lowest ranked school you would settle for?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:38 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Look, you have to draw the line somewhere. There are caveats to everything. I hate how the same tiresome exceptions are brought up ad nauseam on this site. The T14 is the clearest historical dividing line between good schools and not-as-good schools. Deal with it.

You get that smart people can go to not-as-good schools, too, right?

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:40 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Look, you have to draw the line somewhere. There are caveats to everything. I hate how the same tiresome exceptions are brought up ad nauseam on this site. The T14 is the clearest historical dividing line between good schools and not-as-good schools. Deal with it.

You get that smart people can go to not-as-good schools, too, right?

Smart people also OD on drugs. What's your point?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:55 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Look, you have to draw the line somewhere. There are caveats to everything. I hate how the same tiresome exceptions are brought up ad nauseam on this site. The T14 is the clearest historical dividing line between good schools and not-as-good schools. Deal with it.

You get that smart people can go to not-as-good schools, too, right?

Smart people also OD on drugs. What's your point?

My point is that you sound like an ass.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:59 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:My point is that you sound like an ass.


I never said that EVERYONE who goes to a lower ranked school is dumber than EVERYONE who goes to a T14. It would be retarded to think that. Of course we're talking about the average student at each of these schools.

I don't know why you think I sound like an ass. Why is it wrong to point out that T14s have smarter students (on average) than non-T14s or that T14s are better (overall and on average) than non-T14s?

Another way to look at it is this: the T14s generally give you about a 50/50 shot or better at getting biglaw, BIGFED or prestigious clerkship jobs. I would feel embarrassed going to a school where I had a less than 50/50 shot at a decent job (with "decent" being defined according to my own personal opinion of what is not a god awful, shitty law job).
Last edited by ExBiglawAssociate on Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ReasonableNprudent
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ReasonableNprudent » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:59 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse"[quote="Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Look, you have to draw the line somewhere. There are caveats to everything. I hate how the same tiresome exceptions are brought up ad nauseam on this site. The T14 is the clearest historical dividing line between good schools and not-as-good schools. Deal with it.

You get that smart people can go to not-as-good schools, too, right?

Smart people also OD on drugs. What's your point?

My point is that you sound like an ass.[/quote]

Imagine actually having to put up witht his person in rl. I feel bad for the people that know him/her.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:01 pm

ReasonableNprudent wrote:Imagine actually having to put up witht his person in rl. I feel bad for the people that know him/her.


Just let the waves of butthurt wash over you.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:07 pm

See, I get that we can draw distinctions between schools based on the outcomes generally available to their students. I think that saying you'd be embarrassed to attend a school with outcomes below a certain level sounds snotty. I get not wanting to go to that school if that's not a risk that's worth it to you, but embarrassment is a bit much. Also I think drawing some kind of hard line at T14 in terms of student quality and embarrassment level is silly.

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ReasonableNprudent
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ReasonableNprudent » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:08 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
ReasonableNprudent wrote:Imagine actually having to put up witht his person in rl. I fIt' bad for the people that know him/her.


Just let the waves of butthurt wash over you.


Ah, you continue to display your winning charm and personality.
Hardly butthurt, amigo. I actually legitimately feel bad for you. You espouse a certain Charlie Sheen-esque arrogance.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:14 pm

Almost everyone who posts here would (or should) feel embarrassed about going to Cooley, for example. I personally draw the line at T14, for a lot of different reasons. But you're lying if you say you wouldn't feel embarrassed going to *any* law school.

I interviewed people trying to get associate jobs at my biglaw firm all the time. The ones who came from non-T14s had tippy top grades and were every bit as smart as the ones who came from T14s. I am not disparaging everyone at lower ranked schools. I am simply saying that I, personally, would feel embarrassed about having to explain to people (first and foremost, my spouse) why I wanted to go to a law school that afforded me less than a 50/50 shot at a decent law job. It's not snotty to feel embarrassed about this at all. It's completely rational.

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ReasonableNprudent
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ReasonableNprudent » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:28 pm

Biglais_Associate_V20 wrote:Almost everyone who posts here would (or should) feel embarrassed about going to Cooley, for example. I personally draw the line at T14, for a lot of different rngeasons. But you're lying if you say you wouldn't feel embarrassed going to *any* law school.

I interviewed people trying to get associate jobs at my biglaw firm all the time. The ones who came from non-T14s had tippy top grades and were every bit as smart as the ones who came from T14s. I am not disparaging everyone at lower ranked schools. I am simply saying that I, personally, would feel embarrassed about having to explain to people (first and foremost, my spouse) why I wanted to go to a law school that afforded me less than a 50/50 shot at a decent law job. It's not snotty to feel embarrassed about this at all. It's completely rational.


I don't disagree. You just had an especially objectionable way of saying all of this in several of your earlier posts.

Most of us have a bottom. And it's even ok to state it; that's the point of the thread. It is a little arrogant to draw that distinction at t14 and take a blatant hard line stance distinguishing that as the mark between smart people and not-so-smart people.

Personally, I'd draw the cutoff at a strong regional around 50 or above for near free or a sole regional below that for the same, scaled loosely to somewhere around top 5 at sticker. Many people have goals in law other than biglaw, big fed, or prestigious clerkships.

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pancakes3
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby pancakes3 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:30 pm

I think where it gets objectionable is that where the "stink" of a non-T14 doesn't wash off despite "tippy top grades".

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ReasonableNprudent
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ReasonableNprudent » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:38 pm

pancakes3 wrote:I think where it gets objectionable is that where the "stink" of a non-T14 doesn't wash off despite "tippy top grades".


Lol Yes. I think even the most accomplished biglaw partners/justices/and academics with HYS degress would say such statements are foolish and espouse snot-nosed arrogance. Maybe not Scalia.

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JCougar
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby JCougar » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:53 pm

I get what Biglaw Associate is saying, but I think T14 is the wrong dividing line. It's at least binomial, with school rank and total debt taken out to attend that school factored in.

For example, you are an idiot for attending GULC at full tuition these days. You are also probably an idiot for doing the same at Columbia. I could probably justify going to some sort of T13 if you have enough of a scholarship. But mostly, I would stick to the T7 or so.

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ReasonableNprudent
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ReasonableNprudent » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:30 pm

I get it and I don't. It's not quite that the stink of a non-t14 won't wash off, it's that a non-t14 holder will never have the allure of a t14 degree. It matters to those that care, and the ones that care are predominately t14 holders and not all t14 holders will care. The vast majority of attorneys aren't concerned with t14 v. non-t14. There might be a distinction, but I dont think the line is clear. And the accomplishments of an attorney quickly become more important than the degree, but some degrees will get more opportunities than others.

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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby Username123 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:35 pm

I think this arbitrary "settle" of schools that you would attend has too many factors to come up with an agreement.

For example, someone who is Biglaw or bust should have a cutoff somewhere in the T14. But even then, it's not all relative. Michigan at sticker doesn't equal Columbia at sticker. Darrow at UVA might be favorable to some over sticker at Columbia.

Someone who isn't Biglaw/Bigfed/A3 Clerkship or bust would be making a reasonable choice by attending the flagship school in his or her home state (or state with strongest ties) over a "prestige" school at a much more expensive price.

Location matters. Price matters. Goals matter. Savings (and if fortunate enough, parents' willingness and ability to pay) matters. This argument is kind of ridiculous.

Comparing two people... one who chose UVA assuming 150K debt with the goal of biglaw or bust is just as reasonable as someone with strong ties to Louisiana attending LSU or Tulane for free with no biglaw or bust goal. Not sure how the latter would be "embarrassing."

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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ReasonableNprudent » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:44 pm

Uschoolqb10 wrote:I think this arbitrary "settle" of schools that you would attend has too many factors to come up with an agreement.

For example, someone who is Biglaw or bust should have a cutoff somewhere in the T14. But even then, it's not all relative. Michigan at sticker doesn't equal Columbia at sticker. Darrow at UVA might be favorable to some over sticker at Columbia.

Someone who isn't Biglaw/Bigfed/A3 Clerkship or bust would be making a reasonable choice by attending the flagship school in his or her home state (or state with strongest ties) over a "prestige" school at a much more expensive price.

Location matters. Price matters. Goals matter. Savings (and if fortunate enough, parents' willingness and ability to pay) matters. This argument is kind of ridiculous.

Comparing two people... one who chose UVA assuming 150K debt with the goal of biglaw or bust is just as reasonable as someone with strong ties to Louisiana attending LSU or Tulane for free with no biglaw or bust goal. Not sure how the latter would be "embarrassing."



Edit: Great insight.
Last edited by ReasonableNprudent on Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby JohannDeMann » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:56 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Almost everyone who posts here would (or should) feel embarrassed about going to Cooley, for example. I personally draw the line at T14, for a lot of different reasons. But you're lying if you say you wouldn't feel embarrassed going to *any* law school.

I interviewed people trying to get associate jobs at my biglaw firm all the time. The ones who came from non-T14s had tippy top grades and were every bit as smart as the ones who came from T14s. I am not disparaging everyone at lower ranked schools. I am simply saying that I, personally, would feel embarrassed about having to explain to people (first and foremost, my spouse) why I wanted to go to a law school that afforded me less than a 50/50 shot at a decent law job. It's not snotty to feel embarrassed about this at all. It's completely rational.


I actually think people who go T-14 are dumber than others. All it tells me is you had other career options and chose lawl or decided to pay a lot of money instead of going somewhere for free. People that go to T-14 schools saying other should be embarassed about going to T3 is the equivalent of a 7 year old still shitting his pants making fun of the 8 year old still shitting his pants. Neither have room to talk.

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ReasonableNprudent
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ReasonableNprudent » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:59 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Almost everyone who posts here would (or should) feel embarrassed about going to Cooley, for example. I personally draw the line at T14, for a lot of different reasons. But you're lying if you say you wouldn't feel embarrassed going to *any* law school.

I interviewed people trying to get associate jobs at my biglaw firm all the time. The ones who came from non-T14s had tippy top grades and were every bit as smart as the ones who came from T14s. I am not disparaging everyone at lower ranked schools. I am simply saying that I, personally, would feel embarrassed about having to explain to people (first and foremost, my spouse) why I wanted to go to a law school that afforded me less than a 50/50 shot at a decent law job. It's not snotty to feel embarrassed about this at all. It's completely rational.


I actually think people who go T-14 are dumber than others. All it tells me is you had other career options and chose lawl or decided to pay a lot of money instead of going somewhere for free. People that go to T-14 schools saying other should be embarassed about going to T3 is the equivalent of a 7 year old still shitting his pants making fun of the 8 year old still shitting his pants. Neither have room to talk.


Backhanded compliment: that's the first thing you've said that I've actually appreciated.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby JohannDeMann » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:01 pm

hello fellow pants-shitter. if you have to qualify your statement as a backhanded compliment its probably pretty weak.

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ReasonableNprudent
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ReasonableNprudent » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:05 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:hello fellow pants-shitter. if you have to qualify your statement as a backhanded compliment its probably pretty weak.


Lol. Just acknowleging the obvious, to let you know that I realize what I did there. :D

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:07 pm

ReasonableNprudent wrote:I get it and I don't. It's not quite that the stink of a non-t14 won't wash off, it's that a non-t14 holder will never have the allure of a t14 degree. It matters to those that care, and the ones that care are predominately t14 holders and not all t14 holders will care. The vast majority of attorneys aren't concerned with t14 v. non-t14. There might be a distinction, but I dont think the line is clear. And the accomplishments of an attorney quickly become more important than the degree, but some degrees will get more opportunities than others.


It should matter to anyone considering law school, and these are the people who read this particular forum. Job prospects should be your primary consideration when considering which law school to go to and prospects at the T14 are undeniably better than at non-T14 schools.

I agree with you that most attorneys do not care where other practicing attorneys went to law school. They do care, however, where law students who want to work at their firms are going to law school. Biglaw firms only interview at a handful of schools, primarily the T14 in addition to a handful of other schools that are cherry-picked based on the location of the firm's main office(s).

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:13 pm

Uschoolqb10 wrote:I think this arbitrary "settle" of schools that you would attend has too many factors to come up with an agreement.

For example, someone who is Biglaw or bust should have a cutoff somewhere in the T14. But even then, it's not all relative. Michigan at sticker doesn't equal Columbia at sticker. Darrow at UVA might be favorable to some over sticker at Columbia.

Someone who isn't Biglaw/Bigfed/A3 Clerkship or bust would be making a reasonable choice by attending the flagship school in his or her home state (or state with strongest ties) over a "prestige" school at a much more expensive price.

Location matters. Price matters. Goals matter. Savings (and if fortunate enough, parents' willingness and ability to pay) matters. This argument is kind of ridiculous.

Comparing two people... one who chose UVA assuming 150K debt with the goal of biglaw or bust is just as reasonable as someone with strong ties to Louisiana attending LSU or Tulane for free with no biglaw or bust goal. Not sure how the latter would be "embarrassing."


I think you and a bunch of other people are failing to understand the point of this thread. The thread is asking what the lowest ranked law school is that YOU would attend, not that you would recommend OTHER people attend. I was a biglaw or bust type before law school, so I would have felt like a failure and, thus, felt embarrassed about not getting what I wanted/expected of myself. If someone wants to be the shitlaw king of Louisiana, more power to them. It makes me cringe just thinking about it, but whatever.
Last edited by ExBiglawAssociate on Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Alan Grant
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby Alan Grant » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:14 pm

JCougar wrote:When I applied to law school, I probably thought "Tier 1."

After graduating and being in the field for almost 2 years, I would say Top 7. HYSCCNP for biglaw, or HYSCCNB for public interest/government. And I wouldn't even pay sticker at those. Those are just the only schools worth going to period, in that the waste of 3 years where you could be doing something else more productive--coupled with the risk of falling flat on your face after graduation--is worth it.


You don't think UVA or Cornell or Michigan are worth it––not even with a very generous scholarship?

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:16 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Almost everyone who posts here would (or should) feel embarrassed about going to Cooley, for example. I personally draw the line at T14, for a lot of different reasons. But you're lying if you say you wouldn't feel embarrassed going to *any* law school.

I interviewed people trying to get associate jobs at my biglaw firm all the time. The ones who came from non-T14s had tippy top grades and were every bit as smart as the ones who came from T14s. I am not disparaging everyone at lower ranked schools. I am simply saying that I, personally, would feel embarrassed about having to explain to people (first and foremost, my spouse) why I wanted to go to a law school that afforded me less than a 50/50 shot at a decent law job. It's not snotty to feel embarrassed about this at all. It's completely rational.


I actually think people who go T-14 are dumber than others. All it tells me is you had other career options and chose lawl or decided to pay a lot of money instead of going somewhere for free. People that go to T-14 schools saying other should be embarassed about going to T3 is the equivalent of a 7 year old still shitting his pants making fun of the 8 year old still shitting his pants. Neither have room to talk.


For the umpteenth time, I did not go to a T14 at sticker and would not recommend doing so. That said, going to a good regional school at a low price is hardly a path to guaranteed success.

Why would you ignore career prospects when choosing a law school and focus only on the cost? That's idiotic.

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JCougar
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Re: lowest ranked school you would settle for?

Postby JCougar » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:27 pm

Alan Grant wrote:You don't think UVA or Cornell or Michigan are worth it––not even with a very generous scholarship?


Not for me--not anymore. It's just not worth the time. I had a semi-decent career before law school. I hated my employer and it was the depth of the great recession, and try as I might, I couldn't lateral anywhere else. I suppose I was lucky not to have been laid off--as I got hired less than a year before the crash. Unfortunately, I made a poor decision as to whether to go to law school that I would have never made now.

Even the lower T14 give you a non-negligible risk of crashing and burning--and all law schools take away your earning potential for three years. And, of course, what is often overlooked is that Biglaw itself is an unstable job, so the people from these lower T14s that get Biglaw jobs are nowhere near guaranteed to keep them long enough to pay back their school debt.

Like I said, only at the absolute worst medical schools do they have problems putting grads in any job at all. Bottom-half T14 schools still have problems putting like 15-25% of their class into a legit law job. So perhaps your odds of success are good, but the downside of failure is still terrible.




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