Latest employment data

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03152016
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby 03152016 » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:36 pm

it's not that hard to target ny onelisfun
that's where the jerbs are
the firms know why you're there

OneLisfun
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby OneLisfun » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:38 pm

cannibal ox wrote:
OneLisfun wrote:
cannibal ox wrote:
OneLisfun wrote:UT could have better employment numbers possibly if students did what you're saying, but they would probably be demolished if suddenly UT students from Texas with median grades decided they'd put two thirds of their bids in for NYC firms.


The NYC program for UT students is separate from the UT OCI where Texas firms come. So you can do both programs and not sacrifice any bids. Your entire OCI can be Texas firms, and you can do the entirety of the NYC job fair.



Okay, I'm talking more about how she said "target NYC." I wouldn't consider it targeting NYC to try for Texas, strike out, then go to that job fair if that's how it works. I doubt students with Texas ties who go to UT would be getting picked up at a job fair like that, but it couldn't hurt to try I guess.


Is it really enough of a concern from NYC firms that people with TX ties are going to bail for a TX firm? I thought the churn and burn setup of NYC accounted for associates with all types of ties dropping out after a couple years in NYC biglaw. Unless I'm horribly misinterpreting what you mean.



Yeah, sorry, I mistyped that originally and edited before you wrote that, but I guess you were in the middle of typing before I edited.

As far as a student who strikes out and then gets NYC or LA, are these students who did not have the grades for Texas, or just a problem of luck of the draw? If someone has grades where it looks like Texas won't really be an option for him/her even though he/she goes to UT law and is from Texas, I cannot imagine it looking like NYC and LA are a better bet. Sure, it's a huge school with lots of students, so there's going to be cases where a person's (person from Texas who goes to UT Law) grades and school combo make that person competitive enough to have a 60% shot at Texas and a 20% at NY and that person will lose on the 60% bet and win on the 20% bet though, just like any other kind of bet a person makes. I guess the original statement was too broad and can't really be taken literally.

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Re: Latest employment data

Postby OneLisfun » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:41 pm

Brut wrote:it's not that hard to target ny onelisfun
that's where the jerbs are
the firms know why you're there



Yes I miswrote that original post. I know NY is where you don't need ties at all. My point was more that I didn't feel a person who goes to UT and from Texas is going to look at his not great grades and say damn, I'm not gonna be able to get Texas big law with these, but NY big law I have a decent shot because it's easier to get for people like me.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby shifty_eyed » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:47 pm

OneLisfun wrote:
Brut wrote:it's not that hard to target ny onelisfun
that's where the jerbs are
the firms know why you're there



Yes I miswrote that original post. I know NY is where you don't need ties at all. My point was more that I didn't feel a person who goes to UT and from Texas is going to look at his not great grades and say damn, I'm not gonna be able to get Texas big law with these, but NY big law I have a decent shot because it's easier to get for people like me.


My point is more that people at UT who think, "Texas big law may not be a slam dunk for me," should consider that NYC may be an alternative option. I wasn't suggesting people should EXCLUSIVELY target NYC, and maybe I didn't make that clear at first, but because of the timing of the UT job fair, it's easy to do both.

Also, it's not just grades. If you are interested in lit and don't have the credentials for the lit boutiques, there aren't many lit SA spots in Houston (and I assume Dallas too) right now.

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Re: Latest employment data

Postby OneLisfun » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:51 pm

shifty_eyed wrote:
OneLisfun wrote:
Brut wrote:it's not that hard to target ny onelisfun
that's where the jerbs are
the firms know why you're there



Yes I miswrote that original post. I know NY is where you don't need ties at all. My point was more that I didn't feel a person who goes to UT and from Texas is going to look at his not great grades and say damn, I'm not gonna be able to get Texas big law with these, but NY big law I have a decent shot because it's easier to get for people like me.


My point is more that people at UT who think, "Texas big law may not be a slam dunk for me," should consider that NYC may be an alternative option. I wasn't suggesting people should EXCLUSIVELY target NYC, and maybe I didn't make that clear at first, but because of the timing of the UT job fair, it's easy to do both.

Also, it's not just grades. If you are interested in lit and don't have the credentials for the lit boutiques, there aren't many lit SA spots in Houston (and I assume Dallas too) right now.



Ok, yeah sure, I think generally every person should try for every option available to him/her. I don't think the UT law students from Texas should be substituting any Texas opportunities/bids with NYC opportunities/bids, but yes, doing both can only help. A 60% shot at something and then a 20% at something else that takes away nothing from the 60% is better than 60% alone.


Edit: As far as your edit, yes, there are a lot of factors aside from grades, my thing is more your whole package is X (we're calling that gpa/school combo) and you are from Texas and go to UT, you're not going to have a better bet at NYC big law than Texas big law. If you're going to talk about very specific things, I would suggest that person try to become comfortable with something that there is more a supply of in Texas where that person's home market and school are giving him/her a big advantage. If that person absolutely needs a specific thing that doesn't exist or almost doesn't exist in Texas, then ok, try for whatever you want, but you've just decreased your odds immensely.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:57 pm

OneLisfun wrote:Also, just to make clear, the typical advice at lower T14s is not to target NYC with lower grades. NYC is considered harder to get than secondary markets that you have ties to. At a lower T14, they will advise students with lower grades that the best move is to target secondary markets that they have ties to, as those are easier to get than NYC. That is the classic advice from career services. However, they will also make clear that targeting a secondary market you don't have ties to is an extremely bad move, so much below median grades with no secondary market ties is just not a great situation to be in at a lower T14.

Maybe this is the advice from CSO, but it's bad advice. Everyone should be targeting the place with more than 30% of the SA's.

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star fox
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby star fox » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:06 am

NYC should be in everyone's top 2.

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cookiejar1
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby cookiejar1 » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:31 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
OneLisfun wrote:Also, just to make clear, the typical advice at lower T14s is not to target NYC with lower grades. NYC is considered harder to get than secondary markets that you have ties to. At a lower T14, they will advise students with lower grades that the best move is to target secondary markets that they have ties to, as those are easier to get than NYC. That is the classic advice from career services. However, they will also make clear that targeting a secondary market you don't have ties to is an extremely bad move, so much below median grades with no secondary market ties is just not a great situation to be in at a lower T14.

Maybe this is the advice from CSO, but it's bad advice. Everyone should be targeting the place with more than 30% of the SA's.


Has anyone gotten this advice before? This is exceptionally bad advice. Lol just lol at the thought of anyone telling a median student at Michigan to target Colorado BIGLAW with a straight face.

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Re: Latest employment data

Postby OneLisfun » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:13 am

I'm not supposed to post anything about jobs and cutoffs of course, but I'm just going to say that I've seen first-hand firms that are located in undesirable locations, that are considered big law by our metric, with shockingly low grade requirements. If there's some other secondary markets that are harder to crack into than NYC even with ties, then I've never argued with that. I just know that it seems if a person is from an obscure location, that person seems to have a much easier shot getting a job there than in NYC.

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Re: Latest employment data

Postby OneLisfun » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:51 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
OneLisfun wrote:Also, just to make clear, the typical advice at lower T14s is not to target NYC with lower grades. NYC is considered harder to get than secondary markets that you have ties to. At a lower T14, they will advise students with lower grades that the best move is to target secondary markets that they have ties to, as those are easier to get than NYC. That is the classic advice from career services. However, they will also make clear that targeting a secondary market you don't have ties to is an extremely bad move, so much below median grades with no secondary market ties is just not a great situation to be in at a lower T14.

Maybe this is the advice from CSO, but it's bad advice. Everyone should be targeting the place with more than 30% of the SA's.



Also, in response to this, no, that's wrong. If the place that has more than 30% of the SAs has a very high cutoff and past of median grades and you fall far below that, you should not be applying there over other firms that have standards that are more in line with your grades. That might work at Columbia, but not at schools where firms will not take people that are below a certain percentile.


Edit: And while in general I just believe in that advice, a particular circumstance where what you're saying would be particularly untrue would be a person from, let's say, Nebraska, who has a 2.9, and there's a Nebraska firm saying they want people with at least a 2.8. I would suggest that person apply to the Nebraska firm rather than the firm that says they want a 3.7 and has a past history of median of 3.7 that takes lots of SAs from his school.

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cron1834
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby cron1834 » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:27 am

Obviously you shouldn't bid Cravath with median grades, but most NY firms aren't Cravath. And NY has like 40% of the jobs in aggregate. Where are you getting this stuff from?

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Re: Latest employment data

Postby OneLisfun » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

cron1834 wrote:Obviously you shouldn't bid Cravath with median grades, but most NY firms aren't Cravath. And NY has like 40% of the jobs in aggregate. Where are you getting this stuff from?


Well, for me, if I have to make my decision of which is an easier firm to get a job at, and one makes a posting saying their minimum gpa they want is a 3.0, and the other says their cutoff is 3.4, if I were a person from the state that says they want a 3.0, common sense leads me to believe getting the job that requires a 3.0 when I have a 3.2 would be easier than getting the job that requires a 3.4. Call me crazy...


I think part of the issue with what you're saying is you're not getting that supply and demand are both involved here, not just supply. Additionally, there are some secondary markets where no T14 students are ever from, so they are salivating to get a T14 student who happens to be from that area. The supply of students who fit the criteria for these firms in obscure areas is very small, whereas while there are more NY firms, their supply of students is endless.

Regardless of whether you agree with my logic it is a fact that there are obscure states that make job postings with minimum grades that are extremely low, to the point where it's clear it would be easier to get a job at that firm than an NYC firm, by far, if you're a person whose gpa is really low and from that state.
Last edited by OneLisfun on Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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chuckbass
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby chuckbass » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:53 am

If this is so simple, why are T14 grads unemployed/underemployed?

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Re: Latest employment data

Postby OneLisfun » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:01 am

scottidsntknow wrote:If this is so simple, why are T14 grads unemployed/underemployed?



Do you not get that I said obscure states that people at T14s are almost never from?
(That means few students at T14s are from these states, just to clarify.)

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:17 am

scottidsntknow wrote:If this is so simple, why are T14 grads unemployed/underemployed?


I don't know shit but it might be possible T14 grads (and even T20 grads) are "too good" for jobs in tertiary markets (making that phrase up). Idaho needs lawyers too. There are businesses out there. Probably.

Also, I like how the % of total SA's in NYC goes up as the thread drags on.

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Rigo
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby Rigo » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:18 am

OneLisfun wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:If this is so simple, why are T14 grads unemployed/underemployed?

Do you not get that I said obscure states that people at T14s are almost never from?
(That means few students at T14s are from these states, just to clarify.)

That Bismarck BigLaw, y'all!

OneLisfun
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby OneLisfun » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:23 am

Rigo wrote:
OneLisfun wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:If this is so simple, why are T14 grads unemployed/underemployed?

Do you not get that I said obscure states that people at T14s are almost never from?
(That means few students at T14s are from these states, just to clarify.)

That Bismarck BigLaw, y'all!


I'm not going to post any examples, but this is a thing. I would think other people at T14s would chime in agreeing with me, because it's a legitimate fact and not something I believe through logical deduction (although I believe my reasoning for why is probably valid).
Last edited by OneLisfun on Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby Capitol_Idea » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:24 am

OneLisfun wrote:
cron1834 wrote:Obviously you shouldn't bid Cravath with median grades, but most NY firms aren't Cravath. And NY has like 40% of the jobs in aggregate. Where are you getting this stuff from?


Well, for me, if I have to make my decision of which is an easier firm to get a job at, and one makes a posting saying their minimum gpa they want is a 3.0, and the other says their cutoff is 3.4, if I were a person from the state that says they want a 3.0, common sense leads me to believe getting the job that requires a 3.0 when I have a 3.2 would be easier than getting the job that requires a 3.4. Call me crazy...


I think part of the issue with what you're saying is you're not getting that supply and demand are both involved here, not just supply. Additionally, there are some secondary markets where no T14 students are ever from, so they are salivating to get a T14 student who happens to be from that area. The supply of students who fit the criteria for these firms in obscure areas is very small, whereas while there are more NY firms, their supply of students is endless.

Regardless of whether you agree with my logic it is a fact that there are obscure states that make job postings with minimum grades that are extremely low, to the point where it's clear it would be easier to get a job at that firm than an NYC firm, by far, if you're a person whose gpa is really low and from that state.

It doesn't make sense not to target NYC even if you have median grades. There are so many firms that are not Cravath/SullCrom/etc. Even then, they might take a median t14 (ok, let's be honest - t6/t10 realistically) over an above-median student from the lower schools. You should be prepared to hit a secondary market as well but categorically avoiding New York seems really dumb.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby Capitol_Idea » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:26 am

Rigo wrote:
OneLisfun wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:If this is so simple, why are T14 grads unemployed/underemployed?

Do you not get that I said obscure states that people at T14s are almost never from?
(That means few students at T14s are from these states, just to clarify.)

That Bismarck BigLaw, y'all!

You laugh, but Skadden will have a satellite office there in 5 years :P

Also to Peanuts' point, I hear NYC is up to 45.6% of all SAs now

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Re: Latest employment data

Postby OneLisfun » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:33 am

zacharus85 wrote:
OneLisfun wrote:
cron1834 wrote:Obviously you shouldn't bid Cravath with median grades, but most NY firms aren't Cravath. And NY has like 40% of the jobs in aggregate. Where are you getting this stuff from?


Well, for me, if I have to make my decision of which is an easier firm to get a job at, and one makes a posting saying their minimum gpa they want is a 3.0, and the other says their cutoff is 3.4, if I were a person from the state that says they want a 3.0, common sense leads me to believe getting the job that requires a 3.0 when I have a 3.2 would be easier than getting the job that requires a 3.4. Call me crazy...


I think part of the issue with what you're saying is you're not getting that supply and demand are both involved here, not just supply. Additionally, there are some secondary markets where no T14 students are ever from, so they are salivating to get a T14 student who happens to be from that area. The supply of students who fit the criteria for these firms in obscure areas is very small, whereas while there are more NY firms, their supply of students is endless.

Regardless of whether you agree with my logic it is a fact that there are obscure states that make job postings with minimum grades that are extremely low, to the point where it's clear it would be easier to get a job at that firm than an NYC firm, by far, if you're a person whose gpa is really low and from that state.

It doesn't make sense not to target NYC even if you have median grades. There are so many firms that are not Cravath/SullCrom/etc. Even then, they might take a median t14 (ok, let's be honest - t6/t10 realistically) over an above-median student from the lower schools. You should be prepared to hit a secondary market as well but categorically avoiding New York seems really dumb.



You're arguing with a straw man. When did I ever say someone with median grades shouldn't target NYC at all? He acted like all T14 students should try for the firm with 30% of the SA class, and I explained that he is wrong and also explained why. You get that half of T14 students are below median right? And a third are bottom third. Of course median T14 students should try for NYC. They should also try for the secondary markets to which they have ties if those markets are obscure.

Students who are well below median and have ties to these obscure markets can get big law that way. (Again, we describe big law on this site as 100 plus.)

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Re: Latest employment data

Postby OneLisfun » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:38 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:If this is so simple, why are T14 grads unemployed/underemployed?


I don't know shit but it might be possible T14 grads (and even T20 grads) are "too good" for jobs in tertiary markets (making that phrase up). Idaho needs lawyers too. There are businesses out there. Probably.

Also, I like how the % of total SA's in NYC goes up as the thread drags on.



I think it's partially because they want students with ties, and only a very small percentage of students at T14s are from these kinds of states.

What you said also contributes though for sure.

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Re: Latest employment data

Postby Effingham » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:41 am

Rigo wrote:
OneLisfun wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:If this is so simple, why are T14 grads unemployed/underemployed?

Do you not get that I said obscure states that people at T14s are almost never from?
(That means few students at T14s are from these states, just to clarify.)

That Bismarck BigLaw, y'all!


Besides that the Bakken has likely plateaued, Bismarck is probably one of the best examples where this guy's point would literally hold true. They are hurting for legal jobs out there.

Other than that, I don't know what this guy thinks hes arguing. No one has ever said that you shouldn't target the secondary market where you're from. Seemed like his point started out as "just target those states no one wants to go to" and became "target NYC and your secondary home market," as if no one had ever considered this unique proposition.

OneLisfun
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby OneLisfun » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:44 am

Effingham wrote:
Rigo wrote:
OneLisfun wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:If this is so simple, why are T14 grads unemployed/underemployed?

Do you not get that I said obscure states that people at T14s are almost never from?
(That means few students at T14s are from these states, just to clarify.)

That Bismarck BigLaw, y'all!


Besides that the Bakken has likely plateaued, Bismarck is probably one of the best examples where this guy's point would literally hold true. They are hurting for legal jobs out there.

Other than that, I don't know what this guy thinks hes arguing. No one has ever said that you shouldn't target the secondary market where you're from. Seemed like his point started out as "just target those states no one wants to go to" and became "target NYC and your secondary home market," as if no one had ever considered this unique proposition.



No, please read again, you must not have very good reading comprehension if you think that's what happened. Please quote where I said anything along the lines of "just target those states no one wants to go to."

(Please check my latest edit on each post as well. I'm excited to see the quote that shows anything along the lines of what you said.)

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Re: Latest employment data

Postby Effingham » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:46 am

I bet you make 1L fun for all your classmates too.

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Cobretti
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Re: Latest employment data

Postby Cobretti » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:50 am

OneLisfun wrote:Also, in response to this, no, that's wrong. If the place that has more than 30% of the SAs has a very high cutoff and past of median grades and you fall far below that, you should not be applying there over other firms that have standards that are more in line with your grades. That might work at Columbia, but not at schools where firms will not take people that are below a certain percentile.


Edit: And while in general I just believe in that advice, a particular circumstance where what you're saying would be particularly untrue would be a person from, let's say, Nebraska, who has a 2.9, and there's a Nebraska firm saying they want people with at least a 2.8. I would suggest that person apply to the Nebraska firm rather than the firm that says they want a 3.7 and has a past history of median of 3.7 that takes lots of SAs from his school.

In total extreme examples like you've created here this might be good advice, but this isn't what anyone here is talking about and this is probably the most common logic that causes people to strike out that didn't need to. If you have a 3.1 at a lower T14 (median 3.3) and you bid on tiny shops that take 1 or 2 SAs a year with a historic median CB of 3.0 you are less likely to get a job than if you bid on a bunch of large summer classes in NY with median CBs of 3.3. Interviewing is too unpredictable and you can never assume you'll be the one person out of all the law schools in the country that gets that job. When its such a small summer size anything can happen. You could happen to have someone else from you hometown that went to Yale your year, you could make an innocent remark that happens to offend some uptight partner during your CB, anything can happen. The safest bet is always to go with the greatest number of CBs for the largest summer classes, and that is why NYC should be everyone's backup plan and not some tiny home market.




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