for those deciding between law school and med school......

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:31 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:I just want a relatively chill life of little "real" work, except making a lot more money than I do now (like what I imagine people in business/finance to do, which is a lot of bullshit).
I just want a job where I do little to no real work (just do bullshit) and get paid a lot of money....I just want to be independently wealthy.

And I would like a flying unicorn.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:55 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Oh boy, nothing pisses off lawyers or future lawyers more than talking about how unfathomably shitty legal careers are compared to medical careers. Lawyers in general don't like to be told they are inferior/wrong about stuff, and they DEFINITELY won't acknowledge that their careers are a joke compared to people who do shit that actually matters, like saving lives.

There's a vast swath of dumbasses who law schools graduate every year. These dumbasses are allowed to pass a hilariously easy test called the bar exam and hold themselves out as "professionals." This mass of dumbasses drags down the average salaries of attorneys and makes attorneys have to work incredibly long, hard hours to make money that even comes close to what an average doc makes working half the number of hours.


Doctors don't work half the hours of lawyers, at least not if they make any money. Most doctors work equal to or in excess of what BigLaw attorneys work, and medical residents work around 100-120 hours a week

Do you ever post anything useful? or is every thread just another chance for you to talk about how much you hate the legal profession


Here is an example of a mad as fuck attorney or law student literally just making shit up to make him/herself feel better about being too dumb to become a doctor.


I hate my life just as much as the next biglawyer, but the average doctor isn't that smart (albeit smarter than the average lawyer). T-14 students/grads are probably a lot smarter than the average doctor. If you can get into a T-14 on merit, you can get into med school. Something like 50% of med school applicants get into med school - I mean, c'mon - 50%. It isn't rocket science; it's pure memorization.


I disagree. I was very mediocre in college and did very well at my T14, mostly because I think the law students at my T14 were dumber (on average) than the college students I competed against. I know a number of people who feel the same way.

You look at the amount of work you need to get through just to become a doctor and realize that it's a lot harder just by the sheer volume of shit you have to get through. The LSAT is a quick sprint by comparison. You can train your mind to do very well on the LSAT for a few hours, but this says nothing about your ability to internalize a vast amount of information (which is really what you need to succeed in a profession like law or medicine where you have to give people advice based on your past experience/knowledge).

juzam_djinn
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby juzam_djinn » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:50 pm

jeez this thread has fully achieved the OP's troll goal- draw out a bunch of bitters to bicker over meaningless crap

why are people romanticizing finance so much? sure the top financiers are making more than the top lawyers, but the vast majority of us won't ever get to be either and life for those who aren't at the top is generally interchangeable, so why do we bother making this comparison?

and why are people trying to argue against the FACT that outside of a handful of guys and gals, doctors/lawyers/biz people are essentially equal and fungible MEDIOCRES who went on cookie cutter paths and are, on average, DUMBS compared to engineers/physicists/top scientists? hth

bdubs
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby bdubs » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:35 pm

This guy is a prime example of why healthcare costs way too much in this country.

Eventually reform will come to medicine and the salary for a run of the mill doctor will decrease by a lot. The politicians will get past the doctors' lobby and expand the size of med schools, maybe let in more foreign trained doctors too. Doctors and hospitals will also have to deal more with the government as a payor and won't have nearly as much negotiating leverage. If you're planning the 7+ year investment in a medical career it's certainly something to consider.

Law is already highly competitive, and the salaries at the very top of the market are high like other high stakes fields. The salaries at the low end of the pay range are pitiful. That isn't going to change much.

juzam_djinn
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby juzam_djinn » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:58 pm

bdubs wrote:This guy is a prime example of why healthcare costs way too much in this country.

Eventually reform will come to medicine and the salary for a run of the mill doctor will decrease by a lot. The politicians will get past the doctors' lobby and expand the size of med schools, maybe let in more foreign trained doctors too. Doctors and hospitals will also have to deal more with the government as a payor and won't have nearly as much negotiating leverage. If you're planning the 7+ year investment in a medical career it's certainly something to consider.

Law is already highly competitive, and the salaries at the very top of the market are high like other high stakes fields. The salaries at the low end of the pay range are pitiful. That isn't going to change much.


that's assuming we believe this troll; there are def a lot of random primary care or family med people making huge salaries out in "are country," but in general the median salary surveys are pretty accurate and med is a lot less bimodal than law when it comes to the salary distributions

and just to get something straight, I have a lot of respect (as should everyone) for primary care physicians who go into the field b/c they want to make a difference in everyday lives (e.g. through pushing preventative care). If OP is serious, then he sounds like one of those doctors that went into the field b/c they measured their lives in terms of prestige and pay, and then got owned b/c he realized there are others out there who make more $$ than him. I certainly don't think all doctors are like this...but a not insignificant # probably are

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:24 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
I disagree. I was very mediocre in college and did very well at my T14, mostly because I think the law students at my T14 were dumber (on average) than the college students I competed against. I know a number of people who feel the same way.

You look at the amount of work you need to get through just to become a doctor and realize that it's a lot harder just by the sheer volume of shit you have to get through. The LSAT is a quick sprint by comparison. You can train your mind to do very well on the LSAT for a few hours, but this says nothing about your ability to internalize a vast amount of information (which is really what you need to succeed in a profession like law or medicine where you have to give people advice based on your past experience/knowledge).


Were you a physics major at MIT/Caltech or something? I went to a top 10 undergrad (not MIT/Caltech though, so probably a lot easier than tech schools), studied a science, got a relatively high GPA, and still thought students at my T-14, at the very least, worked a lot harder.

I have a lot of friends who are residents or in medical school and they tell me it's 100% memorization. They are "okay smart" too - not that smart. The smartest friends are now in academia or engineers. Med school is about a lot of grinding IMO. As long as you're above average intelligence, I think anyone can grind their way through med school. Also, most med schools are pass/fail - all you need is a C to become a doctor and something like 98% of people pass the Step 1...I think med students are just whiny IMO and never had a real job (like biglaw where they work you to death). You can probably find ways to game the system (like don't go to class, study purely from old notes, etc.) to save a lot of time in med school and get at least passing grades by studying the important material. You won't end up being a dermatologist, but you'll still end up being a family med doctor or whatever.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:32 pm

bdubs wrote:This guy is a prime example of why healthcare costs way too much in this country.

Eventually reform will come to medicine and the salary for a run of the mill doctor will decrease by a lot. The politicians will get past the doctors' lobby and expand the size of med schools, maybe let in more foreign trained doctors too. Doctors and hospitals will also have to deal more with the government as a payor and won't have nearly as much negotiating leverage. If you're planning the 7+ year investment in a medical career it's certainly something to consider.

Law is already highly competitive, and the salaries at the very top of the market are high like other high stakes fields. The salaries at the low end of the pay range are pitiful. That isn't going to change much.


They are already letting NPs and PAs do the same things as internal med/family med/ER physicians. I went to the emergency room last year and a PA examined me (not MD). Frankly, in my experience, a lot of the run of the mill family med doctors don't know what they are doing. I just look up my symptoms on the internet, tell them what I think it is, they tell me "I'm not sure - but let me get you some antibiotics" or "let me refer you to a specialist." NPs and PAs can easily do what a lot of the run of the mill doctors do, but for less money.

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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:54 pm

Some people in this thread don't seem to realize that residency is worse than big law in terms of hours (90-100 hrs a week with 30 hr stretches) for 3-5 years depending on your specialization. Unlike big law you are paid 40-50k. Becoming an md is no walk in the park because of the debt and there is absolutely no way to avoid extremely grinding residency.

suboxoneman
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby suboxoneman » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:45 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Some people in this thread don't seem to realize that residency is worse than big law in terms of hours (90-100 hrs a week with 30 hr stretches) for 3-5 years depending on your specialization. Unlike big law you are paid 40-50k. Becoming an md is no walk in the park because of the debt and there is absolutely no way to avoid extremely grinding residency.


ummm no. Just like most of our parents didn't walk in the snow 8 miles barefoot to get to school, most physicians(at least who went to med school after the 70s) didn't work '90-100 hrs a week'. The CAP for all fields is actually 80 now, but except for a few rare fields at some programs you won't approach 80 hr week averages.

Most of the residents in my program averaged 50 as interns, 40-45 as pgy2s depending ont he rotation, and then sometimes as few as 25 3rd year(depending on rotation). Which opens up a ton of time for moonlighting.

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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby bearsfan23 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:29 pm

suboxoneman wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Some people in this thread don't seem to realize that residency is worse than big law in terms of hours (90-100 hrs a week with 30 hr stretches) for 3-5 years depending on your specialization. Unlike big law you are paid 40-50k. Becoming an md is no walk in the park because of the debt and there is absolutely no way to avoid extremely grinding residency.


ummm no. Just like most of our parents didn't walk in the snow 8 miles barefoot to get to school, most physicians(at least who went to med school after the 70s) didn't work '90-100 hrs a week'. The CAP for all fields is actually 80 now, but except for a few rare fields at some programs you won't approach 80 hr week averages.

Most of the residents in my program averaged 50 as interns, 40-45 as pgy2s depending ont he rotation, and then sometimes as few as 25 3rd year(depending on rotation). Which opens up a ton of time for moonlighting.




HAHAHHAAHAHAHHAHA now I know you're definitely a troll. Averaging 50 hours as a resident? Um, no.

Can you stop posting on TLS? Nobody cares about how much you love medical school

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alexjinye
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby alexjinye » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:40 pm

HAHA! Troll!!!!

From what I know, physicians' income roughly ranges from 80k+ to 300k+. It is a well-paid career, but also involves a lot of hard work like biglawyers.

FWIW, most physicians make lower than 300k annually.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby BiglawAssociate » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:38 pm

alexjinye wrote:HAHA! Troll!!!!

From what I know, physicians' income roughly ranges from 80k+ to 300k+. It is a well-paid career, but also involves a lot of hard work like biglawyers.

FWIW, most physicians make lower than 300k annually.


Is it bad that I think 300k is a shit salary given how much time and money you have to put into medicine? I probably spend too much time with people who make a shitload of money in finance/their own businesses, but I think doctors get paid shit relative to how much they have to sacrifice.

As far as I'm concerned, both professions are shit.

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alexjinye
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby alexjinye » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:10 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
alexjinye wrote:HAHA! Troll!!!!

From what I know, physicians' income roughly ranges from 80k+ to 300k+. It is a well-paid career, but also involves a lot of hard work like biglawyers.

FWIW, most physicians make lower than 300k annually.


Is it bad that I think 300k is a shit salary given how much time and money you have to put into medicine? I probably spend too much time with people who make a shitload of money in finance/their own businesses, but I think doctors get paid shit relative to how much they have to sacrifice.

As far as I'm concerned, both professions are shit.



then, what is the best profession that makes you easily rich and well-regarded? If there is a way, I will throw my PT workbooks into trash can RIGHT NOW!!!

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby BiglawAssociate » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:12 am

alexjinye wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
alexjinye wrote:HAHA! Troll!!!!

From what I know, physicians' income roughly ranges from 80k+ to 300k+. It is a well-paid career, but also involves a lot of hard work like biglawyers.

FWIW, most physicians make lower than 300k annually.


Is it bad that I think 300k is a shit salary given how much time and money you have to put into medicine? I probably spend too much time with people who make a shitload of money in finance/their own businesses, but I think doctors get paid shit relative to how much they have to sacrifice.

As far as I'm concerned, both professions are shit.



then, what is the best profession that makes you easily rich and well-regarded? If there is a way, I will throw my PT workbooks into trash can RIGHT NOW!!!


Not easily, but you wouldn't have to go to grad school or spend a lot of money on tuition ----> FINANCE. You make early six figs straight out of college. You work long hours (like biglaw), but if you're a trader you don't work weekends fwiw. There's more upward mobility too.

Also, some nurses make a lot of money straight out of undergrad............the hours are a lot better than law and there are a lot more jobs for nurses.

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alexjinye
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby alexjinye » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:20 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
alexjinye wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
alexjinye wrote:HAHA! Troll!!!!

From what I know, physicians' income roughly ranges from 80k+ to 300k+. It is a well-paid career, but also involves a lot of hard work like biglawyers.

FWIW, most physicians make lower than 300k annually.


Is it bad that I think 300k is a shit salary given how much time and money you have to put into medicine? I probably spend too much time with people who make a shitload of money in finance/their own businesses, but I think doctors get paid shit relative to how much they have to sacrifice.

As far as I'm concerned, both professions are shit.



then, what is the best profession that makes you easily rich and well-regarded? If there is a way, I will throw my PT workbooks into trash can RIGHT NOW!!!


Not easily, but you wouldn't have to go to grad school or spend a lot of money on tuition ----> FINANCE. You make early six figs straight out of college. You work long hours (like biglaw), but if you're a trader you don't work weekends fwiw. There's more upward mobility too.

Also, some nurses make a lot of money straight out of undergrad............the hours are a lot better than law and there are a lot more jobs for nurses.


Bummer, that's right. But I am just not a Math guy.

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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby Cogburn87 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:21 am

alexjinye wrote:then, what is the best profession that makes you easily rich and well-regarded? If there is a way, I will throw my PT workbooks into trash can RIGHT NOW!!!

yikes

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starry eyed
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby starry eyed » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:17 am

I wish I had majored in Finance. Right now i'd be looking for a corporate job somewhere instead of putting a seat deposit for law school. But for those of us that dicked around in high school and did not have the grades to go to Princeton, are there really that many opportunities for a state school grad in finance? Of course, Ivy league finance kids will have their pick among investment banks.

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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:25 am

starry eyed wrote:I wish I had majored in Finance. Right now i'd be looking for a corporate job somewhere instead of putting a seat deposit for law school. But for those of us that dicked around in high school and did not have the grades to go to Princeton, are there really that many opportunities for a state school grad in finance? Of course, Ivy league finance kids will have their pick among investment banks.


For what it's worth, this path is not easy at all. I have a friend who is very personable and has a Harvard MBA and has never made more than 150k in finance. The problem is that he is good not great at the math part of things. It would be interesting to see salary distributions for all finance graduates in the US, and my guess is that less than 1% are making 500k+.

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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby starry eyed » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:31 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
starry eyed wrote:I wish I had majored in Finance. Right now i'd be looking for a corporate job somewhere instead of putting a seat deposit for law school. But for those of us that dicked around in high school and did not have the grades to go to Princeton, are there really that many opportunities for a state school grad in finance? Of course, Ivy league finance kids will have their pick among investment banks.


For what it's worth, this path is not easy at all. I have a friend who is very personable and has a Harvard MBA and has never made more than 150k in finance. The problem is that he is good not great at the math part of things. It would be interesting to see salary distributions for all finance graduates in the US, and my guess is that less than 1% are making 500k+.


Interesting. I would think the math would apply more at the lowest level (analyst), and that once someone has an MBA, their 'technical' responsibilities would decrease.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:37 am

starry eyed wrote:I wish I had majored in Finance. Right now i'd be looking for a corporate job somewhere instead of putting a seat deposit for law school. But for those of us that dicked around in high school and did not have the grades to go to Princeton, are there really that many opportunities for a state school grad in finance? Of course, Ivy league finance kids will have their pick among investment banks.

There aren't many opportunities, no. Unless by "finance" you mean working at the Scottrade call center or being one of the thousands of failed (and soon to be failing) schmucks who works as a "financial advisor" for Ameriprise. Those are available to any college graduate but I'm not sure they are quite what the dude above was referring to.

Shit my sister makes 400k in "finance" at a car dealership and she has like a middle school education. But that's because it's just sales and she can sell. But if you can sell you can sell dishwashers at Sears or Xerox copiers or John Hancock retirement plans and make good money doing any of it. Unfortunately the "finance" jobs available to people from non-elite schools are typically just glorified sales jobs if you want to make any money.

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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby FSK » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:16 am

One of the harsh truths I think TLS misses in a bigway is that Law School is a "second chance" to get into a competitive field. I'm not saying its a good shot, but its a chance.

Consider someone who dicked around in high school and couldn't get into a T20 university. They're basically fucked if they want a lucrative career in finance, consulting, etc. They could have gone into engineering or computer science (and only engineer, because life sciences are also a huge trap), and had better job prospects. But still, the most lucrative jobs in those fields want top graduates from top schools. I would be comfortable assuming that in almost every career, if you fuck around in high school you've put yourself at some insurmountable disadvantage going forward. Even Business School care

Of course, these kids need to take some personal responsibility for their choices. But lets say they do go to that state school or middling private school and get pretty good grades. They can take one standardized, learnable test, and go to a "good" law school at that point. Nothing in their background, short of C&F type issues, is going to seriously hinder them if they have GPA + LSAT. Many of these kids (and that includes me) see that chance and take it. Its a clearly defined path to a career, even if its a shit one.

That second chance is worth a lot. It costs only 3 years of your life and a lot of debt, which you can do a lot to avoid in modern admissions cycles.

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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby Cogburn87 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:41 am

flawschoolkid wrote:One of the harsh truths I think TLS misses in a bigway is that Law School is a "second chance" to get into a competitive field. I'm not saying its a good shot, but its a chance.

Consider someone who dicked around in high school and couldn't get into a T20 university. They're basically fucked if they want a lucrative career in finance, consulting, etc. They could have gone into engineering or computer science (and only engineer, because life sciences are also a huge trap), and had better job prospects. But still, the most lucrative jobs in those fields want top graduates from top schools. I would be comfortable assuming that in almost every career, if you fuck around in high school you've put yourself at some insurmountable disadvantage going forward. Even Business School care

Of course, these kids need to take some personal responsibility for their choices. But lets say they do go to that state school or middling private school and get pretty good grades. They can take one standardized, learnable test, and go to a "good" law school at that point. Nothing in their background, short of C&F type issues, is going to seriously hinder them if they have GPA + LSAT. Many of these kids (and that includes me) see that chance and take it. Its a clearly defined path to a career, even if its a shit one.

That second chance is worth a lot. It costs only 3 years of your life and a lot of debt, which you can do a lot to avoid in modern admissions cycles.


I'm not sure "it's a second chance for people who are kinda dumb and/or lazy to work an awful white-collar job and be miserable" is the best endorsement.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:50 am

flawschoolkid wrote:One of the harsh truths I think TLS misses in a bigway is that Law School is a "second chance" to get into a competitive field. I'm not saying its a good shot, but its a chance.

Consider someone who dicked around in high school and couldn't get into a T20 university. They're basically fucked if they want a lucrative career in finance, consulting, etc. They could have gone into engineering or computer science (and only engineer, because life sciences are also a huge trap), and had better job prospects. But still, the most lucrative jobs in those fields want top graduates from top schools. I would be comfortable assuming that in almost every career, if you fuck around in high school you've put yourself at some insurmountable disadvantage going forward. Even Business School care

Of course, these kids need to take some personal responsibility for their choices. But lets say they do go to that state school or middling private school and get pretty good grades. They can take one standardized, learnable test, and go to a "good" law school at that point. Nothing in their background, short of C&F type issues, is going to seriously hinder them if they have GPA + LSAT. Many of these kids (and that includes me) see that chance and take it. Its a clearly defined path to a career, even if its a shit one.

That second chance is worth a lot. It costs only 3 years of your life and a lot of debt, which you can do a lot to avoid in modern admissions cycles.

I get this argument, and it's part of why I ended up in law after a previous career. But I'm not sure that choosing a career just because it has a clearly defined path is a great way to run your life. I think it's a pretty narrow view of work and career. I realize this is going to sound boomer-ish, but you can get crap jobs in various industries and build skills and figure out what you're actually good at and what you actually like to do.

I also get why people don't do that, but there's nothing that says you have to come out of college into a clearly-defined career path. You're likely not going to follow it for the rest of your life anyway.

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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby RZ5646 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:09 am

flawschoolkid wrote:One of the harsh truths I think TLS misses in a bigway is that Law School is a "second chance" to get into a competitive field. I'm not saying its a good shot, but its a chance.

Consider someone who dicked around in high school and couldn't get into a T20 university. They're basically fucked if they want a lucrative career in finance, consulting, etc. They could have gone into engineering or computer science (and only engineer, because life sciences are also a huge trap), and had better job prospects. But still, the most lucrative jobs in those fields want top graduates from top schools. I would be comfortable assuming that in almost every career, if you fuck around in high school you've put yourself at some insurmountable disadvantage going forward. Even Business School care

Of course, these kids need to take some personal responsibility for their choices. But lets say they do go to that state school or middling private school and get pretty good grades. They can take one standardized, learnable test, and go to a "good" law school at that point. Nothing in their background, short of C&F type issues, is going to seriously hinder them if they have GPA + LSAT. Many of these kids (and that includes me) see that chance and take it. Its a clearly defined path to a career, even if its a shit one.

That second chance is worth a lot. It costs only 3 years of your life and a lot of debt, which you can do a lot to avoid in modern admissions cycles.


This is basically my view, though I don't think going to Big State U instead of a finance target school necessarily means that you "fucked around in high school"; nor does it mean that you're lazy and dumb, as another poster obnoxiously suggested.

You shouldn't blame a kid for not going to an elite undergrad. When he's is 17 and applying to college, he might not know to study for the SAT (or have the money for prep materials), might not have ambitious parents (or college-educated parents at all) pushing him to apply to Ivies, might not have a "personal statement coach," SAT tutor, or any of those other expensive assistants, etc. Getting into an elite college involves a lot of cultural and familial factors, not just intelligence and work ethic, so students should not be blamed for "undermatching."

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Re: for those deciding between law school and med school......

Postby Cogburn87 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:20 pm

RZ5646 wrote:This is basically my view, though I don't think going to Big State U instead of a finance target school necessarily means that you "fucked around in high school"; nor does it mean that you're lazy and dumb, as another poster obnoxiously suggested.

I suggested nothing of the sort. I was mocking the hypothetical presented, which was used to argue that law is a great option for people who apparently make career decisions by selecting between obvious, well-defined paths (for those deciding between law school and med school......) rather than what they actually want to do for a living. If the primary reason you enroll in law school is that it's a straightforward way to a white-collar job, then you haven't thought very hard about what you want to do with your career and your life.




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