Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

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Fred Norris
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby Fred Norris » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:21 am

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/09/the-sala ... -so-sweet/

Do we have some info on the yearly bonus scale as well?

I think that looking at med school grads, the debt situation is put into perspective with respect to paying sticker at HYS.

I don't think anyone is denying that your run of the mill state med school grad will always have a job short of messing up big time. But will anyone say that the same is not true for an HYS grad?

Moreover, I think it would also be relevant to know what is the most likely job available to a med school grad. If everyone has the option of becoming a cardiologist, then sure, there is a major payoff differential. If the average turnout is family doctor, then their salary trajectory isn't going to be much different than HYS.

I guess the bold statement to which I am heading is that taking the money at CCNPV will allow you to get the same general, lucrative jobs with an HYS degree, but going to HYS at sticker nonetheless is not a miserable option.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:03 am

So you've been comparing HYS with med school with regard to always being able to get a job, but you've just said that CCNPV with money gets you the same jobs as HYS? So how is HYS at sticker worth it?

Fred Norris
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby Fred Norris » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:41 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:So you've been comparing HYS with med school with regard to always being able to get a job, but you've just said that CCNPV with money gets you the same jobs as HYS? So how is HYS at sticker worth it?


On the above grounds, and considering only the above factors without looking at any advantages of an HYS degree (especially if you do very well), there is no real advantage. With that said, however, if you do go to HYS with hopes of excelling and are nonetheless at median, your life won't suck as if often suggested if you pay sticker. You will be in a comparable position to many other highly successful people.

In short - it seems the consensus here is that paying HYS sticker = doom. I think the statement is way overblown. I don't think my assessment, however, is.

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rpupkin
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby rpupkin » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:02 pm

Fred Norris wrote:In short - it seems the consensus here is that paying HYS sticker = doom.

No, the "consensus" you're referring to is HYS sicker = unnecessary debt (in light of other options).

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:42 pm

Fred Norris wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:So you've been comparing HYS with med school with regard to always being able to get a job, but you've just said that CCNPV with money gets you the same jobs as HYS? So how is HYS at sticker worth it?


On the above grounds, and considering only the above factors without looking at any advantages of an HYS degree (especially if you do very well), there is no real advantage. With that said, however, if you do go to HYS with hopes of excelling and are nonetheless at median, your life won't suck as if often suggested if you pay sticker. You will be in a comparable position to many other highly successful people.

In short - it seems the consensus here is that paying HYS sticker = doom. I think the statement is way overblown. I don't think my assessment, however, is.

You'll be in a comparable position with $300k debt (or whatever it is). Much better than going to, say, American for $300k debt, but much worse than going to Columbia with 0 debt (or $60k for living expenses).

I agree with the above - no one says doom, just unnecessary. But if people get into HYS and they think the prestige is worth the debt, go for it.

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chuckbass
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby chuckbass » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:49 pm

rpupkin wrote:
ditch digger wrote:I don't understand why nearly everyone on this forum is so debt adverse. After graduating from law school, I owe a bit above $100k in student loans. My salary in in the upper five figures range, and my student loan payments are manageable. That said, I would choose med school over law school in a heartbeat.

You might feel differently if you owed $300K.

You might feel differently if you weren't making close to six figures.

blousty
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby blousty » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:46 am

landshoes wrote:To dip below 6 figures as a doctor you have to do something really terrible, or purposely choose that over several higher-paying options. You can make 100k as a doctor and have real work-life balance, not the ridiculous 50 hours a week work-life "balance" you get as an attorney. You'll always be able to service your loans and have a decent quality of life. That has to make them a lot less stressful.


CR

Many, many very smart lawyers slave over 70k a year. They all thought they'd get big law. Don't say "not me." Odds are, it will be you. Odds don't lie.

blousty
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby blousty » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:48 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Fred Norris wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:So you've been comparing HYS with med school with regard to always being able to get a job, but you've just said that CCNPV with money gets you the same jobs as HYS? So how is HYS at sticker worth it?


On the above grounds, and considering only the above factors without looking at any advantages of an HYS degree (especially if you do very well), there is no real advantage. With that said, however, if you do go to HYS with hopes of excelling and are nonetheless at median, your life won't suck as if often suggested if you pay sticker. You will be in a comparable position to many other highly successful people.

In short - it seems the consensus here is that paying HYS sticker = doom. I think the statement is way overblown. I don't think my assessment, however, is.

You'll be in a comparable position with $300k debt (or whatever it is). Much better than going to, say, American for $300k debt, but much worse than going to Columbia with 0 debt (or $60k for living expenses).

I agree with the above - no one says doom, just unnecessary. But if people get into HYS and they think the prestige is worth the debt, go for it.



Prestige over debt should not be a calculus. It's odds of income vs. debt. Think as an investor, like Warren Buffet, not a little kid who wants 'prestige'. Nobody gives a F about prestige when they need a lawyer.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:13 pm

blousty wrote:Prestige over debt should not be a calculus. It's odds of income vs. debt. Think as an investor, like Warren Buffet, not a little kid who wants 'prestige'. Nobody gives a F about prestige when they need a lawyer.

I agree, but you can't convince some people.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:44 pm

earthabides wrote:
landshoes wrote:
earthabides wrote:The argument is that you can have the same outcome debt free with a full scholly somewhere else in the T14 particularly CCN Penn or Cornell


Maybe yes, maybe no, but you're right that med school scholarships are just not comparable.

That said, it's important to note that people largely choose their in-state medical school if possible, so it's not that pre-meds are ignoring the COA. They just don't have much of a choice.

People also like being doctors to some extent, and have a lifetime of high earning capacity. Biglaw is not a guaranteed lifetime job for anyone. You may never get no debt + high income as a lawyer. Ever. That's a huge stressor.

The rise in popularity of midlevel practitioners changes the calculus somewhat, and you do see some lower-paying specialties struggling to attract doctors because the salary just doesn't work with the cost of med school. It's a huge problem.


Yeah I don't know much about med school was just trying to frame the question as HYS v no debt. I know i'm also trying to jump through some mental hoops and convince myself that H would be the best option for me but I just know that taking $$$ will lead to a better life


This is incredibly convoluted. Don't create erroneous comparisons to make a false analogy to justify what you know to be a poor decision. If you're playing these mental gymnastics to force a choice, you know you're doing it wrong.

sheishkabob
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby sheishkabob » Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:48 pm

.
Last edited by sheishkabob on Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Hand
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby Hand » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:36 pm

this thread smells like seoulless

iliketurtles123
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby iliketurtles123 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:02 pm

sheishkabob wrote:I've thought about this a lot. To be honest, I feel like a lot of people need to grow a pair about law school and the law profession (and I mean that in the nicest way possible). My SO is in med school, two of my best friends are in med school, and one of my best friends is a starting accountant at one of the Big 4 accounting firms. There's this misconception that med school is some lollipop job where everyone loves what they do and it's a guarantee...thats the farthest thing from the truth. When I bring up how I'm fearful about the hours I'm going to have to work + crippling debt, my SO and friends just laugh at me.

First of all, getting INTO med school is a feat in itself. There's really none of this picking and choosing luxury we have with law schools...the acceptance rate hovers around 2-3% for a lot of med schools. People apply to 50-100 schools, and will get into one (this is the majority, not the minority). You go wherever you get in. If that's in bum fuck Idaho or South Dakota, you're going. There's no scholarships, there's no leverage, you pay the full $300,000 cost no questions asked.

Once you're there, you're competing among the other 2-3% in the country that got into the same med school as you. You're memorizing masses and masses of material...the stuff you're learning is HARD, and you have to compile all of that for 4 years for one test, the USMLE at the end of the four years. Before you even take that test, you have to do rotations for 2 years during med school. My friends are in rotations right now...it sounds like medieval torture. Getting rotations is a struggle in itself, its very competitive and DEFINITELY not a guarantee. My SO and one of my friends were lucky and got a rotation near where they went to school/in the same state, the other wasn't and had to travel, essentially knocking on doors of hospitals all over the country asking to do rotations. This again, isn't the minority...many, many med students travel around, living in their cars, going from hospital to hospital just to get rotations to even be able to graduate med school. Once you actually get a rotation, a fresh hell develops. We're complaining about 50 hours per week? Med students average 80 hours during rotations, with 36 hour shifts. Again, not the minority. My SO just finished a 36 hour shift, the third one in the past 2 months. At the hospital...for 36 hours straight.

As you're contemplating suicide during rotations, you still have study and continue to retain EVERYTHING you're learning for the USMLE (like the Bar). If you don't do well on the USMLE, you don't get a good residency. Then you're stuck in primary care or family medicine, rather than radio oncology, anesthesiology, or surgery. To even get the latter specialties, you have to continue after med school, with the crippling debt, for 5-10 years. It's pretty much impossible to suddenly switch to another specialty once you're in it (like attorneys switching from prosecution to defense, etc.)...if you don't like it, sucks. You did residency for that career, you can't go back to school now. During these years of residency, you're making $50k, working 80 hour weeks (no matter what the specialty is), with $300,000 loan repayment coming into play. My SO's dad is an anesthesiologist who graduated from Vanderbilt med school...when he was in residency with his wife, they were sleeping in their car splitting Big Macs for food.

And then, after it all, you finally land a job (which you don't even really have much control over, the field you get into is dictated by your USMLE score). Every single doctor I've talked to, if they were to do it over again, would pick a different specialty and do something different. No matter the profession, if you're doing the same thing everyday, you're going to hate it after a certain point. And these are doctors with good specialties, like surgery, etc. If you're in primary care or family care? Good luck, you're dealing with patients like you would herd cattle. You're repeating yourself over and over again to medically incompetent people. They ask the same stupid questions everyday, and you have tell Jimmy that yes, you have to exercise, and no, butter is not a carb. All the while, you're trucking along, paying off that growing $300,000 over 20 years. You're still working absurd hours, especially if you're in the hospital. Oh, and to top that off, a lot of the time you don't even get paid for the work you do (if you work in a hospital) because people don't have insurance, and you can't deny healthcare. That doesn't come out of the hospital's pockets who then reimburse you....no, you literally just don't get paid.

If you want to make a serious amount of money (over $100,000 is serious for the majority of the population), then you're going to have to bust your ass. That's just how it works. Sure, there's lollipop jobs where people make bank investing their parent's money in real estate, or developing a start up, etc., but that's the minority. My accountant friend at the Big 4 that I mentioned above: she makes $50k a year (before taxes). 50 fucking k, and she's at that place until 1:30 am EVERY NIGHT OF THE WEEK. Sure, she doesn't have $300,000 in debt, but I sure as hell would rather take $110k after taxes and pay off some loans than try and live off $40k.

Anyways, my apologies for the vent...just my two cents. Good luck, we're all fucked.

Edit: added an e and a bit more vent


+1

Seriously, law does not even compare to med school. I cringe anytime a misinformed TLS user brings up a comparison of med school on this board.
I think you nailed it in the head when you say people need a to grow a pair about law school. Not trying to belittle the legal profession, but it really is a different game.

Also TLS thinks in a largely generalized way that focuses solely on ROI. That might be fine for certain fields but the medical field is probably the one field where ROI is vastly undermined by other factors. Med school takes the "don't be a doctor/lawyer unless you actually want to be one" argument to a whole new level.

suboxoneman
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby suboxoneman » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:56 pm

Fred Norris wrote:http://abovethelaw.com/2010/09/the-salary-scale-never-has-stagnant-looked-so-sweet/

Do we have some info on the yearly bonus scale as well?

I think that looking at med school grads, the debt situation is put into perspective with respect to paying sticker at HYS.

I don't think anyone is denying that your run of the mill state med school grad will always have a job short of messing up big time. But will anyone say that the same is not true for an HYS grad?

Moreover, I think it would also be relevant to know what is the most likely job available to a med school grad. If everyone has the option of becoming a cardiologist, then sure, there is a major payoff differential. If the average turnout is family doctor, then their salary trajectory isn't going to be much different than HYS.



This is something else(your last paragraph) that law school types have difficulty grasping. They are used to the rigidity of the prestige game in law school. They have difficulty comprehending that while a student(all else being equal) is more likely to match into a top derm program from Hopkins than university of maryland(typical solid state med school), it's really not as massive a difference as you may think. Nothing like the difference between say Harvard and Maryland law school.

For what it's worth though, the majority of students at most state med schools don't do primary care. Hell even at most do schools the majority don't. Also, many if the higher paying specialties are actually subspecialties of medicine. Where you went to residency for internal medicine is actually the most important factor, and it's not super difficult to get a cardiology if gi spot somewhere. You don't have to train at Hopkins for internal medicine to match at cardiology or gi somewhere. The reality is the vast majority of cardiologists and gi docs went to pretty typical med schools and not Hopkins or Harvard. Someone who gets into say....unviversity if Florida med school- if they work hard and want to do cardiology or gi or something like that they will almost certainly get that eventually.

So the idea that medical schools and residencies and fellowships are anything like the law school/biglaw/big fed/biglaw structure is 100 percent false. Heck, even the best Carib schools(sugar, Ross) end up producing lots of cardiologists, gi docs, anesthesia, etc...


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Moneytrees
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Re: Paying Sticker at HYS vs. Med School Indebtedness

Postby Moneytrees » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:12 pm

The main reason why top law school students complain isn't because of salary, or the lack of jobs per se. The problem is debt. Few people would consider working at a small firm for 60/70k to be a poor outcome, if debt was low or non-existent. You would be able work your way up to a decent salary with peace of mind and the ability to save some of your monthly income in that scenario.

Unfortunately, most law schools are so expensive that it's becoming increasingly rare for students to be able to keep debt at a manageable level. When you have 100k, or god forbid, 200k of debt, all of the sudden the 70k/yr small time law firm jobs look a lot less appetizing.




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