaw but have $150k-200k debt. 200k on a ten-year plan at 6.8% is about $2300 per month. What if you don't like working biglaw? I.e., what if you don't like working 30 or 45 day stretches with no days off, cancelling vacations, missing weddings, constantly bailing on your gf/bf for dinner? What if you don't like being a glorified Chinese sweatshop worker with a big seamless budget?


That may be true but we aren't just talking about "mediocre job situations" we are talking about being an LSAT tutor, a job which (as you pointed out) doesn't even require going to law school and passing the bar. I still say that is a rare exception of a situation for a Columbia law grad. I mean, their bar required employment percentage is 93% (not sure what it was for 2010, but I'm confident it wasn't high enough to imply that they'd become a pipeline to LSAT tutoring companies). On your third point: I don't disagree at all. I think biglaw out of Columbia is a terrible outcome if you have crazy debt, and indentured servitude sounds like an apt comparison, haha! But for some reason lots of people go to Columbia with the intent to enter biglaw when they graduate, and Columbia does a good job getting them there, so it isn't like the school isn't doing its job.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:54 am

When these kinds of articles focus on people from TTT law schools, everyone says, "What do you expect - they went to a TTT!" And now one actually addresses a Columbia grad, and people are saying, "But he's totally the exception?" I'm sure it's a great consolation to him that most of his classmates aren't in his position.

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Pneumonia
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby Pneumonia » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:02 am

just btw the $100/hr for tutoring is not being made 40 hrs/wk. Prep companies advertise that rate, but technically you only get paid for "teaching time," which can be as little as 8-10 hours per week. Still good money for what he's doing, but it's not like he can go work 40 or 50 hours a week at that rate. The upper limit is probably closer to 16-20.

xiao_long
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby xiao_long » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:54 am

I wonder how many CLS 14' graduates "struck out" last year?

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banjo
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby banjo » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:20 pm

Even during the recession CLS was one of the safer places to be.

Employment data for c/o 2010 & 2011: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415
UN-employment data for c/o 2011: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723

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Desert Fox
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Re: New York Times: CLS is a TTT

Postby Desert Fox » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:33 pm

banjo wrote:Even during the recession CLS was one of the safer places to be.

Employment data for c/o 2010 & 2011: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181415
UN-employment data for c/o 2011: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=181723


C/O 09 was a bad year for people in NYC biglaw. Corp work screeched to a halt. Firms laid of huge portions of their corp groups. NYC firms no offered a lot of people and gave "deferred offers" to others.

After 2009, corp work was steady, but the whole economy depressed demand for other legal services. NYC bounced back, but the rest of the country was getting worse at worse.




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