"I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

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Emma.
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby Emma. » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:54 am

abl wrote:
Sure -- but part of my point (actually MOST of my point) was that it's not all about the quantifiable numerical increase in chances.* A lot of the difference comes from the sort of information that's disseminated at these schools and the culture at these schools. YS at least have far, far more alums doing non-biglaw, and that sort of institutional knowledge and culture makes a big impact. If you are 100% sure that you want to do [x] job from the moment you start law school, the difference between you going to HYS and CCN is going to be much smaller -- assuming you stay committed to [x] job throughout. If, on the other hand, you suspect that you are interested in a certain category of job but are not sure, or simply care the most about doing something interesting and rewarding with your degree -- then, I think HYS vs CCN makes a very substantial difference. And the fact of the matter is that most top law students don't enter law school wanting to do biglaw. So many incoming students have other (generally much sexier) aspirations, if only vague aspirations. Far more of those students will see those aspirations fulfilled at HYS than at CCN. And if you're someone who places value on fulfilling whatever those aspirations are, that difference may be worth a ton. It is that marginal student who my post is directed to -- the ~25-50% of the class at HYS who are doing something pretty different from the biglaw-midlaw or biglaw-in house track within a couple of years of graduation.

Personally, I am fairly confident that I would not be in my current (amazing) job if I had attended CCN -- but not because I don't think I would have gotten an interview or wouldn't have been hired had I applied. I don't actually think I would have applied at all. I was very, very close to accepting a position in biglaw and was only dissuaded because there was just barely a critical mass of people in my very broad circle who were doing or thinking about doing some similar less traditional thing. Take even one of them away and I'm not sure I'm here. My sense from talking to these folks is that many of their decisions were similarly influenced and similarly close to never being made.

*I also think you've understated the amount of impact that HYS have on hiring as compared with CCN. After several years of post-law school experience in several high-profile jobs (many of which included some involvement in hiring), I've been continually struck by how often the legal community doesn't draw fine distinctions between the top law schools -- with the exception of HYS. My experience has been that a Michigan candidate in the top 10% will be treated virtually indistinguishably from a Columbia or Northwestern candidate in the top 10%. However, I've never been in an environment in which HYS didn't get some sort of special consideration--whether that meant being put on the top of the pile, looking at references for candidates that would otherwise have been prescreened, etc. HYS (especially YS in my experience) got a relatively very serious look usually regardless of anything else. I agree that the increases in chances out of HYS for unicorn jobs is very hard to quantify, and only likely impacts several students on the margins each year -- but I don't think that it makes the difference insubstantial or not worth paying any money for. When you are one of seven people from your school interested in some category of amazing job in a year, it makes a heck of a difference if five out of seven of these folks will get hired as opposed to three. Of course, this is all anecdotal and speculative.

What is not anecdotal that you've also overlooked is the impact that clerkships have on these sorts of chances. There are whole categories of "unicorn" job for which a clerkship is basically a requirement -- and since there are very substantial differences in clerkship %, at least between YS and the rest, that results in pretty substantial difference in chances. And given that not everyone at these schools wants to clerk, the difference between a 30% Article III clerkship rate and a 10% Article III clerkship rate is very likely the difference between a 50% clerk placement rate and a 20% rate.


Wait, what? Your argument is now (or maybe always was) that folks can get the same elusive & idyllic jobs from CCN but they might get swayed away from them by winding up in a class where more folks are on the biglaw track? That seems crazy to me, especially if you are talking about S or H, rather than Y. While it might be true that you would have wound up in biglaw from one of CCN rather than landing your super special job from HYS, how can it possibly make sense for someone who has already decided they don't want to take the biglaw track to give up a huge scholarship for what you now appear to concede isn't a much greater increase in chance of landing that job. What, they should pay $200K+ to avoid the chance that they might get swayed away from their current aspirations by going to a more biglaw-focused school?

I think, since you appear to acknowledge this, we can assume that the Rubenstein kid has a somewhat similar (though maybe slightly reduced) chance of landing one of these great jobs. So if landing one of these jobs is already so important to that person as an 0L that they are considering paying $200K to improve their chances of landing it, isn't it safe to assume they'll probably manage to maintain that aspiration even if all their law school friends wind up on the biglaw track? And if landing one of these jobs isn't that important to the person as an 0L, isn't it crazy to pay the extra $200K on the chance that they'll develop that aspiration during law school (or rather, the chance that they won't be able to develop that aspiration by going to one of CCN)

And what are these jobs? What are the secret idyllic clerkship-required jobs anyway?

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BruceWayne
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:52 am

utahraptor wrote:Bruce, I think we know why you struck out now.

Anyway, cogently:

(1) Look at the thread title. Look at it. Reflect on your sins.

(2) What's your experience with legal hiring? I thought you were a vale-r. No?

(3) I agree that GPA floors exist at many firms. They don't seem to exist at other firms, at least for CCN students. This isn't controversial.

(4) Very very few students have grades so low that they are barred across the board. In order to be that far removed from the curve, you would need to be in the bottom 1% of the class. Frankly, I'm not troubled that the bottom 1% has a hard time finding a job. From a pre-law-school perspective, it's silly to fixate on something so improbable.

(5) I understand that students are as likely to be in the top 20% as the bottom 20%, but do you understand the way that grade distributions work at CLS and NYU? We're talking about six grades with limited options among them—there aren't fine differences making a clean curve. It's chunky. In fact, the curve is so chunky that you have a hard time differentiating between someone in the bottom of the class and the middle of the class. That's the way the curve was designed. Your range at the low end is something like a 3.0 to a 3.3. Yes, a sub 3.0 student will stand out. But, there are so few B-s given that you're talking about, again, the bottom 1%. Not the bottom 20%, or the bottom half, the bottom 1%.

(6) My approach is don't pay too much money worrying about potential downside when it ruins your upside. This is why I find your posts baffling. I'm not telling people to not go to a T14. I'm not telling people to take CLS over Harvard at equal cost. I'm saying hey, you should really consider what six figure debt means, and what kind of insurance you're buying with that debt.

That's what this is—OCI strike-out insurance. I wouldn't buy that for 100k+. Apparently you would, otherwise I don't know why you're arguing with me. Again, my contention is that I'd rather strike out at OCI with a Ruby/Hamilton/Dillard than get a job with HLS sticker debt. I stand by that. This is different than quibbling about the employment percentages—I'm saying that even if your asinine posts about hiring and grades made sense (which the numbers indicate they absolutely do not) you still lose.

Is that clear? Do you disagree? I'd rather drop out after 1L, or rethink my strategy or something else with no debt than be strapped to a sticker price tag just for the amazing opportunity to be a big lawyer.

This is why I question your credentials, Bruce. It seems like you're glorifying the upside of not-striking out.

I'm saying you should always take the amazing scholarship—I don't care if it's the Ruby, if it's a Dillard, if it's NU ED. I'm not saying go to Fordham for free (though I understand why others would advocate that). I'm saying that under no circumstance does sticker level debt make sense.



Utahraptor you are a true dumbass and 90 percent of what you say is based on ad hominems and strawmen. I have to admit I do see why other high end professionals aren't that impressed with attorneys considering that you managed to get into Columbia.

1) You are a moron. I said from the very beginning that I wasn't arguing that it's worth it to pay damn sticker at HYS over a full ride at CCN, or frankly any top 14. The issue that I specifically pointed out from the get go was an important difference between the schools that you were not addressing--you have significantly better unemployment insurance at HYS than the other schools. In fact several other posters noted that they understood that I was making that argument and then proceeded to mention that they were more focused on the sticker vs. free debate. How your reading comprehension skills are so poor as to not be able to discern this I do not know.

2) This is beyond idiotic and really what makes it so stupid is that ad hominem you're trying to make, that if I'm an unemployed grad I would not be qualified to explain the legal hiring process/market , is moronic because if anything it would mean that I would have significant experience with what is most likely to cause someone to be unemployed. However, the crowning jewel of how ridiculous this is that I'm a practicing attorney. Lol and from the sound of your post you apparently only have experience with OCI in regards to legal hiring lol. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

3) Apparently it is pretty controversial because you seem to think there is no point at which someone's grades could be bad enough to shut them out of big firms from these schools--unsurprisingly you're wrong. It's happened to people on this website.

4) Frankly, you don't know wtf you're talking about.
5) Lol you don't get it do you. It's a numerical GPA system. The only "fine" distinction that they need to make is whether your GPA says 3.0 or worse. There are threads on this forum with people who have pulled that sort of GPA from CCN and had serious problems as a result. In fact, strangely enough, other students from those schools have actually responded to them explaining that they were going to have a very difficult time. Unsurprisingly they probably have much more experience than you do.

6) Lol believe me I understand that you're "baffled". That's generally how people who don't know what the hell they're talking about feel. You're literally arguing against a straw man that absolutely no one is making. But if it makes you feel better to repeatedly shout the absurdly obvious observation that it's better to attend Columbia, The University of Chicago, or NYU law for free as opposed to HYS at sticker price (a scenario that is really only going to come into play for someone who can essentially afford that anyway) by all means continue to do so.



Tiago Splitter wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:And yet I still wasn't able to address everything wrong with Utahraptor's uninformed comments. It's unreal.

Also the most recent nlj numbers sure as hell don't depict a return of the boom days like a few in this thread have been intimating...I was expecting to see 70% stats like back in the old days. Yeah not so much.


Tiago Splitter wrote:Biglaw (101+ attorneys) plus FedClerk hiring numbers for class of 2013:

Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
Stanford: 48.5 + 29.4 = 77.8%
Chicago: 62.3 + 10.2 = 72.6%
Harvard: 54.5 + 17.0 = 71.5%
Penn: 59.8 + 9.3 = 69.1%
Cornell: 57.5 + 10.9 = 68.4%
NYU: 58.3 + 8.8 = 67.0%
Yale: 30.5 + 35 = 65.5%
Northwestern: 55.6 + 7.7 = 63.4%
UVA: 50 + 12.9 = 62.9%
Duke: 51.4 + 8.7 = 60.2%
Michigan: 49.4 + 7.8 = 57.1%
Berkeley: 47.8 + 8.0 = 55.8%
GULC: 41.4 + 5.1 = 46.5%
Vanderbilt: 35.9 + 9.2 = 45.1%
Texas: 33.3 + 9.0 = 42.3%
UCLA: 32.5 + 6.9 = 39.5%
Fordham: 34.1 + 2.5 = 36.6%
Boston College: 29.6 + 4.3 = 34%
Notre Dame: 28.3 + 5.4 = 33.7%
USC (LinkRemoved): 29.8 + 3.8 = 33.6%
WUSTL: 29 + 3.3 = 32.3%
Illinois: 24.7 + 3.4 = 28.1%
BU: 24.1 +2.5 = 26.6%
William and Mary: 21.7 + 3.7 = 25.3%
Alabama: 12.0 + 10.2 = 22.3%
Ohio State: 16.9 + 4.4 = 21.3%
Washington and Lee: 16.1 + 3.5 = 19.6%
Minnesota: 13.5 + 3.6 = 17.1%
Wake Forest: 13.2 + 3.1 = 16.3%
Hastings: 13.4 + 1.6 = 15%



http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571



And FTR a lot of 0Ls and current law students don't understand it because they are fixated on this website's self made ranking demarcations and U.S. News, but what abl is saying is BEYOND correct and frankly is very common knowledge (especially outside of the NYC market). For 90 percent of legal employers it's "You went to one of HYS" or "you went to another top law school" which essentially means the top 14. This is especially true as you move further and further away from law school and when you are looking at non firm positions. Obviously it's not worth paying sticker debt over a full freaking ride at a school like Columbia for any would be Captain Obviouses' out there, but it's something to consider when the stakes are closer.

abl
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby abl » Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:56 am

you've made these kinds of statements on here before. I think you are taking the rather interesting opinions of your particular judge or government office and making a gross generalization about their applicability. those aberrant opinions have reaffirmed the position you took when you chose schools in a tough market. my judge treats harvard and columbia grades with a far more negligible distinction than columbia and UVA, for example. I'm sure this varies market to market and on the east coast, harvard and to an even greater degree yale generally receive stronger consideration, but as always you vastly exaggerate the difference between the set of top schools (including "HYS") and how people (outside of maybe legal academia) perceive them and their graduates.


I don't think they're "aberrant" opinions. And I think the point at which these mini-tiers makes the biggest difference is with clerkships -- without a doubt, some judges (but not all) do care to varying degrees.

But I think it's obvious that the further removed from law school you become, the less interested people are in putting weight on these sorts of bizarre fine distinctions between schools. I've been fairly substantially involved in seven legal organizations over the past six years, and if there's been one universal thread throughout all of them, it's this: with fail, these little differences that seem huge to 0Ls, 1Ls, and even sometimes to recent graduates, matter very little to longtime practicing attorneys. I've seen two consistent exceptions to this: (1) folks really do put a premium on the roughly T14 schools and (2) people do usually separate out some combination of HYS from the rest (usually all three). Now, my experience has been primarily in the west, Midwest, and abroad, so you may be right -- things might be different on the east coast. But I suspect that my first point regarding people losing interest (as they grow older) in distinguishing between Virginia and Northwestern and NYU holds true anywhere.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:07 pm

Honestly, though, look at the thread title and the first post. Maybe you think it's a Captain Obvious post to say that HYS at sticker is not worth passing on a full ride from CCN (or to lesser degree, other T14s), but honestly, that has been the topic of this thread. It just has been. It's what people have been talking about before you bust in here.

abl
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby abl » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:25 pm

Emma. wrote:
abl wrote:
Sure -- but part of my point (actually MOST of my point) was that it's not all about the quantifiable numerical increase in chances.* A lot of the difference comes from the sort of information that's disseminated at these schools and the culture at these schools. YS at least have far, far more alums doing non-biglaw, and that sort of institutional knowledge and culture makes a big impact. If you are 100% sure that you want to do [x] job from the moment you start law school, the difference between you going to HYS and CCN is going to be much smaller -- assuming you stay committed to [x] job throughout. If, on the other hand, you suspect that you are interested in a certain category of job but are not sure, or simply care the most about doing something interesting and rewarding with your degree -- then, I think HYS vs CCN makes a very substantial difference. And the fact of the matter is that most top law students don't enter law school wanting to do biglaw. So many incoming students have other (generally much sexier) aspirations, if only vague aspirations. Far more of those students will see those aspirations fulfilled at HYS than at CCN. And if you're someone who places value on fulfilling whatever those aspirations are, that difference may be worth a ton. It is that marginal student who my post is directed to -- the ~25-50% of the class at HYS who are doing something pretty different from the biglaw-midlaw or biglaw-in house track within a couple of years of graduation.

Personally, I am fairly confident that I would not be in my current (amazing) job if I had attended CCN -- but not because I don't think I would have gotten an interview or wouldn't have been hired had I applied. I don't actually think I would have applied at all. I was very, very close to accepting a position in biglaw and was only dissuaded because there was just barely a critical mass of people in my very broad circle who were doing or thinking about doing some similar less traditional thing. Take even one of them away and I'm not sure I'm here. My sense from talking to these folks is that many of their decisions were similarly influenced and similarly close to never being made.

*I also think you've understated the amount of impact that HYS have on hiring as compared with CCN. After several years of post-law school experience in several high-profile jobs (many of which included some involvement in hiring), I've been continually struck by how often the legal community doesn't draw fine distinctions between the top law schools -- with the exception of HYS. My experience has been that a Michigan candidate in the top 10% will be treated virtually indistinguishably from a Columbia or Northwestern candidate in the top 10%. However, I've never been in an environment in which HYS didn't get some sort of special consideration--whether that meant being put on the top of the pile, looking at references for candidates that would otherwise have been prescreened, etc. HYS (especially YS in my experience) got a relatively very serious look usually regardless of anything else. I agree that the increases in chances out of HYS for unicorn jobs is very hard to quantify, and only likely impacts several students on the margins each year -- but I don't think that it makes the difference insubstantial or not worth paying any money for. When you are one of seven people from your school interested in some category of amazing job in a year, it makes a heck of a difference if five out of seven of these folks will get hired as opposed to three. Of course, this is all anecdotal and speculative.

What is not anecdotal that you've also overlooked is the impact that clerkships have on these sorts of chances. There are whole categories of "unicorn" job for which a clerkship is basically a requirement -- and since there are very substantial differences in clerkship %, at least between YS and the rest, that results in pretty substantial difference in chances. And given that not everyone at these schools wants to clerk, the difference between a 30% Article III clerkship rate and a 10% Article III clerkship rate is very likely the difference between a 50% clerk placement rate and a 20% rate.


Wait, what? Your argument is now (or maybe always was) that folks can get the same elusive & idyllic jobs from CCN but they might get swayed away from them by winding up in a class where more folks are on the biglaw track? That seems crazy to me, especially if you are talking about S or H, rather than Y. While it might be true that you would have wound up in biglaw from one of CCN rather than landing your super special job from HYS, how can it possibly make sense for someone who has already decided they don't want to take the biglaw track to give up a huge scholarship for what you now appear to concede isn't a much greater increase in chance of landing that job. What, they should pay $200K+ to avoid the chance that they might get swayed away from their current aspirations by going to a more biglaw-focused school?

I think, since you appear to acknowledge this, we can assume that the Rubenstein kid has a somewhat similar (though maybe slightly reduced) chance of landing one of these great jobs. So if landing one of these jobs is already so important to that person as an 0L that they are considering paying $200K to improve their chances of landing it, isn't it safe to assume they'll probably manage to maintain that aspiration even if all their law school friends wind up on the biglaw track? And if landing one of these jobs isn't that important to the person as an 0L, isn't it crazy to pay the extra $200K on the chance that they'll develop that aspiration during law school (or rather, the chance that they won't be able to develop that aspiration by going to one of CCN)

And what are these jobs? What are the secret idyllic clerkship-required jobs anyway?


The fact that you keep lumping Stanford in with Harvard for these types of distinction make me think that you really don't know all that much about these schools: in just about every way relevant to my points, Stanford is much more similar to Yale than it is to Harvard. But that's really besides the point.

My point about why it makes sense for someone who has already decided they don't want biglaw to go to HYS over CCN is because the majority of incoming students at all of these schools enter leaning away from biglaw. I'd guess that somewhere between 50-80% of incoming students enter law school *most* excited about other possibilities. And most of those students have turned down boatloads of money at very respectable law schools to be at HYS. But relatively few of them will ultimately end up pursuing one of those other possibilities -- and trust me, it's not because biglaw is even more wonderful than 0Ls imagine. Instead, the pressure to do biglaw is substantial at any school, and the path to biglaw is well-tread. Even at Yale, there are large numbers of students every year who get funneled into what most on this board with experience would describe as being a pretty mediocre career. Regardless of where you go, the chances that you're going to give up a much more ideal job for biglaw are pretty darn substantial: these great jobs are very hard to find whereas biglaw at HYS in particular, but also at CCN, works very hard to find you.

For the reasons I've already been through, there are very real differences between the pressures and opportunities at HYS and CCN, which lead to substantially fewer students being sucked into the gaping maw of biglaw. (Sorry, I liked the rhyme.). Maybe the OP will find the amazing job either way. But I wouldn't count on it.

Finally, your throwaway "well what are these great jobs anyway" comment says a lot about how hard they are to find, especially if you're not at a school where these opportunities are being advertised. Put most simply, they are the jobs that roughly 20-40% of HYS kids are doing instead of biglaw. But there's no real easy way to break them out, because they're generally all the sort of pretty unique opportunities that only open up rarely. Probably a plurality are knowable things like academia*, DOJ honors, high-profile public interest like the ACLU/NRDC/NAACP/etc, and interesting positions in the tech / startup world. Some are jobs in the very small elite defense side firms -- places like Bancroft*. Some are jobs in the very rare excellent plaintiffs-side firms -- places like Cohen Milstein. But most probably fall into the "other" category* -- front office jobs in a major sports team, the special NY commission to investigate corruption, public policy director of a state officeholder's campaign, etc (none of which is going to individually present more than one or two opportunities nationwide over a several year period, but which in the aggregate add up to a ton of really cool jobs).

*Requires (or, in the case of "Other," often requires) a clerkship. Note that for many of the remaining -- like DOJ honors -- a clerkship is very, very helpful.

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Emma.
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby Emma. » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:45 pm

abl wrote:
Emma. wrote:
abl wrote:
Sure -- but part of my point (actually MOST of my point) was that it's not all about the quantifiable numerical increase in chances.* A lot of the difference comes from the sort of information that's disseminated at these schools and the culture at these schools. YS at least have far, far more alums doing non-biglaw, and that sort of institutional knowledge and culture makes a big impact. If you are 100% sure that you want to do [x] job from the moment you start law school, the difference between you going to HYS and CCN is going to be much smaller -- assuming you stay committed to [x] job throughout. If, on the other hand, you suspect that you are interested in a certain category of job but are not sure, or simply care the most about doing something interesting and rewarding with your degree -- then, I think HYS vs CCN makes a very substantial difference. And the fact of the matter is that most top law students don't enter law school wanting to do biglaw. So many incoming students have other (generally much sexier) aspirations, if only vague aspirations. Far more of those students will see those aspirations fulfilled at HYS than at CCN. And if you're someone who places value on fulfilling whatever those aspirations are, that difference may be worth a ton. It is that marginal student who my post is directed to -- the ~25-50% of the class at HYS who are doing something pretty different from the biglaw-midlaw or biglaw-in house track within a couple of years of graduation.

Personally, I am fairly confident that I would not be in my current (amazing) job if I had attended CCN -- but not because I don't think I would have gotten an interview or wouldn't have been hired had I applied. I don't actually think I would have applied at all. I was very, very close to accepting a position in biglaw and was only dissuaded because there was just barely a critical mass of people in my very broad circle who were doing or thinking about doing some similar less traditional thing. Take even one of them away and I'm not sure I'm here. My sense from talking to these folks is that many of their decisions were similarly influenced and similarly close to never being made.

*I also think you've understated the amount of impact that HYS have on hiring as compared with CCN. After several years of post-law school experience in several high-profile jobs (many of which included some involvement in hiring), I've been continually struck by how often the legal community doesn't draw fine distinctions between the top law schools -- with the exception of HYS. My experience has been that a Michigan candidate in the top 10% will be treated virtually indistinguishably from a Columbia or Northwestern candidate in the top 10%. However, I've never been in an environment in which HYS didn't get some sort of special consideration--whether that meant being put on the top of the pile, looking at references for candidates that would otherwise have been prescreened, etc. HYS (especially YS in my experience) got a relatively very serious look usually regardless of anything else. I agree that the increases in chances out of HYS for unicorn jobs is very hard to quantify, and only likely impacts several students on the margins each year -- but I don't think that it makes the difference insubstantial or not worth paying any money for. When you are one of seven people from your school interested in some category of amazing job in a year, it makes a heck of a difference if five out of seven of these folks will get hired as opposed to three. Of course, this is all anecdotal and speculative.

What is not anecdotal that you've also overlooked is the impact that clerkships have on these sorts of chances. There are whole categories of "unicorn" job for which a clerkship is basically a requirement -- and since there are very substantial differences in clerkship %, at least between YS and the rest, that results in pretty substantial difference in chances. And given that not everyone at these schools wants to clerk, the difference between a 30% Article III clerkship rate and a 10% Article III clerkship rate is very likely the difference between a 50% clerk placement rate and a 20% rate.


Wait, what? Your argument is now (or maybe always was) that folks can get the same elusive & idyllic jobs from CCN but they might get swayed away from them by winding up in a class where more folks are on the biglaw track? That seems crazy to me, especially if you are talking about S or H, rather than Y. While it might be true that you would have wound up in biglaw from one of CCN rather than landing your super special job from HYS, how can it possibly make sense for someone who has already decided they don't want to take the biglaw track to give up a huge scholarship for what you now appear to concede isn't a much greater increase in chance of landing that job. What, they should pay $200K+ to avoid the chance that they might get swayed away from their current aspirations by going to a more biglaw-focused school?

I think, since you appear to acknowledge this, we can assume that the Rubenstein kid has a somewhat similar (though maybe slightly reduced) chance of landing one of these great jobs. So if landing one of these jobs is already so important to that person as an 0L that they are considering paying $200K to improve their chances of landing it, isn't it safe to assume they'll probably manage to maintain that aspiration even if all their law school friends wind up on the biglaw track? And if landing one of these jobs isn't that important to the person as an 0L, isn't it crazy to pay the extra $200K on the chance that they'll develop that aspiration during law school (or rather, the chance that they won't be able to develop that aspiration by going to one of CCN)

And what are these jobs? What are the secret idyllic clerkship-required jobs anyway?


The fact that you keep lumping Stanford in with Harvard for these types of distinction make me think that you really don't know all that much about these schools: in just about every way relevant to my points, Stanford is much more similar to Yale than it is to Harvard. But that's really besides the point.

My point about why it makes sense for someone who has already decided they don't want biglaw to go to HYS over CCN is because the majority of incoming students at all of these schools enter leaning away from biglaw. I'd guess that somewhere between 50-80% of incoming students enter law school *most* excited about other possibilities. And most of those students have turned down boatloads of money at very respectable law schools to be at HYS. But relatively few of them will ultimately end up pursuing one of those other possibilities -- and trust me, it's not because biglaw is even more wonderful than 0Ls imagine. Instead, the pressure to do biglaw is substantial at any school, and the path to biglaw is well-tread. Even at Yale, there are large numbers of students every year who get funneled into what most on this board with experience would describe as being a pretty mediocre career. Regardless of where you go, the chances that you're going to give up a much more ideal job for biglaw are pretty darn substantial: these great jobs are very hard to find whereas biglaw at HYS in particular, but also at CCN, works very hard to find you.

For the reasons I've already been through, there are very real differences between the pressures and opportunities at HYS and CCN, which lead to substantially fewer students being sucked into the gaping maw of biglaw. (Sorry, I liked the rhyme.). Maybe the OP will find the amazing job either way. But I wouldn't count on it.

Finally, your throwaway "well what are these great jobs anyway" comment says a lot about how hard they are to find, especially if you're not at a school where these opportunities are being advertised. Put most simply, they are the jobs that roughly 20-40% of HYS kids are doing instead of biglaw. But there's no real easy way to break them out, because they're generally all the sort of pretty unique opportunities that only open up rarely. Probably a plurality are knowable things like academia*, DOJ honors, high-profile public interest like the ACLU/NRDC/NAACP/etc, and interesting positions in the tech / startup world. Some are jobs in the very small elite defense side firms -- places like Bancroft*. Some are jobs in the very rare excellent plaintiffs-side firms -- places like Cohen Milstein. But most probably fall into the "other" category* -- front office jobs in a major sports team, the special NY commission to investigate corruption, public policy director of a state officeholder's campaign, etc (none of which is going to individually present more than one or two opportunities nationwide over a several year period, but which in the aggregate add up to a ton of really cool jobs).

*Requires (or, in the case of "Other," often requires) a clerkship. Note that for many of the remaining -- like DOJ honors -- a clerkship is very, very helpful.


OK, there's a bunch of flaws in this but I'm getting busy in the next few days so I'm checking out of this thread. Agree to disagree, I guess.

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utahraptor
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby utahraptor » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:56 pm

OK Bruce I'll keep cutting you down, because the forum would legitimately be better if you stopped posting:

First, as a general preface, it's odd to complain about ad hominem attacks/strawmen/etc and then spend half of the time calling me stupid, friendo. I don't think I'm a clever man. That said, I know I'm right here.

I said from the very beginning that I wasn't arguing that it's worth it to pay damn sticker at HYS over a full ride at CCN, or frankly any top 14. The issue that I specifically pointed out from the get go was an important difference between the schools that you were not addressing--you have significantly better unemployment insurance at HYS than the other schools. In fact several other posters noted that they understood that I was making that argument and then proceeded to mention that they were more focused on the sticker vs. free debate. How your reading comprehension skills are so poor as to not be able to discern this I do not know.


What is the topic of the thread? "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker" Which of us isn't reading, now?

However, the crowning jewel of how ridiculous this is that I'm a practicing attorney.

Great! Again, what's your experience with legal hiring? What kind of job do you have? Did you get your job through OGI?

Apparently it is pretty controversial because you seem to think there is no point at which someone's grades could be bad enough to shut them out of big firms from these schools--unsurprisingly you're wrong. It's happened to people on this website.
Again, if someone is absolutely in the bottom of the class, near the bottom 1%, that wouldn't surprise me. But, who did this happen to? Who are you talking about Bruce?

4) Frankly, you don't know wtf you're talking about.


That was in response to this:

(4) Very very few students have grades so low that they are barred across the board. In order to be that far removed from the curve, you would need to be in the bottom 1% of the class. Frankly, I'm not troubled that the bottom 1% has a hard time finding a job. From a pre-law-school perspective, it's silly to fixate on something so improbable.


Do you have a response? Are you concerned about the bottom 1%, or not? Do you have data to back up your point?

But if it makes you feel better to repeatedly shout the absurdly obvious observation that it's better to attend Columbia, The University of Chicago, or NYU law for free as opposed to HYS at sticker price (a scenario that is really only going to come into play for someone who can essentially afford that anyway) by all means continue to do so.

Again, that's the thread, duder—"I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker".

What is your point, specifically? I spelled out my advice in myriads ways in my post. Go for free. If you can't go for free, go for cheap. This sort of line drawing only makes sense if you're engaging in a discussion that nobody else in the thread was having. If you want to make a thread that debates the merits of a Butler at CLS to Harvard Sticker, go ahead. There might be something to talk about there. But that's not this thread.

Regarding the NLJ numbers, we've gone through the problems with them in many other threads. Pretty much they don't captures all of the relevant data.

Moreover, you're still dodging my central point in various ways do you think it's worth paying sticker to be "biglaw secure?" That's a controversial opinion here now, friendo, and the TLS CW moved away from what people of your era were told as more posters who worked in Biglaw wrote about how it wasn't that desirable of an outcome. The other posts in this thread are now focused on jobs that are more desirable and looking at that as the potential upside. That's different than looking at minute differences in Biglaw hiring.

Even using your preferred numbers, we're talking about a 12% gap between H and Michigan. How much money are you willing to spend chasing a 12% gap?

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utahraptor
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby utahraptor » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:00 pm

and to be crystal my repeated "wait, what's your experience here" question isn't to laugh you off as an OGI strikeout—

Rather, what you're saying will have a different meaning depending on what your experience is. Saying "I'm an attorney" isn't satisfying. Is it biglaw? Did you want biglaw?

I ask because it really seems like you're talking about yourself in your posts, Bruce. Maybe you're not, but the fixation on Biglaw hiring seems just odd to me, especially because if we called in the current Biglaw attorneys to this thread, I'm sure they would all laugh you down.

This is a DF (and whoever else) call-in btw. Help us out.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:10 pm

ITT: A UVA strike-out pontificates on why his estimate of the likelihood of striking out at CCN is better than the estimates generated by current CCN students and objective data.

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Desert Fox
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:42 pm

I think UVA's "preselect" really magnifies the effect of grades on hiring. If you just a resumes with GPAs and you have to cut most of the applications, the low GPA gets cut every time.

But looking at HLS's and YLS' employment, they are pretty damn near full employment. Maybe 5-7% underemployment.

But, at least at NW c/o 13, that number isn't all that much higher. Maybe 15%. I'm sure CCN is similar or better.

However, looking at 9 months after graduation to determine worth of degree is a huge mistake. Half are going to flame out of biglaw well before they pay off even a decent portion of the debt. Some are going to hate themselves.

Even if the difference is Δ10% jobpwnage, it isn't worth much money.

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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby dobryden » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:35 pm

I'm a 1L, so take what I say with a grain of salt (the salt being that I haven't had to start paying back the debt yet!) - but I turned down the Ruby last year after extensive deliberation and went to YLS to try my hand at landing a unicorn job. I feel certain that I made the right decision for me. YLS is paying for part of my tuition and I don't have undergraduate debt, so the financial burden isn't unmanageable - but what I really didn't understand at the time was how unparalleled the access to resources/networks/ridiculous facetime with important people would be.

I feel pretty strongly at this point that if you aspire to work at a firm or something more run-of-the-mill, CCN with money is a fantastic choice. If you want to be a professor or do human rights or be that Supreme Court Clerk, Yale seems to be the better fit. Ruby is great if you want immediate financial security and are willing to take the gamble on your performance in school; HYS is great if you want longer-term job security/knowledge that you'll get a good job regardless of academic performance and you're willing to take a gamble on your finances shaking out.

Feel free to PM me for advice on the situation; happy to help anyone out if I can.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:40 pm

dobryden wrote: YLS is paying for part of my tuition and I don't have undergraduate debt


this doesnt apply to probably most of the people choosing between HYS and $$$

If you want to be a professor or do human rights or be that Supreme Court Clerk, Yale seems to be the better fit.


so by going to HYS you increase the likeliness of being a professor or SCOTUS clerk from what 1% to 2%?

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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby Mal Reynolds » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:45 pm

dobryden wrote:I'm a 1L, so take what I say with a grain of salt (the salt being that I haven't had to start paying back the debt yet!) - but I turned down the Ruby last year after extensive deliberation and went to YLS to try my hand at landing a unicorn job. I feel certain that I made the right decision for me. YLS is paying for part of my tuition and I don't have undergraduate debt, so the financial burden isn't unmanageable - but what I really didn't understand at the time was how unparalleled the access to resources/networks/ridiculous facetime with important people would be.

I feel pretty strongly at this point that if you aspire to work at a firm or something more run-of-the-mill, CCN with money is a fantastic choice. If you want to be a professor or do human rights or be that Supreme Court Clerk, Yale seems to be the better fit. Ruby is great if you want immediate financial security and are willing to take the gamble on your performance in school; HYS is great if you want longer-term job security/knowledge that you'll get a good job regardless of academic performance and you're willing to take a gamble on your finances shaking out.

Feel free to PM me for advice on the situation; happy to help anyone out if I can.


LJL

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Desert Fox
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:55 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
dobryden wrote:I'm a 1L, so take what I say with a grain of salt (the salt being that I haven't had to start paying back the debt yet!) - but I turned down the Ruby last year after extensive deliberation and went to YLS to try my hand at landing a unicorn job. I feel certain that I made the right decision for me. YLS is paying for part of my tuition and I don't have undergraduate debt, so the financial burden isn't unmanageable - but what I really didn't understand at the time was how unparalleled the access to resources/networks/ridiculous facetime with important people would be.

I feel pretty strongly at this point that if you aspire to work at a firm or something more run-of-the-mill, CCN with money is a fantastic choice. If you want to be a professor or do human rights or be that Supreme Court Clerk, Yale seems to be the better fit. Ruby is great if you want immediate financial security and are willing to take the gamble on your performance in school; HYS is great if you want longer-term job security/knowledge that you'll get a good job regardless of academic performance and you're willing to take a gamble on your finances shaking out.

Feel free to PM me for advice on the situation; happy to help anyone out if I can.


LJL


just lol

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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:02 pm

dobryden wrote:YLS is paying for part of my tuition and I don't have undergraduate debt, so the financial burden isn't unmanageable - but what I really didn't understand at the time was how unparalleled the access to resources/networks/ridiculous facetime with important people would be.

Uhhhhh

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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby Moneytrees » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:26 pm

dobryden wrote:I'm a 1L, so take what I say with a grain of salt (the salt being that I haven't had to start paying back the debt yet!) - but I turned down the Ruby last year after extensive deliberation and went to YLS to try my hand at landing a unicorn job. I feel certain that I made the right decision for me. YLS is paying for part of my tuition and I don't have undergraduate debt, so the financial burden isn't unmanageable - but what I really didn't understand at the time was how unparalleled the access to resources/networks/ridiculous facetime with important people would be.

I feel pretty strongly at this point that if you aspire to work at a firm or something more run-of-the-mill, CCN with money is a fantastic choice. If you want to be a professor or do human rights or be that Supreme Court Clerk, Yale seems to be the better fit. Ruby is great if you want immediate financial security and are willing to take the gamble on your performance in school; HYS is great if you want longer-term job security/knowledge that you'll get a good job regardless of academic performance and you're willing to take a gamble on your finances shaking out.

Feel free to PM me for advice on the situation; happy to help anyone out if I can.


This is seriously the best argument a Yale student could muster to justify hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt? The cognitive dissonance on this thread is shocking.

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yomisterd
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby yomisterd » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:28 pm

somebody tl;dr this thread for me

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:37 pm

yomisterd wrote:somebody tl;dr this thread for me

"I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby UnicornHunter » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:10 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
dobryden wrote:I'm a 1L, so take what I say with a grain of salt (the salt being that I haven't had to start paying back the debt yet!) - but I turned down the Ruby last year after extensive deliberation and went to YLS to try my hand at landing a unicorn job. I feel certain that I made the right decision for me. YLS is paying for part of my tuition and I don't have undergraduate debt, so the financial burden isn't unmanageable - but what I really didn't understand at the time was how unparalleled the access to resources/networks/ridiculous facetime with important people would be.

I feel pretty strongly at this point that if you aspire to work at a firm or something more run-of-the-mill, CCN with money is a fantastic choice. If you want to be a professor or do human rights or be that Supreme Court Clerk, Yale seems to be the better fit. Ruby is great if you want immediate financial security and are willing to take the gamble on your performance in school; HYS is great if you want longer-term job security/knowledge that you'll get a good job regardless of academic performance and you're willing to take a gamble on your finances shaking out.

Feel free to PM me for advice on the situation; happy to help anyone out if I can.


LJL


If you got more face time you'd know he was right.

Eta: prole.

Moneytrees
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby Moneytrees » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:19 pm

What jobs are the 35% of people that graduate from Yale without a Biglaw/clership going for?

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jbagelboy
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:54 pm

Moneytrees wrote:What jobs are the 35% of people that graduate from Yale without a Biglaw/clership going for?


1-2 year public interest fellowships are pretty common, then returning to firms or doing a clerkship and going to firm, gov't or an academic fellowship

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: "I really should have taken that Ruby over HYS sticker"

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:36 pm

I think the answer to question depends on who you ask -

Current law student? "No regrets for taking HYS sticker"

Practicing attorney/biglawyer? "I was a moron"

Remember guys - the entire point of getting a JD (unless you're a trust fund kid, and there are plenty of those in law school) is to get a job to make money. So money >>>>>>>>>>>>>> trumps all.

If I could sell back my magna cum laude T-14 JD for 1 million dollars and quit law forever, I would. Maybe for 500k. Degrees from X school or whatever don't mean crap in the real world - money does. If you take on 200k debt for a JD you won't even break even for at least 3 years (if you're very conservative with your finances), more likely 5 years minimum. And by that point you'll probably want to quit law anyway.




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