Do you need to attend a top 20 law school?

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Moneytrees
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Re: Do you need to attend a top 20 law school?

Postby Moneytrees » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:05 pm

Nobody is saying you have to go to a T20 to be a successful attorney. Top 20 doesn't really mean anything. What people are trying to get across is that only the top 14 schools have great job placement numbers, so any school outside of that range (whether that school is ranked n.15 or n.55) should only be attended if you receive a significant discount on tuition.

TLS can be a little harsh in getting this point across, but it's for a reason. There are so many people out there who are unemployed and in over their heads with student debt just because they wanted to attend a "top" school.

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Cobretti
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Re: Do you need to attend a top 20 law school?

Postby Cobretti » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:29 pm

Patent2014 wrote:The correct response is no. I go to a school outside the T20 and I received multiple biglaw summer associate offers for my 1L summer from forms that all pay $160k to new associates. T14 increases your chances but there will still be many T14s who wont get biglaw and many non-T14s who will. It's not dispositive.

Very useful data point Patent2014

crazycatlady92
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Re: Do you need to attend a top 20 law school?

Postby crazycatlady92 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:06 pm

JCougar wrote:I'd be hesitant to attend all but maybe the top 7 or so schools right now. HYSCCNP for biglaw or HYSCCNB for public interest. Unless I had like a 75% scholarship or higher.



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UnicornHunter
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Re: Do you need to attend a top 20 law school?

Postby UnicornHunter » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:17 pm

crazycatlady92 wrote:
JCougar wrote:I'd be hesitant to attend all but maybe the top 7 or so schools right now. HYSCCNP for biglaw or HYSCCNB for public interest. Unless I had like a 75% scholarship or higher.



http://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmiss ... full_ride/


What a terrible fucking thread. It's not nice to give people bad advice that leads them to take on life altering debt. It's not supportive to ignore any sort of reasonable cost/benefit analysis. It's not elitist to say don't pay to go to (x) law school given (y) circumstances, or to suggest that a retake might be in order.

ilikebaseball
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Re: Do you need to attend a top 20 law school?

Postby ilikebaseball » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:20 pm

BigZuck wrote:
ilikebaseball wrote:
rungoodinc wrote:If you don't get at least top 20, and you will be going into a significant amount of debt to fund your education, you should not go to law school.

lol

Top 20 is an arbitrary/meaningless distinction, is that why you're laughing?

Missed the "and". Thouhjt he was saying that if you don't get into at least top 20 YOURE gonna have insurmountable debt, but he was saying "and".

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banjo
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Re: Do you need to attend a top 20 law school?

Postby banjo » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:25 pm

T14 -->big law is one of the easiest paths to entry-level legal employment. There are 5,000-6,000 high-paying legal jobs that are basically reserved for T14 kids. That's partly why T14s have such great employment scores on LST.

Once you're off that path -- either because you struck out at a T14 or you go to a non-target law school -- your job search gets considerably more difficult. Yes, you can still get a job if you hustle, network, beg, whatever, but you're competing with a ton of students for fewer jobs.

So no, you don't NEED to attend a T20 (or T14) law school, but you're giving up a relatively safe path to a legal job.

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JCougar
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Re: Do you need to attend a top 20 law school?

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:35 pm

banjo wrote:Once you're off that path -- either because you struck out at a T14 or you go to a non-target law school -- your job search gets considerably more difficult.


TLS can sometimes be overly pessimistic--and this probably doubly applies to me in particular--but this here is one thing that it is still probably too optimistic on.

There is no special list of jobs for people from top schools that strike out at OCI. Your in the same boat as everyone else from the trap schools on down to TTTs. While the better degree may help for some jobs, it hurts with others (flight risk, he/she will never be happy working at my shitfirm, etc.). Your best bet is to drop out if you can still go back to your old job. Your second best bet is to network and see if you can find a firm to clerk for during law school so you're actually ready to practice when you graduate--preferably in a city where they don't think you're a flight risk.

Apate19
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Re: Do you need to attend a top 20 law school?

Postby Apate19 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:16 am

rpupkin wrote:
Apate19 wrote:Obviously students go to schools outside of to 20 and graduate and get decent jobs. That's why those schools are still running.

Can you really not see how absurdly circular your logic is here? In order to run, the law schools don't need students to get decent jobs. The schools just need enough students to pay tuition.

Now, if the schools (instead of the federal government) gave out loans, then there would be a connection between the viability of the school and the number of graduates who get decent jobs. If the school was stuck with a bunch of former students who could not pay off their loan obligations because of poor employment outcomes, then you would see many, many schools shutting down. But, alas, that's not the system.


Actually, what is absurd is your capability of understanding. I said "OBVIOUSLY STUDENTS GO TO THESE SCHOOLS AND GET DECENT JOBS"..."GO TO THESE SCHOOLS". These schools are running because people go to these schools. That was what I was trying to say. Obviously like I said the brand DOES matter. But, it's not the only schools you can go to. I've seen schools outside of the top 20 with 80%+ employment rates. Yeah the starting salary might be different but you can always make your salary better depending on how good of a lawyer you become.

I clearly say NO you don't have to go to a T20 school because I have many instances where people are telling me on here if you don't have the numbers to get into a T20 school, you should just forget about law. Some people here are more demoralizing than helpful.

Apate19
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Re: Do you need to attend a top 20 law school?

Postby Apate19 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:22 am

TY22 wrote:
Apate19 wrote:Honestly, no.

Does it make a difference on your STARTING pay? Yeah.

But I've had experience here where people tell me if I can't get into a top 20 or don't have the numbers to, I should drop law. So what like other schools not in top 20 are full of ghosts? Obviously students go to schools outside of to 20 and graduate and get decent jobs. That's why those schools are still running. You might start out more mediocre from a non top20 school. But if you have great grades and are an actual good lawyer you can always work your way up to a big salary.

The brand of the degree does matter to a certain point. But after that it depends on your performance as a lawyer that decides your future.


There are two parts of the above reasoning that might be questionable. First, from what I've read it really isn't a different starting point but can reach the same goal eventually sort of situation. Instead, biglaw is a really different tier entirely, and even if you do very well at a small non-elite law firm you aren't likely to ever be able to transfer between.

Second, from what I've read, the survival of many law schools is based less on the ultimate success of their graduates and more on the free-flowing federal loans and the manipulated ignorance and unrealistic expectations of many law school applicants. So that these schools are still running does not really prove anything about the wisdom of going to them.

That's not saying the top 20 are the only law schools worth going to, it's just that I think the argument is more complicated and situation dependent than what you are saying here.



Without argument, my point is that a T20 isn't the only way to earning good pay in the legal field. My reasoning for why schools not in t20 are running is that people go to them. Not because they get good jobs after. I just said people get DECENT (acceptable) jobs because from ABA statistic for non T20 schools quite a few have 80%+ employment rates.

T20 will make your path to a high salary easier, but its not the only way. You will have to work harder but you can get a high paying job with a non t20 school. Not to say go to some random school. But a decent T30/40 school can also work.




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