3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

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BuyaLittleMercy
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3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby BuyaLittleMercy » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:05 pm

Hey everyone, I am trying to make decision as to my next move. I am a junior at a state school with a 3.82 GPA (will likely be around 3.84-6 by application time, although this is not certain), and just received my Feb LSAT score, a 174.

My first score was in September of this scholastic year, and a 171. During the last month of my studying I was averaging a 176-177, with several 180s, and none below 174 (my absolute base goal).

My issue has always been logic games. Way back at the beginning of this year, I could not solve a logic game. By September I could solve three, which I did on the test. By Feb, I had barley a single test in the last month where I did not solve every game perfectly correct. I took 30 tests all the way up to the most recent in preparation, and the majority were in that last month. During my Feb test, I nearly had a panic attack when I misread a critical rule in the fourth game. I was just able to complete it, but I realized my I may have made errors due to the mad dash to correctly solve the game with the proper rule. I also have doubts in the third game, due to a question that seemed inconsistent with the rules. I think in order to merit this personally low score, I must have made a major error on a game. That was the case in every 174 I received on prep tests this phase. As the Feb test is not disclosed, I cannot confirm any of my musings. So although I think this score was almost certainly the result of a major logic games choke, I cant be sure.

I'm struggling with whether I should retake a third time. After the first test it seemed obvious, I was improving fast, I knew I could do better, and I am really only interested in law school at a T6, so I knew a higher score was merited. This time its tough. I know I can score easily higher in theory. I scored two or three points below my average. However, the pressure seems to have terrible effects on my games. More Importantly, I have a value conundrum:

It seems to have a shot at HSY Id need to retake and score higher. However, I am also unsure if a third test would look poor on an application to HSY, thus making the process pointless.

I know its a long post, this something I am trying to puzzle out, and I would appreciate any input greatly. What do you guys think? Should I retake? Would it net help me at HSY? Where do I have a chance as is?


Any input appreciated.

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ballcaps
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby ballcaps » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:09 pm

gut reaction: don't retake a 174 (focus on ps, recs, etc. instead), as it's already above every median in the country. you also have a competitive gpa.

dissenters, please chime in.

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Dog
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby Dog » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:21 pm

You actually have quite a decent shot at Harvard. Retaking for 1 or 2 more points could make the difference, but at the same time they might acknowledge your multiple retakes.

I chose not to retake my 174 (first take) and I had a painful -2 in a row on logic games. I got one of the cross-off first questions of a game wrong and then as a result I got the follow-up wrong too.

It's a tough call. I remember seeing statistics showing 174 retakers scored worse at the time I was making my decision. I imagined they all felt confident they could improve like I did. Scoring worse would have been extremely frustrating for me.

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RunnerRunner
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby RunnerRunner » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:28 pm

As the above posters point out, you certainly don't need to retake to "have a shot" at YHS, since you're already above median, and it's not like you have an abysmal GPA. I'd give you solid odds at Harvard, but since it sounds like you'll be K-JD Yale/Stanford seem unlikely. If you have your heart set on Y you might want to try to get above their 75th if you think you have a very strong chance of doing so. My two cents. Good luck!

BuyaLittleMercy
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby BuyaLittleMercy » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:57 pm

Thanks for the input so far guys, I really appreciate it. I didn't realize that I have a solid shot at Harvard with these numbers. Any chance you have an odds opinion?

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moejoe193
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby moejoe193 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:05 pm

I have almost the exact same numbers you do: 174 LSAT (second-take) and a 3.8X GPA. I received a JS1, and, as far as I can tell, a majority of those who receive JS1s get accepted, so I'd say your chances are at least 60-40, depending on softs. K-JD will hurt, but won't kill you in any way.

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RunnerRunner
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby RunnerRunner » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:08 pm

BuyaLittleMercy wrote:Thanks for the input so far guys, I really appreciate it. I didn't realize that I have a solid shot at Harvard with these numbers. Any chance you have an odds opinion?


Off the top of my head, idk, maybe 60 - 70% chance of admission? If you'd be willing to put off LS for a couple years to get some substantive work experience I think it would be significantly higher with your numbers though.

For more accurate info, play around on LSN, that'll give you a better idea of where you stand/how applicants like you have fared in the past.

http://mylsn.info/r/pre-law/admissions/search/

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ballcaps
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby ballcaps » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:14 pm

BuyaLittleMercy wrote:Thanks for the input so far guys, I really appreciate it. I didn't realize that I have a solid shot at Harvard with these numbers. Any chance you have an odds opinion?

Image
you have a very good shot at H as is. decent-ish shot at Y and S also.

i agree with runnerrunner that work/time off is a good idea, but there's little indication H cares about that. Y and S certainly do, however.

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sfoglia
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby sfoglia » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:21 pm

moejoe193 wrote:I have almost the exact same numbers you do: 174 LSAT (second-take) and a 3.8X GPA. I received a JS1, and, as far as I can tell, a majority of those who receive JS1s get accepted, so I'd say your chances are at least 60-40, depending on softs. K-JD will hurt, but won't kill you in any way.


+1 for similar numbers, one point lower on LSAT, 3.8X GPA. Also considering a third retake in June. Obviously have no advice, but feel free to PM me if you want to chat.

BuyaLittleMercy
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby BuyaLittleMercy » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:24 pm

Early Congrats moejoe193! Hope it all goes well, and thats awesome.

Thanks RunnerRunner, I checked out the data. I was under the impression that my odds were pretty low, and they seem fair. Harvard was always the real goal of the HSY group anyway. It will inform my thinking on a retake possibility, along with the ilawschool numbers of an average score drop for 174 retakers.

Any opinions on whether, if I were to place several points higher on a retake, Harvard would count the third test against me anyway (negating much of a real value increase) ?

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UnicornHunter
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby UnicornHunter » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:32 pm

With numbers like yours your goal should be a Hamilton or Ruby. A retake couldn't hurt on that front, but you should already be in the running with your current numbers. Your last concern in evaluating whether or not to retake should be what Harvard will think of it.

Chiller303
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby Chiller303 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:51 pm

I think what people have said is pretty spot-on: you have a very good shot at the YHS, and you're a lock at the CCN. My own intuition (and I would say this in strong, uncertain terms) is that you shouldn't retake. The only caveat is if you're very, very sure you can score above the 75th percentile of your target school. That's the only way you're affecting a school's reporting profile. Given how high your LSAT is already, it's very difficult to be near-certain that you can bump your score up, and there are significant downside risks. If your goal is to help your application, earlier advice to take a year off is TCR. Substantive/interesting experience will help both your resume and the content of your application materials (e.g., your personal statement) and will do much more for application (read: likelihood of getting a scholarship) than a point or two on the LSAT. Given than you're a junior, you also still have time to bump up your GPA, and getting above a 3.9 will also have a more meaningful effect on the optics of your application than will a LSAT score increase (though on this point, I'm in the realm of conjecture and would state my opinion less categorically). Feel free to PM if you have any questions.

BuyaLittleMercy
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby BuyaLittleMercy » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:26 pm

Thanks guys. I gotta say, you boosted my mood. I was a little down due to scoring several points under my average, and trying to consider where this put me, as regarding future moves.

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pylon
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby pylon » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:21 am

ballcaps wrote:
BuyaLittleMercy wrote:Thanks for the input so far guys, I really appreciate it. I didn't realize that I have a solid shot at Harvard with these numbers. Any chance you have an odds opinion?


you have a very good shot at H as is. decent-ish shot at Y and S also.

i agree with runnerrunner that work/time off is a good idea, but there's little indication H cares about that. Y and S certainly do, however.

I was interested in this so I looked it up. 76% of HLS' entering class is at least 1 year out of college. This is the exact same percentage as Yale (they report 24% directly from undergrad). I couldn't find the % for SLS. Yes, H is more numbers based, and yes OP still has a very good shot at H - but I'd say they definitely do care about WE.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/classprofile.html
http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/profile.htm

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Cicero76
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby Cicero76 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:54 am

I got into Yale and Harvard with a 3.85/174, so I think you're going to be fine. If anything, retaking a 174 is going to look neurotic.

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ballcaps
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby ballcaps » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:32 am

pylon wrote:
ballcaps wrote:
BuyaLittleMercy wrote:Thanks for the input so far guys, I really appreciate it. I didn't realize that I have a solid shot at Harvard with these numbers. Any chance you have an odds opinion?


you have a very good shot at H as is. decent-ish shot at Y and S also.

i agree with runnerrunner that work/time off is a good idea, but there's little indication H cares about that. Y and S certainly do, however.

I was interested in this so I looked it up. 76% of HLS' entering class is at least 1 year out of college. This is the exact same percentage as Yale (they report 24% directly from undergrad). I couldn't find the % for SLS. Yes, H is more numbers based, and yes OP still has a very good shot at H - but I'd say they definitely do care about WE.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/classprofile.html
http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/profile.htm


interesting - thanks for the knowledge, pylon. i suppose i was basing that on anecdotes and zeitgeist!

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pylon
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby pylon » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:51 am

ballcaps wrote:interesting - thanks for the knowledge, pylon. i suppose i was basing that on anecdotes and zeitgeist!

Yeah, it totally surprised me! I originally thought the same.

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Indy16
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby Indy16 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:26 pm

pylon wrote:
ballcaps wrote:
BuyaLittleMercy wrote:Thanks for the input so far guys, I really appreciate it. I didn't realize that I have a solid shot at Harvard with these numbers. Any chance you have an odds opinion?


you have a very good shot at H as is. decent-ish shot at Y and S also.

i agree with runnerrunner that work/time off is a good idea, but there's little indication H cares about that. Y and S certainly do, however.

I was interested in this so I looked it up. 76% of HLS' entering class is at least 1 year out of college. This is the exact same percentage as Yale (they report 24% directly from undergrad). I couldn't find the % for SLS. Yes, H is more numbers based, and yes OP still has a very good shot at H - but I'd say they definitely do care about WE.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/classprofile.html
http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/profile.htm


I think I remember reading something in the spivey thread that for H it's a positive to mention deferring and that they actively encourage KJD admits to do so.

Take this with a grain of salt because my memory of it is shaky. Best to go into the thread and snoop or ask the question.

blousty
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby blousty » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:29 am

A 174 retake is nonsense. Your LSAT displays your abilities. Don't f it up by risking a 173.

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KMart
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby KMart » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:09 am

Indy16 wrote:I think I remember reading something in the spivey thread that for H it's a positive to mention deferring and that they actively encourage KJD admits to do so.

Take this with a grain of salt because my memory of it is shaky. Best to go into the thread and snoop or ask the question.

I remember this as well.

suboxoneman
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Re: 3.82/ 174. A Third June Retake?

Postby suboxoneman » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:51 pm

BuyaLittleMercy wrote: and I am really only interested in law school at a T6


I think this is the more intriguing part of your post.....

if you view law as a career that you will spend decades in(do you?), how in the world does the difference between say...Chicago and Penn(both of which you would likely get into anyways of course) change the dynamic from 'not interested' to 'I'll spend 3 of the best years on my life on this'.

I mean you either want to be a lawyer or you don't. If you really really do(and think hard about it), then you are obviously in a great position relative to others who also really really do. If you don't, then(even if you were guaranteed in at yale) there is absolutely no reason to continue down this path.




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