Latest employment data Forum

[storpappa]

Question: why do we completely disregard solo practitioners?

because it is not the ideal world to walk out of law school into - anyone can do it, the top or the worst of the class. With three years of debt on your back. And instead of a career with connections to help you get started, you hang out a shingle and hope and pray to not only make a living, but pay off the debt principal and interest, and make contributions to your alumni association

[youtube]1-mOKMq19zU[/youtube]

[bananatopia]

deleted

[starry eyed]

Question: why do we completely disregard solo practitioners?

1) it's not a great way to break into the profession (high risk, lack of capital, lack of consistent income, lots of debt, no attorney skills, malpractice risk, lack of business/marketing savvy, etc)
2) it's something a lot of grads who couldn't find jobs do
3) any moron can do it

I think having a solo practice could be a lot of fun and maybe at some point in my life I would seriously consider it, but it's just not a good outcome for a fresh graduate under the vast majority of circumstances.

Also, if a freshly minted JD can truly make that work, and build a consistent, medium to high income, stable solo-practice from scratch, she/he did well, but that doesn't mean his/her law school did well. You're already allowed to start your own business.

I'm pretty sure law firms have one of the highest success rates for still being around after 5 years (compared to other things like restaurants)- but having debt and being a fresh grad w/no exp would probably bring that statistic down.

[MNbound]

Data will be up on LST tomorrow morning.

This is a pretty minor issue, but on the William Mitchell Job Trends tab, it lists short-term and part-time employment as 46.2%. According to the ABA report, the actual short-term and part-time number is 14.8%.

[jenesaislaw]

Data will be up on LST tomorrow morning.

This is a pretty minor issue, but on the William Mitchell Job Trends tab, it lists short-term and part-time employment as 46.2%. According to the ABA report, the actual short-term and part-time number is 14.8%.

Not a minor issue at all, thanks for pointing it out. Currently working on this exact bug.

[jenesaislaw]

fixed

[storpappa]

Why would a recent graduate of the Class of 2014, not show up in the job surveys as being in a law firm of 1 attorney?

They went to school, for three years, and graduated.
Now they are not working anywhere that shows up on the job numbers reports, just underemployed, unemployed or not reporting.

For those individuals, why are they not hanging up a shingle on the side of the their house, and answering the survey, "Law firm, 1 attorney"? Does putting up that shingle remove you from ongoing, if there are any, placement help from the law school?

If I give up 3 years of my life, and the only job I can get is taking your drink orders, I will be telling people I am a lawyer of 1, and trying to start something, if for nothing else, the chance to do random pro bono work and the experience. When someone at the drive thru says "Hey aren't you a lawyer?
I can easily think of several spin answers about wanting to help regular people and that I wasn't looking for the Big Law world, and here is your change.


I know when looking at the job numbers, we are looking for things like 100+, or the Federal Clerk positions, instead of State. I have a good idea on that stuff.

What I don't understand is why the law firm of 1 attorney isn't the lumping bucket of last resort, and no one in the unemployed.

[rion91]

Why would a recent graduate of the Class of 2014, not show up in the job surveys as being in a law firm of 1 attorney?

They went to school, for three years, and graduated.
Now they are not working anywhere that shows up on the job numbers reports, just underemployed, unemployed or not reporting.

For those individuals, why are they not hanging up a shingle on the side of the their house, and answering the survey, "Law firm, 1 attorney"? Does putting up that shingle remove you from ongoing, if there are any, placement help from the law school?

If I give up 3 years of my life, and the only job I can get is taking your drink orders, I will be telling people I am a lawyer of 1, and trying to start something, if for nothing else, the chance to do random pro bono work and the experience. When someone at the drive thru says "Hey aren't you a lawyer?
I can easily think of several spin answers about wanting to help regular people and that I wasn't looking for the Big Law world, and here is your change.


I know when looking at the job numbers, we are looking for things like 100+, or the Federal Clerk positions, instead of State. I have a good idea on that stuff.

What I don't understand is why the law firm of 1 attorney isn't the lumping bucket of last resort, and no one in the unemployed.

I would think hanging up a shingle would be quite expensive upfront. Also opportunity cost of finding clients vs. searching for a job maybe?

[Moneytrees]

Starting your own business is hard and many attorneys, while generally fairly bright and hard working, probably have no idea how where to even begin. Spending 3 years in a library reading and writing about arcane legal topics doesn't exactly prepare attorneys for the challenges associated with starting your own practice.

[storpappa]

I do understand the issues and risks about starting a business, any business. And the failure rates. My question wasn't about that.

It was about a response on a post graduation survey

Hi, after 3 years and tens of thousands of dollars, are you -
A - employed in a great job as an attorney at ______
B - unemployed,
C - working as a barista
D - a sole practitioner attorney and lead partner of the Law Firm of Me, Myself & I

What does saying B or C get someone that D doesn't?

I can easily be D while looking for A

[BigZuck]

I do understand the issues and risks about starting a business, any business. And the failure rates. My question wasn't about that.

It was about a response on a post graduation survey

Hi, after 3 years and tens of thousands of dollars, are you -
A - employed in a great job as an attorney at ______
B - unemployed,
C - working as a barista
D - a sole practitioner attorney and lead partner of the Law Firm of Me, Myself & I

What does saying B or C get someone that D doesn't?

I can easily be D while looking for A

You're asking why don't people claim to be lawyers when they actually aren't?

Maybe because they don't want to lie? I dunno, that's the only reason I can think of.

[storpappa]

Again, why would someone be honest and say unemployed.... 9 and now 10 months after school is over? Are we supposed to look at the unemployed and take something from it? They didn't move from unemployed to firm of 1. Does that mean they didn't want to work, aren't motivated, broke a leg running on the Law School track team finals?

I know we look at the employed numbers -- I am asking what does the unemployed numbers mean?

Should I wonder about a school that admits people who are unemployed and non responders more then a school with people who are at least in a firm of 1? We so quickly ignore the firms under 100 for the COA and repayment of tuition factor. Has anyone looked at the other end of those reports, besides some random NYTimes article on the decline of lawyers or the 15% lawyer unemployed rate.

BigZuck, why would someone go to law school and NOT be a firm of 1, instead of unemployed?

[Cobretti]

Because the opportunity cost of not using that time to find any other job that would actually give them legal experience and increase their future employability is greater than the (nearly non-existent) benefits of hanging a shingle.

If you graduated at the bottom of your class at cooley and you know you don't have any actual prospects then maybe the opportunity cost is so low that it becomes an optimal choice though.

[storpappa]

I guess I am looking at it from this example

Daughter: "Storpappa, here is my new boyfriend Tommy"
Storpappa: "Hi Tommy, nice to meet you. What do you do for a living"
Tommy: "I graduated from law school 12 months ago and am looking for a job"
Storpappa: "12 months ago?"
Tommy: "Yes"
Storpappa: "Are you doing work on your own while looking? You know, to gain some experience, make money, make contacts or leads or get some pro-bono work from the State Bar?"
Tommy: "Nope, I am spending all my time looking for a job as a lawyer"
STAGE DIRECTION - Storpappa: Makes grinding teeth noises and looks to Mrs. Storpappa to save him from saying something mean

[LET'S GET IT]

Dude, you are missing the point here. Hanging a shingle while looking for a job is a terrible idea, and will probably be more expensive than just being unemployed. Also, you don't know what you are doing. Law school doesn't teach you how to practice law. I'm guessing you are a 0L? Any law student/lawyer will tell you that when you walk out of law school, you will be incredibly ill-equipped to start a firm. There is a high probability that even you even get any clients, you won't know how to take care of them, or will mess something up. Hanging a shingle so you can tell a girl's dad or anyone else that you are a lawyer is idiotic.

[BigZuck]

Yeah I'm not sure you understand what law school is/what it teaches you/the "skills" you learn and what being a solo practitioner is like.

We are getting dangerously close to laxbrah420 coming in here and talking about how easy it is to be a solo which will really take this thread to new heights.

If you're saying why don't they be successful solos, I think it's because that's hard/expensive and the chances of that working are probably a lot less than catching on with an employer. If you're asking why don't they lie, I think it's because lots of people don't like doing that.

[Johann]

I do understand the issues and risks about starting a business, any business. And the failure rates. My question wasn't about that.

It was about a response on a post graduation survey

Hi, after 3 years and tens of thousands of dollars, are you -
A - employed in a great job as an attorney at ______
B - unemployed,
C - working as a barista
D - a sole practitioner attorney and lead partner of the Law Firm of Me, Myself & I

What does saying B or C get someone that D doesn't?

I can easily be D while looking for A

When I gradUated and was working part time in a law office, on the side I was working on a couple of matters of my own clients. I would have taken client work but was not actively marketing or leasing office space. I always answered my survey as unemployed or underemployed because I believed that was the most accurate reflection of my employment status. Had I had clients enough to sustain a long term solo gig, I would have indicated solo. But I'm not going to say I'm a solo when I'm doing some pro bono litigation and writing a couple basic agreements for 5k a year.

[Moneytrees]

Telling your gf's dad that you operate a solo law firm out of your bedroom Better Call Saul style isn't exactly going to inspire awe.

It's sort of like that blogger that we all know who bombards your Facebook with Buzzfeed style articles instead of hustling and trying to get hired at a real publishing firm, website, etc.

[storpappa]

Telling your gf's dad that you operate a solo law firm out of your bedroom Better Call Saul style isn't exactly going to inspire awe.

It's sort of like that blogger that we all know who bombards your Facebook with Buzzfeed style articles instead of hustling and trying to get hired at a real publishing firm, website, etc.

SOunds better to have this then unemployed, IMHO

[rpupkin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqMbH31oQeI

[storpappa]

[youtube]YZoQFVVXV2s[/youtube]

2:25 is my favorite part

[rpupkin]

[youtube]YZoQFVVXV2s[/youtube]

2:25 is my favorite part

I prefer 6:25 - 6:45.

[eternalrest]

FYI: 2015 data is starting to post https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/54 ... nt-datapdf

[lymenheimer]

FYI: 2015 data is starting to post https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/54 ... nt-datapdf

This is the aggregating one for 2015 grads: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p9267942