Getting advice early....

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moneybag121
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Getting advice early....

Postby moneybag121 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:56 am

Hey Guys,

I created this account to ask just a few questions about the competitiveness of law schools. I was looking for some helpful information about some future goals of mine. I'm currently 17 and deciding where I'd like to go to college next year. I have a couple of questions. How much of a factor is where you got your undergrad education? I currently have gotten into University of Iowa, University of Illinois, Marquette, Miami of Ohio and a bunch of other schools. But, this brings me into my second question. What is the emphasis on the major that I choose? I've only been accepted to Iowa's Business Program, but I know that it isn't as good of a school as the others. So what would you guys do? Should I go to a school where I'd study what I want with a stress free freshman year knowing I'm already in Business or should I go to the University of Illinois and attempt to transfer to business and if all else fails study something else. I'm really just looking to find out if I should go to Iowa or if going there significantly lowers my chances to being admitted to a tier one law school. I know i want to do law but have heard a business degree isn't even needed. But I've also heard that if I decide to take a break from law, a finance degree can open a lot of doors.

Would really appreciate some advice.


Thanks,
Robert

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Rigo
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Rigo » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:05 am

Undergrad institution doesn't matter for law school admissions. Neither does the major.
Also, chill out. Pick a major and school you'll actually enjoy. If you're smart and lucky, you'll avoid law school.

moneybag121
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby moneybag121 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:15 am

I really want to go to law school and am now confident that the University of Iowa will be a good fit. I know law school might not be giving kids the employment they want right now but I've known that I wanted to be a lawyer since I was probably 10. But the thing is....Iowa has such a bad image. But if neither the major nor school actually matters for law school then Iowa it is.

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Rigo
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Rigo » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:17 am

moneybag121 wrote:I've known that I wanted to be a lawyer since I was probably 10.

Please elaborate.

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Aeon
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Aeon » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:24 am

Law school admissions are largely a numbers game. The higher your GPA and LSAT score, the better chance you have for admission. The prestige of your undergrad institution may play a small role, but it's not dispositive. Pick the college where you would best prefer to spend the next four years of your life and do well academically.

Any major will do. When applying to law school, you will be competing against a lot of people with majors in the humanities and social sciences, some business, and not too many in engineering and the hard sciences. Choose whichever major interests you the most, enjoy college, and don't worry about law school until junior year at the earliest.

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Auxilio
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Auxilio » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:25 am

moneybag121 wrote:I really want to go to law school and am now confident that the University of Iowa will be a good fit. I know law school might not be giving kids the employment they want right now but I've known that I wanted to be a lawyer since I was probably 10. But the thing is....Iowa has such a bad image. But if neither the major nor school actually matters for law school then Iowa it is.


Describe what you like about the idea of being a lawyer. And outline what you think the average day is for a lawyer (in a specific type of law if you have a clearer idea what you want, but they are all more similar than you would think).

moneybag121
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby moneybag121 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:27 am

I've always enjoyed arguing with people in hopes of changing their minds. I've been in situations where i've needed a lawyer and have seen how much relief they bring. I enjoy talking to people and attempting to resolve their problems. But at the same time I enjoy arguing with others for the simple reason of me enjoying it. I have respect for lawyers because I know what they need to put up with even though they could be helping the wrong side. I like law. I genuinely enjoy learning about it and reading about it.

ps...i love watching law and order as well as suits

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Aeon
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Aeon » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:36 am

The practice of law doesn't usually involve much arguing (except maybe family law...). There's much more researching and other desk work. For most lawyers, that's all they do. If you go work at a BigLaw firm, you will be spending your first several years looking at documents and doing nitpicking work, putting in very long hours. Television shows intend to entertain and don't portray the reality of being a lawyer.

NonTradLawHopeful
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby NonTradLawHopeful » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:57 am

moneybag121 wrote:I really want to go to law school and am now confident that the University of Iowa will be a good fit. I know law school might not be giving kids the employment they want right now but I've known that I wanted to be a lawyer since I was probably 10. But the thing is....Iowa has such a bad image. But if neither the major nor school actually matters for law school then Iowa it is.


What bad image do you think Iowa has? Their business school is as good or better than any public school in the Midwest.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:38 am

If you actually want to gun for law school, there are 3 real options, in order of most advisable to least advisable:

1.) Major is something that makes you employable, such as any form of engineering or finance (or if you have a passion for art restoration then do that). Seriously, do well and have a solid GPA coming out of finance or accounting, and you'll be able to get a job just fine. This is great because you have an employable major, so if you decide you don't want to go to law school halfway through, or can't score high enough on your LSAT, you can get a job after UG.

2.) If you're focused on IP, major in engineering. If you hate engineering, physics. If you hate those things, you're probably gonna hate IP. But engineering majors (like EE/BME/CS/Aerospace) can find jobs more easily out of law school. There's less pressure on attending a T-14 then because you're more employable, and employability is the name of the game. Your GPA will almost always suffer though because engineering majors are notoriously the most difficult majors.

3.) Take some bullshit major like business and get a 4.0, then ace the lsat, and go to HYS.

In all cases, take a philosophy elective or two (or logic courses if your school offers them). It will help on the LSAT.

Prestige doesn't matter unless it's extreme in either direction. Nobody cares about NYU vs Penn State for UG. Brown > San Jose State though.

P.S. This kid's 17 pls don't shit on him for not knowing what a lawyer actually does. He'll figure it out a few years into college. Hopefully.

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Rigo
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Rigo » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:05 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:3.) Take some bullshit major like business and get a 4.0, then ace the lsat, and go to HYS.

Since when is business a bullshit major? It's certainly a lot more useful than 90% of the other majors. If OP wants to do business administration, he should.

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Clemenceau
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Clemenceau » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:21 am

Please major in something that will make you employable if you decide not to go into law.

Even if you think you're dead-set on law now, things change. Don't major in something so impractical that you feel pigeon-holed into going to law school. Its not a good way to approach your professional career.

I was a double language major, and while I'm looking forward to a career as an attorney, I sincerely regret my choice in major.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Ron Don Volante » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:15 am

Iowa sucks. I'd go to Uiuc instead. Did you not get into one of UMinn or UW? (Assuming comparable admissions standards). You'd have a much better time at one of those two. But undergrad choice has almost zero influence on admissions for law school. Go where you'll be happy.

I know you're 17, but your reasons for wanting to be a lawyer are old clichés that make me think you'd have a bad time if you pursued it without digging in further. Please keep an open mind to other options. In fact, I would recommend pursuing another path throughout undergrad and use law school as a fall back plan. Law school is not something you want to enter with ug debt, but you do want to enter it with work experience. Also you should begin networking with/attempting to shadow attorneys to get a solid understanding of the profession. Also you should read "Don't Go To Law School (Unless)" by Paul Campos, and read this site.

Major is irrelevant for admissions and isn't going to really impact getting a job as a lawyer. I would suggest double majoring in one thing you're passionate about (e.g philosophy, pol science, legal studies) and one thing that will get you a job (hesitant to suggest "business admin" as it is a bullshit major).

Let us know if you have any other questions.

Eta milwaukee is a really underrated place, too. Are your parents paying tuition? I'd go to Marquette over Iowa or UIUC, depending on my goals. Make sure you visit all these places.

NonTradLawHopeful
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby NonTradLawHopeful » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:21 am

Ron Don Volante wrote:Iowa sucks. I'd go to Uiuc instead. Did you not get into one of UMinn or UW? (Assuming comparable admissions standards). You'd have a much better time at one of those two.


What is your basis for this? Wisconsin is in a great college town. UMN is a big commuter school. Seriously, where did the bad Iowa UG rep come from?

OP, have you visited any of the schools? Ron Don't was right in that you should go where you'll be happy. None of the schools you mentioned are bad options for UG.

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Kluge
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Kluge » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:27 am

Clemenceau wrote:Please major in something that will make you employable if you decide not to go into law.

Even if you think you're dead-set on law now, things change. Don't major in something so impractical that you feel pigeon-holed into going to law school. Its not a good way to approach your professional career.

I was a double language major, and while I'm looking forward to a career as an attorney, I sincerely regret my choice in major.



Really? Why?

Fellow language major here, and I found it very satisfying to actually be developing a tangible skill. Plus, it allowed me to have a really great study abroad experience in which I was able to actually connect with another culture.

Edit:

OP, you should really follow your interests in UG. If you want to put yourself in a good position for law school, just do the two things you should be doing anyway:

1) Take school seriously, go to class, work hard, and get good grades.

2) Keep your debt as low as possible.

Other than that, just follow your interests and engage in things outside of class. I went to a large, completely non-prestigious state school and have had no problem getting into top-6 law schools.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Ron Don Volante » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:36 am

NonTradLawHopeful wrote:
Ron Don Volante wrote:Iowa sucks. I'd go to Uiuc instead. Did you not get into one of UMinn or UW? (Assuming comparable admissions standards). You'd have a much better time at one of those two.


What is your basis for this? Wisconsin is in a great college town. UMN is a big commuter school. Seriously, where did the bad Iowa UG rep come from?

A weekend visit to iowa for a football game. It's fine but there is nothing really great about it. Madison destroys it. There may be a lot of commuters at UMn (?) but the campus is still a lot of fun and you're in a great city with a lot to do and a lot of local job/internship prospects.

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Clemenceau
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Clemenceau » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:45 am

Kluge wrote:Really? Why?


Eh. Perhaps I was being hyperbolic. My majors certainly improved my writing.

But the business program at my ug was real solid, and seeing my lazy friends score 55k-75k jobs out of the gate was frustrating.

edit: frustrating in a "why didn't I major in biz" way, not frustrated by friends' success.

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MidwestLifer
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby MidwestLifer » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:55 am

I just say keep your loan debt as low as possible, those schools all do pretty well placement-wise. I'm a senior at Marquette, PM me if you want to learn more about it.

Major in something useful though for God's sake, because four years from now it's far from a guarantee that you'll still want to go to law school. Finance is a major that is very employable and not too terribly difficult to maintain a high GPA in. I'll also suggest mathematics for the same reason if you're at all analytically inclined.

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Kluge
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Kluge » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:03 pm

Clemenceau wrote:
Kluge wrote:Really? Why?


Eh. Perhaps I was being hyperbolic. My majors certainly improved my writing.

But the business program at my ug was real solid, and seeing my lazy friends score 55k-75k jobs out of the gate was frustrating.

edit: frustrating in a "why didn't I major in biz" way, not frustrated by friends' success.


Ah that's fair. I get that. If I wasn't going to law school I'd probably feel the same way, regardless of how positive my experiences were.

NonTradLawHopeful
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby NonTradLawHopeful » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:24 pm

Ron Don Volante wrote:
NonTradLawHopeful wrote:
Ron Don Volante wrote:Iowa sucks. I'd go to Uiuc instead. Did you not get into one of UMinn or UW? (Assuming comparable admissions standards). You'd have a much better time at one of those two.


What is your basis for this? Wisconsin is in a great college town. UMN is a big commuter school. Seriously, where did the bad Iowa UG rep come from?

A weekend visit to iowa for a football game. It's fine but there is nothing really great about it. Madison destroys it. There may be a lot of commuters at UMn (?) but the campus is still a lot of fun and you're in a great city with a lot to do and a lot of local job/internship prospects.


OK. Small sample size, but it is hard to defend the atmosphere around Iowa football gamedays these days. Pretty depressing from when I was an UG there, when they won the Orange Bowl.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Ron Don Volante » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:05 pm

I thought the football atmosphere was great, actually (the game was the year UW won with the fake punt/Montee Ball's breakout). But yeah small sample size. And I may be biased.

moneybag121
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby moneybag121 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:20 pm

Iowa has a bad image because it is known as a huge drinking and party school. I'd love to go to Illinois and Minnesota but I didn't get direct admit into their business program. This would make my freshman year 100 times more stressful because I would be stressing out over getting it. It could potentially be a giant waste of money if I didn't get into business my second year which would make me need to transfer my second year.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Ron Don Volante » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:26 pm

moneybag121 wrote:Iowa has a bad image because it is known as a huge drinking and party school. I'd love to go to Illinois and Minnesota but I didn't get direct admit into their business program. This would make my freshman year 100 times more stressful because I would be stressing out over getting it. It could potentially be a giant waste of money if I didn't get into business my second year which would make me need to transfer my second year.

the bold is a positive thing. Why are you determined to do biz school before ever setting foot on campus? be open to other options; UG business classes are generally pretty terrible. I'd major in econ instead (esp. if I were thinking about law school).
Last edited by Ron Don Volante on Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

moneybag121
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby moneybag121 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:26 pm

Ron Don Volante wrote:Iowa sucks. I'd go to Uiuc instead. Did you not get into one of UMinn or UW? (Assuming comparable admissions standards). You'd have a much better time at one of those two. But undergrad choice has almost zero influence on admissions for law school. Go where you'll be happy.

I know you're 17, but your reasons for wanting to be a lawyer are old clichés that make me think you'd have a bad time if you pursued it without digging in further. Please keep an open mind to other options. In fact, I would recommend pursuing another path throughout undergrad and use law school as a fall back plan. Law school is not something you want to enter with ug debt, but you do want to enter it with work experience. Also you should begin networking with/attempting to shadow attorneys to get a solid understanding of the profession. Also you should read "Don't Go To Law School (Unless)" by Paul Campos, and read this site.

Major is irrelevant for admissions and isn't going to really impact getting a job as a lawyer. I would suggest double majoring in one thing you're passionate about (e.g philosophy, pol science, legal studies) and one thing that will get you a job (hesitant to suggest "business admin" as it is a bullshit major).

Let us know if you have any other questions.

Eta milwaukee is a really underrated place, too. Are your parents paying tuition? I'd go to Marquette over Iowa or UIUC, depending on my goals. Make sure you visit all these places.


You tell me Iowa sucks but give no information at all to why? Can you elaborate.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Getting advice early....

Postby Ron Don Volante » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:34 pm

moneybag121 wrote:You tell me Iowa sucks but give no information at all to why? Can you elaborate.

I was exaggerating of course, I just don't see what it has going to for it compared to its neighboring (non-Nebraskan) Big Ten schools. It's fine.




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