"I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker" Forum

[kaiser]

Why the hell are current HLS students chiming in on this to say whether or not it is worth it?

Totally anecdotal, but I know 3 people who went to H who have expressed some level of regret, largely due to a combo of (i) the huge debt payments and the way in which they affect your standard of living, and (ii) the inevitable discontent with biglaw and the realization that he/she is stuck there due to the debt load. This is in the biglaw context, so the hiring prospects out of H vs. CCN were never too different to begin with. So its only in retrospect they realize how the marginal cost outweighed the marginal benefit. Of these 3 H folks, 1 had a Hamilton offer, while the other 2 had full rides at lower T14's (I think one at Cornell, and another at Penn).

[koalacity]

Please do yourself a favor and seriously consider taking the $$. I turned down H for an MVP full scholly (also had CCN full scholly), and it was the best decision i've made. I worried about it a lot until I realized that what you do out of school is largely up to you, regardless of where you go (within reason).

My friends at HYS stress just as much about grades as we do here, and they worry just as much about getting a great 1L summer job as we do here. If you can swallow your pride (which is really pretty tough) and go with the practical choice here, I think you should do it. If you'll forever kick yourself for not taking HYS, then go there.

Either way...congrats...you've got a problem a lot of people would kill to have.

Are you a 1L?

Mal makes a great point. You shouldn't really be seeking advice from anyone who hasn't yet started paying their loans. It is super easy for a HLS 1L to say "yeah I turned down a Rubenstein scholarship and HLS is so great I'm sure I made the right decision." It is quite another thing to hear that from a recent grad who is now starting to make payments on his or her six-figure debt.

But...lastsamurai was saying that people *should* take the T14 full ride over HYS, and that he/she took the MVP $$$ over HLS and that it was a great decision.

[Emma.]

Please do yourself a favor and seriously consider taking the $$. I turned down H for an MVP full scholly (also had CCN full scholly), and it was the best decision i've made. I worried about it a lot until I realized that what you do out of school is largely up to you, regardless of where you go (within reason).

My friends at HYS stress just as much about grades as we do here, and they worry just as much about getting a great 1L summer job as we do here. If you can swallow your pride (which is really pretty tough) and go with the practical choice here, I think you should do it. If you'll forever kick yourself for not taking HYS, then go there.

Either way...congrats...you've got a problem a lot of people would kill to have.

Are you a 1L?

Mal makes a great point. You shouldn't really be seeking advice from anyone who hasn't yet started paying their loans. It is super easy for a HLS 1L to say "yeah I turned down a Rubenstein scholarship and HLS is so great I'm sure I made the right decision." It is quite another thing to hear that from a recent grad who is now starting to make payments on his or her six-figure debt.

But...lastsamurai was saying that people *should* take the T14 full ride over HYS, and that he/she took the MVP $$$ over HLS and that it was a great decision.

Yeah. My comment was more general. Of course there are current students like lastsamurai who are happy to have taken the money. And there may well be HYS grads who say they're glad they didn't take the money. The point is just that the full implications of the decision won't hit home for anyone until after graduation.

[Clearly]

Please do yourself a favor and seriously consider taking the $$. I turned down H for an MVP full scholly (also had CCN full scholly), and it was the best decision i've made. I worried about it a lot until I realized that what you do out of school is largely up to you, regardless of where you go (within reason).

My friends at HYS stress just as much about grades as we do here, and they worry just as much about getting a great 1L summer job as we do here. If you can swallow your pride (which is really pretty tough) and go with the practical choice here, I think you should do it. If you'll forever kick yourself for not taking HYS, then go there.

Either way...congrats...you've got a problem a lot of people would kill to have.

Are you a 1L?

Mal makes a great point. You shouldn't really be seeking advice from anyone who hasn't yet started paying their loans. It is super easy for a HLS 1L to say "yeah I turned down a Rubenstein scholarship and HLS is so great I'm sure I made the right decision." It is quite another thing to hear that from a recent grad who is now starting to make payments on his or her six-figure debt.

Except...he quoted one of the smart ones, who took the money, and doesn't have loans to pay back...

[jimmymac]

I'm curious about the value of a Ruby/Hamilton outside the money aspect.

I think we all can run in circles about whether or not to take the money- at the end of the day, everyone's situation is so different financially that the money discussion results in biased people stating what's best for them.

I wonder, though, how much value add there is to being a Ruby/Hamilton outside the money. If clerckship/BigFed is your goal, are you better off going to Harvard or CC with the named scholarships?

[Tiago Splitter]

Except...he quoted one of the smart ones, who took the money, and doesn't have loans to pay back...

It still doesn't mean much when the guy has only gone through one semester, whether he took the full ride or took HYS.

[kaiser]

Except...he quoted one of the smart ones, who took the money, and doesn't have loans to pay back...

It still doesn't mean much when the guy has only gone through one semester, whether he took the full ride or took HYS.

Exactly. Maybe if the guy is a 3L, with full time job lined up, then it would be more relevant (since then we can sort of compare outcomes).

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm curious about the value of a Ruby/Hamilton outside the money aspect.

I think we all can run in circles about whether or not to take the money- at the end of the day, everyone's situation is so different financially that the money discussion results in biased people stating what's best for them.

I wonder, though, how much value add there is to being a Ruby/Hamilton outside the money. If clerckship/BigFed is your goal, are you better off going to Harvard or CC with the named scholarships?

Employers will probably care more about what you did in law school than how you paid for it.

[rpupkin]

I'm curious about the value of a Ruby/Hamilton outside the money aspect.

I think we all can run in circles about whether or not to take the money- at the end of the day, everyone's situation is so different financially that the money discussion results in biased people stating what's best for them.

I wonder, though, how much value add there is to being a Ruby/Hamilton outside the money. If clerckship/BigFed is your goal, are you better off going to Harvard or CC with the named scholarships?

A named scholarship might help a bit in landing a 1L summer job. Other than that, I think its use is limited to the financial value of the scholarship. I doubt anyone cares about your named scholarship after you have a couple of semesters of grades. I've participated in both clerkship and law firm associate hiring, and it never even occurred to me to care about someone's named scholarship.

[UnicornHunter]

Except...he quoted one of the smart ones, who took the money, and doesn't have loans to pay back...

It still doesn't mean much when the guy has only gone through one semester, whether he took the full ride or took HYS.

Exactly. Maybe if the guy is a 3L, with full time job lined up, then it would be more relevant (since then we can sort of compare outcomes).

I don't think this is true. He'll have a lot more knowledge of whether or not the decision to go to MVP (and law school in general) was a good one by the time 3l roles around, but he won't have any additional information about how things would have turned out had he gone to HYS. I really doubt there's a T-14 graduates out there who can say with any degree of certainty that they would have gotten (desirable job x) if they had only gone to HYS.

[jbagelboy]

I turned down the Ruby for a nominal aid offer at Y/S (10k).

I have no regrets. The fact that grades don't really matter here (I mean, they do, but no GPA is a pretty huge difference in stress level compared to friends I talk to at these other law schools) is incredibly underrated by TLS. It's not the community's fault, but when you're at a school where BigLaw (AND MBB Consulting) comes to you, where people who want to do other things have no competition for it...it's nuts.

My story? I'm trying to work in sports. I have 1 other person in my class trying to do a similar job. People here got interviews and offers the same day they applied for summer jobs.

That said, if you want real prestige, like V5 firms or DOJ Honors or Feeder Clerkships, then yeah grades matter and there is stress. For the rest of us? Incredibly more low key.


I'm not looking for a V5 firm. I can get a BigLaw salary if I want, I can pull MBB if I put the work in for interviews, and I'm living out my dream summer job already. I'm sure this could happen taking the Ruby and working hard to be at the top at CCN, but not having to do so and still being 100% confident I'll come out fine...tough to put a price on that. Not to mention if you want PI or what have you, the back-end aid payout protects you pretty well.

okay everything you said would apply equally to Chicago or Columbia, except that you don't need great grades at those two schools for a V5.

there are some seriously misguided impressions and inflated opinions here. You don't have to be top of your class at the schools next to yours on the us news survey to get a big law job or work in consulting. I feel like this is the attitude some of the students in your class must perpetuate as an ex post justification for turning down large merit scholarships -- that they can work less hard for opportunities that only go to top students at other schools. This is true on the margins but not for the majority of students. maybe you'll be shocked to learn when you summer at your V30 in nyc or LA that the T14 student summering in the office next to you was lower in the class and less stressed than you were

[utahraptor]

Yeah, re: clerking and lifetime earnings boost, I doubt it - it's most valued for lit, and one of the more desired lit exit options seems to be AUSA, and AUSA salaries don't boost anyone's lifetime earnings. (They're not pennies, but not private sector either.)

also, you're talking about a cost that's underestimated by most students

giving up the year of biglaw income, even with the bonus (which is what, 50k most places now?) makes you fall short. this is doubly true when you realize that you're going to be taxed more on the year you get the bonus.

so then the question is how much does clerking help with partnership chances? maybe it helps you get your job at a place where you have a better shot at making partner (e.g., MTO) but in general, I don't think it's going to be a huge boost

but you'll always have that shiny, shiny star (and, less sarcastically, you'll probably be a better lawyer for it or whatever I guess; I'm too dumb to clerk)

[Instinctive]

I'm going to try to make my general point and then resist the urge to keep debating when people have a pretty set view and aren't going to change their mind. As fun as it is to be a little troll-y at the TLS hive mind, that hive-mind does a lot of good for a lot of people. Now, I'm sure this will ignite some flames, but I think the value to people in a similar situation down the road outweighs that.

1. For almost everyone, the refrain of "Don't go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer," holds true and is exactly the right advice. Everyone should listen, and everyone should take it very seriously.

2. For almost everyone, thinking very, very carefully about any debt at all is incredibly important. The debt is large and could hang over you for the rest of your life if you aren't careful. It should be taken very seriously.

3. For almost everyone, the trite TLS phrase, "You aren't a special snowflake," is true. Because most people aren't. Even people who are used to being one. Before you think you are, you need to take a long hard look in the mirror, and take it very seriously.


But the hidden piece behind the (incredibly patronizing) "special snowflake" talk is that some people are. People who get into Y/S, every other school, AND get the full-ride named scholarships at ALL of those schools...there's a decent chance they're correct in thinking that all these rules of thumb may not apply to them.

And that's a real thing. There are people to whom the rules do not necessarily apply. Take a professional sport like baseball: generally speaking, swinging at the first pitch and at pitches out of the zone all the time will work out poorly. Most professional baseball players are better served by working a count and waiting for a perfect pitch. And yet, there are guys every year who hit "bad-balls" and are "free-swinging" and it works for them. The same rules don't apply.

Now, I'll agree that most people who think they fall in that category do not. TLS testing that position is a good thing for almost everyone. But a little more room should probably be given for the potential that someone does fall in that category every once in a while. If you think you're in that category, you might be incredibly arrogant and it's going to bite you in the ass and the schaudenfreude (sp?) will be delicious for everyone on here. (Me? Potentially. I get that. We'll see.)

BUT. If you do fall in that category, you have successful mentors who help guide you, the debt isn't a big deal for one reason or another (e.g. safety net), etc...then the conventional rules may not apply. Be very careful before you put yourself in that category, but also don't be afraid to do something you feel is right. If you know you can do incredible things, and you know you'd rather live with failure than live without ever knowing what could have been...don't discount that.

When I made my choice, it was between a JD/MBA at Yale and the Ruby (and all the other named scholarships everywhere else I applied). Choosing Yale was a difficult decision...but my situation called for it. If all I cared about was having great financial security forever, maybe the Ruby would have been the right choice. But that's not me. Sure, I'd prefer better finances. But I also would have preferred to shoot for something great. If I failed, I think $100k with degrees from Yale is still a position that 99% of the nation would trade their lives for in an instant. If I never tried? I'd have thought about it for the rest of my life.

I made a similar choice to then back out after depositing at Yale when Stanford'd GSB and SLS accepted me off the WL. I'm trying to do something great with my life. I'm not trying to work my way through BigLaw for a few years and then move in-house somewhere when I start a family. If I was, the Ruby may have been far and away the right choice. Might I fail? Might I find, down the road, that to think I could make a difference somewhere or achieve something incredible was, in fact, just incredibly naive? Maybe. But sometimes you just have to do it and find out.




If you would forever regret not taking the opportunity to go up against the best of the best in law school and see where it takes you, I think it's pretty tough to turn down Y/S. If you want security, a solid job, opportunities abounding, and a downside-free life? Take the Ruby. It is an objectively safer decision in every sense of the word.

[UnicornHunter]

wall of cognitive dissonance

a: Not sure why you would choose Yale for an MBA/JD over Chicago, but w/e. Stanford makes more sense when you include the MBA program.

b. You're absolutely right that people who are in the position to choose between HYS and a Ruby or Hamilton have a better chance than most to do something special with their life. However, it's far from clear that attending HYS is going to do any work for you at that point*. There may be a few doors that those schools open that CCN won't but they are few and far between. If you're talking about doing great things, there's going to come a point (very quickly) where people stop giving a fuck about what top law school you went to. I would argue that not having 6 figures of debt hanging over one's head actually will give that person a greater chance of breaking out of the mold, because they have more freedom to take risks and pursue less immediately lucrative paths.



* The only obvious exception to this is legal Academia from Yale. The way they structure their courses gives their students a clear advantage in that field, but it's still far from guaranteed.

[utahraptor]

wall of text

a: Not sure why you would choose Yale for an MBA/JD over Chicago, but w/e. Stanford makes more sense when you include the MBA program.

yeah this isn't offensive at all

also, no offense, but if you're doing the double degree thing, it's pretty clear that you don't want to be a lawyer

that's OK, more power to you

most of the advice is skewed for people who are going to law school to be lawyers, though

[Desert Fox]

Does Yale even have an MBA program?

[Instinctive]

wall of text

a: Not sure why you would choose Yale for an MBA/JD over Chicago, but w/e. Stanford makes more sense when you include the MBA program.

yeah this isn't offensive at all

also, no offense, but if you're doing the double degree thing, it's pretty clear that you don't want to be a lawyer

that's OK, more power to you

most of the advice is skewed for people who are going to law school to be lawyers, though

Wasn't clear: My choice wasn't JD/MBA vs/ JD/MBA. It was Chicago Ruby alone, or JD/MBA other places. Booth didn't let me in If that helps make sense of this.

And yes, the advice is skewed that way and should be. I think I tried to make that clear. But there is a 1% of people that should be reminded it is possible the advice may not apply to them. Few and far between (poster above said this) is the perfect way to describe it.

[lastsamurai]

Yeah. My comment was more general. Of course there are current students like lastsamurai who are happy to have taken the money. And there may well be HYS grads who say they're glad they didn't take the money. The point is just that the full implications of the decision won't hit home for anyone until after graduation.

I hear what you're saying, but I'd say that the full implications hit home every month when the tuition bill comes out saying "Amount Due: 0."

[Elston Gunn]

I don't buy for one second that Y/S aren't competitive.

yeah, rofl @ that. Like maybe it's worse at other schools, but lol at the idea that we aren't competitive. It's just hidden behind an especially thick veneer of civility and charm because the grading system makes it slightly less zero sum. There's still a huge dichotomy in terms of opportunities though, and the competition for them is real.

The way I think about it is that the competition is much more self-selected. Like, this isn't wrong, but it's also really easy to avoid, and there's no job-related pressure to join in.

[Elston Gunn]

I took the shiny prestige, and I can't say I regret it yet, but I usually tell people to take the money.

[rpupkin]

okay everything you said would apply equally to Chicago or Columbia, except that you don't need great grades at those two schools for a V5.

You really don't. And how did the meme start that V5 = desirable outcome? I mean, I can understand the draw of landing WLRK and its way-above-market compensation. But for those other four firms? I don't get it.

[baal hadad]

You can always take ruby on rails classes instead of law skool

[jbagelboy]

okay everything you said would apply equally to Chicago or Columbia, except that you don't need great grades at those two schools for a V5.

You really don't. And how did the meme start that V5 = desirable outcome? I mean, I can understand the draw of landing WLRK and its way-above-market compensation. But for those other four firms? I don't get it.

it's not a meme yet (at least I hope not), the person posting it is a 1L and hasn't been through OCI

[Paul Campos]

Some people are money-hungry prestige whores. Others want to make a difference in this world. If you're in the latter group, consider Stanford's joint JD/MBA program.

[compass]

Please excuse my ignorance, but I'd be interested to know what makes Stanford's JD/MBA program special.