lowest ranked school you would settle for?

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JCougar
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:34 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
JCougar wrote:IOW, law schools are still flatly lying about even the 57% number. According to these stats, that number is actually a lot closer to 46%. And a good number of those 46% are at highly unstable small firms or at big firms with high turnover. This number is a lot more consistent with the anecdotal evidence I have seen.

I'm not sure why this data is necessarily better than NALP's. It's hard to tell from their site, but it appears they are just estimating the total number of jobs and could be off by a fair amount.

If they are right, then chances are many of the jobs that take us from NALP's number down to EMSI's would be in that unstable small firm category, so be careful not to double count your winnings.


And also, these stats only account for ABA-accredited law schools. The market is even more flooded if you consider the swath of unaccredited law grads trying to get their foot into the door of whatever shitlaw they can find. This problem is worse in some states than it is in others, and these people aren't likely to take any job that could possibly go to a T13 grad, but the few that do get jobs just make it all the more hard for everyone else to find something--anything--that even remotely resembles a lawyer job.

If you ask me, 40% of all law grads getting actual lawyer jobs isn't pessimistic. And then of course more than half of that is shitlaw.

jebsterb
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby jebsterb » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:45 pm

Winston1984 wrote:
jebsterb wrote:If you want to be even a little competitive nationally I'd attend the highest ranked public Big10 school that offers you a full ride.

But that's if I'm being arbitrary and putting a line on the list. Generally, the highest ranked school that will cost you the least amount of money is the rule of thumb to live by. And nothing outside the top 50 unless you want to be in the specific school's market.

Why Big10? One national championship and you guys think you are hot shit.


It honestly was mostly artificial. I tried to indicate that I was only picking them because the question required some definitive choice. Though really, as a general statement they aren't the worst places if you simply must go to law school. The towns/cities they're on are uniformly affordable so you can keep you cost of living low, they are (generally) pretty good to decent schools are worst, and at least have a name employers might recognize more than some other local schools.

Hell you have better employment outcomes coming out of Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Indiana than you do at BU or Notre Dame and if you go for free you'll be $150,000 less in debt.

Michigan's a bit of an outlier, if you get in full-ride there you're probably deciding between schools higher up on the list. If you get into Michigan with no scholarship I'm hesitant to say it's worth the money.

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pamphleteer
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby pamphleteer » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:38 am

jebsterb wrote:Hell you have better employment outcomes coming out of Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Indiana than you do at BU or Notre Dame and if you go for free you'll be $150,000 less in debt.


Wait, what? This isn't true.

jebsterb
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby jebsterb » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:05 am

pamphleteer wrote:
jebsterb wrote:Hell you have better employment outcomes coming out of Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Indiana than you do at BU or Notre Dame and if you go for free you'll be $150,000 less in debt.


Wait, what? This isn't true.


Quick and dirty using lawschooltransparency's percentage grading:

Notre Dame: 71.2% employment score
BU: 66.9%
Iowa: 76.3%
Illinois: 72.3%
Minnesota: 69%
Indiana: 62.8%

Mea Culpa, I was quite off with Indiana, and half-right with Minnesota.

That said, you're far more likely to get a full or nearly full ride from either Illinois or Iowa than Notre Dame or BU. Even if you get no money, they schools cost less up front and COA is much lower. The one criteria that Illinois and Iowa can't compete in is BigLaw jobs. There isn't any way around that I suppose, but it's kind of a cheap comparison when students going into biglaw at BU or ND don't have a choice because their debt load is so high. Iowa for example has more than 100 fewer students than either of those schools per graduating class and sends an equal number to federal clerkships. This is a personal preference thing, but I'd rather have the financial freedom to apply for the jobs I want rather than be forced to apply to jobs I need.

But this is a personal decision, that's just my two cents.
Last edited by jebsterb on Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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pamphleteer
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby pamphleteer » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:07 am

Oh yeah, I was mostly thinking biglaw employment. ND's BL+FC% (33.7) is better than any of Minnesota/Iowa/Illinois/Indiana. BU's (26.6) beats all but Illinois.

Moneytrees
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby Moneytrees » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:27 pm

BU and ND have better outcomes than any of the schools you mentioned. You can't just look at one year in a vacuum. BU used to consistently be in the top 20 for Biglaw placement before the recession, and as of late their numbers have been picking up steam and are coming close to reaching pre-recession levels. Same thing with ND, who places a substantial number of students into clerkships every year.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:13 pm

Honestly, I would just feel embarrassed going to any school outside of the T14. That's just me personally, though.

BigZuck
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:34 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Honestly, I would just feel embarrassed going to any school outside of the T14. That's just me personally, though.

(GULC apologist)

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r1tlv50
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby r1tlv50 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:22 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Honestly, I would just feel embarrassed going to any school outside of the T14. That's just me personally, though.


Should the editors of the UCLA or UT law reviews that have Fed clerkship spots locked up feel more embarrassed than the 55-60% of Gtown that misses biglaw/fed clerk?

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:30 pm

r1tlv50 wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Honestly, I would just feel embarrassed going to any school outside of the T14. That's just me personally, though.


Should the editors of the UCLA or UT law reviews that have Fed clerkship spots locked up feel more embarrassed than the 55-60% of Gtown that misses biglaw/fed clerk?


I said I would feel embarrassed. Now, that embarrassment might very well drive me to strive hard enough to get LR, clerkship, etc. But I would still be embarrassed until I achieved success (which is extremely hard to do at schools like UCLA/UT where lots of students have chips on their shoulders).

It's not like I'm the first person to use the T14 demarcation as the dividing line between smart people and not-as-smart people.

BigZuck
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:40 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
r1tlv50 wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Honestly, I would just feel embarrassed going to any school outside of the T14. That's just me personally, though.


Should the editors of the UCLA or UT law reviews that have Fed clerkship spots locked up feel more embarrassed than the 55-60% of Gtown that misses biglaw/fed clerk?


I said I would feel embarrassed. Now, that embarrassment might very well drive me to strive hard enough to get LR, clerkship, etc. I would still be embarrassed until I achieved success (which is extremely hard to do at schools like UCLA/UT where lots of students have chips on their shoulders), however.

It's not like I'm the first person to use the T14 demarcation as the dividing line between smart people and not-as-smart people.

I do think it has to be more embarrassing for UCLA kids though. People in California know that there are at least 2, maybe 3 better law schools in the state. At least in Texas everyone's kool aid is burnt orange. It's easier to pull one over on the rubes.

When it comes to people that matter though, yeah, both would probably be equally embarrassing when it comes time to admit that's where you went to law school.

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r1tlv50
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby r1tlv50 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:44 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
r1tlv50 wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Honestly, I would just feel embarrassed going to any school outside of the T14. That's just me personally, though.


Should the editors of the UCLA or UT law reviews that have Fed clerkship spots locked up feel more embarrassed than the 55-60% of Gtown that misses biglaw/fed clerk?


I said I would feel embarrassed. Now, that embarrassment might very well drive me to strive hard enough to get LR, clerkship, etc. I would still be embarrassed until I achieved success (which is extremely hard to do at schools like UCLA/UT where lots of students have chips on their shoulders).

It's not like I'm the first person to use the T14 demarcation as the dividing line between smart people and not-as-smart people.


There is definitely (for better or worse) a different reaction that most in this field have to t14 v. non-t14. Then again, if I knew someone was paying sticker at most schools, I'd have a different reaction to them, too (in part bc I'm very debt averse and would question their judgment/priorities).

At the end of the day, a lot of these differences boil down to a couple LSAT questions, which in turn could not even be a meaningful difference in intelligence (based on those bands that LSAC puts out).

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:29 am

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Honestly, I would just feel embarrassed going to any school outside of the T14. That's just me personally, though.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:It's not like I'm the first person to use the T14 demarcation as the dividing line between smart people and not-as-smart people.

ugh

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:47 am

biglaw associate is annoying pls ban

ub3r
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ub3r » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:23 am

BigZuck wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
r1tlv50 wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Honestly, I would just feel embarrassed going to any school outside of the T14. That's just me personally, though.


Should the editors of the UCLA or UT law reviews that have Fed clerkship spots locked up feel more embarrassed than the 55-60% of Gtown that misses biglaw/fed clerk?


I said I would feel embarrassed. Now, that embarrassment might very well drive me to strive hard enough to get LR, clerkship, etc. I would still be embarrassed until I achieved success (which is extremely hard to do at schools like UCLA/UT where lots of students have chips on their shoulders), however.

It's not like I'm the first person to use the T14 demarcation as the dividing line between smart people and not-as-smart people.

I do think it has to be more embarrassing for UCLA kids though. People in California know that there are at least 2, maybe 3 better law schools in the state. At least in Texas everyone's kool aid is burnt orange. It's easier to pull one over on the rubes.

When it comes to people that matter though, yeah, both would probably be equally embarrassing when it comes time to admit that's where you went to law school.

I think this is a troll post, but what's this third better school in California? USC?

BigZuck
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby BigZuck » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:59 am

Probably depends on how well-bred you are but yeah, some might consider USC to be better

Moneytrees
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby Moneytrees » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:49 am

Most people in California consider USC to be just as good of a school as UCLA.

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romothesavior
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby romothesavior » Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:29 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Honestly, I would just feel embarrassed going to any school outside of the T14. That's just me personally, though.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:It's not like I'm the first person to use the T14 demarcation as the dividing line between smart people and not-as-smart people.

ugh

What a fucktard

rwhyAn
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby rwhyAn » Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:46 am

romothesavior wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Honestly, I would just feel embarrassed going to any school outside of the T14. That's just me personally, though.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:It's not like I'm the first person to use the T14 demarcation as the dividing line between smart people and not-as-smart people.

ugh

What a fucktard


I didn't have any chance of getting into a T14, but I ended up going to my local state flagship, which is ranked in the 80s, at night. Granted, I could have gone to a tier 1 school, but I get to keep my job making a decent income, and my employer is paying 100% of my tuition. Maybe I should feel embarrassed by going to a school outside the T14, but I'm not nearly as embarrassed as people who went to a T14 and can't pay back their $250k+ debt.

FloridaCoastalorbust
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby FloridaCoastalorbust » Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:59 am

cooly, prob

Moneytrees
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby Moneytrees » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:12 am

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
r1tlv50 wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Honestly, I would just feel embarrassed going to any school outside of the T14. That's just me personally, though.


Should the editors of the UCLA or UT law reviews that have Fed clerkship spots locked up feel more embarrassed than the 55-60% of Gtown that misses biglaw/fed clerk?


I said I would feel embarrassed. Now, that embarrassment might very well drive me to strive hard enough to get LR, clerkship, etc. But I would still be embarrassed until I achieved success (which is extremely hard to do at schools like UCLA/UT where lots of students have chips on their shoulders).

It's not like I'm the first person to use the T14 demarcation as the dividing line between smart people and not-as-smart people.


Using the T14 as a demarcation between smart and non-smart people is a very dubious proposition. Depending on the year, it's sometimes harder to get into UCLA and Vanderbilt than Cornell and Georgetown. Last year, UCLA's medians were more competitive than Cornell and Georgetown's, and it was on par with Cal's.

The difference in employment outcomes between T14 and most Tier 1 schools is pretty massive, but the difference in student body intellect is often negligible.

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pamphleteer
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby pamphleteer » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:52 pm

Yeah I got into a non-GULC T14 this cycle and was flat out rejected by UCLA. This shit has nothing to do with intelligence.

Anyway I'd be a lot more embarrassed to be paying back student loans into my late thirties than I would be taking a full ride at WUSTL or whatever.

hartfordhockaloogies
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby hartfordhockaloogies » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:59 pm

Vandy

BigZuck
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby BigZuck » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:12 pm

...Whoosh?

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:35 pm

I did not pay full price to go to my T14 (and it was not a lower T14), so I never really experienced what some of you are talking about re feeling dumb about paying sticker.

Look, you have to draw the line somewhere. There are caveats to everything. I hate how the same tiresome exceptions are brought up ad nauseam on this site. The T14 is the clearest historical dividing line between good schools and not-as-good schools. Deal with it.

BUT UCLA!

Shut up.




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