Scholarship

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Scholarship

Postby Ron Don Volante » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:06 pm

missybug wrote:I guess..but my job prospects are just as bleak without

Not being able to find a good job is not a good reason to go to a law school where most people are not able to find any job.

During law school, you're not building any skills or honing any abilities that are easily transferable to another profession. You're just three years older, and you're pigeonholed to an area that is not open to you. Anyone here would tell you that it's much better to be an unemployed BA than an unemployed JD.

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Rigo
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Re: Scholarship

Postby Rigo » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:40 pm

I say just apply to schools in the areas you can live and see what happens. It's hard to predict splitter financial aid.

A full ride will probably be hard to swing with that GPA, but maybe you can get close enough.

missybug
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Re: Scholarship

Postby missybug » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:14 am

Dirigo wrote:I say just apply to schools in the areas you can live and see what happens. It's hard to predict splitter financial aid.

A full ride will probably be hard to swing with that GPA, but maybe you can get close enough.


Ok thanks!

mike0331
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Re: Scholarship

Postby mike0331 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:01 am

Classic TLS... advice should be taken with a grain of salt. If you go to a school like Suffolk you'll have to bust your ass... but you can get a job. Both people I know from the last graduating class are employed in JD required jobs... both busted there ass as well. Suffolk is under represented but the whole "fuck law if its your dream and thats all you can get" stuff isnt the full story. Just be aware you'll need to work stupid hard and youll be at a disadvantage compared to grads of other schools.

It would obviously be preferable to go to a better school, and probably be a more enjoyable and less stressful an experience and a lot easier to find a job, but its hardly a lost cause, especially if you will be graduating debt free and you are certain its what you want to do.

Mike

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chuckbass
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Re: Scholarship

Postby chuckbass » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:19 am

mike0331 wrote:Classic TLS... advice should be taken with a grain of salt. If you go to a school like Suffolk you'll have to bust your ass... but you can get a job. Both people I know from the last graduating class are employed in JD required jobs... both busted there ass as well. Suffolk is under represented but the whole "fuck law if its your dream and thats all you can get" stuff isnt the full story. Just be aware you'll need to work stupid hard and youll be at a disadvantage compared to grads of other schools.

It would obviously be preferable to go to a better school, and probably be a more enjoyable and less stressful an experience and a lot easier to find a job, but its hardly a lost cause, especially if you will be graduating debt free and you are certain its what you want to do.

Mike

You're so wise....

Also OP, if you can get the job offer guaranteed then I don't think typical TLS wisdom applies to you. Just understand the risks associated with going to these kinds of schools if that job fell through.

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pancakes3
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Re: Scholarship

Postby pancakes3 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:36 am

I don't think your job offer is as firm as you're making it out to be. It's one thing to go to school part time while you stay at your old place and make a (more or less) seemless transition vs. taking 3 years off and then expecting them to hire you on the spot with open arms, no questions asked unless it's one of your family members running the place.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Scholarship

Postby Ron Don Volante » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:31 am

mike0331 wrote:Classic TLS... advice should be taken with a grain of salt. If you go to a school like Suffolk you'll have to bust your ass... but you can get a job. Both people I know from the last graduating class are employed in JD required jobs... both busted there ass as well. Suffolk is under represented but the whole "fuck law if its your dream and thats all you can get" stuff isnt the full story. Just be aware you'll need to work stupid hard and youll be at a disadvantage compared to grads of other schools.

So, 1) what did the mess of above-median grads who are unemployed and have essentially no hope of becoming lawyers do wrong, relative to middle of class at almost any other school in the country? 2) You say "work hard/bust ass" a lot, are you insinuating that grades are the reason people get hired at a place like Suffolk? 3) The standard advice we give to 0Ls is to expect median grades, because 1L grading is notoriously and extremely unpredictable. Are you saying that for a place like Suffolk, any random person on the internet, so long as they "bust ass," is going to be in the 30% whose life doesn't completely go in the shitter?

OP, again, this is not good advice. Suffolk is literally one of the worst schools in the country -- just because this dude knows two people who got a job does not mean that it is not the case that there are six people for every two of them who are in serious debt and are straight unemployable. Suffolk is fine if and only if you are paying no money for it and have a legitimate contract for employment upon bar passage. A school where almost 70% of all graduates never become attorneys is simply not worth three years of your life unless there is some bona fide guarantee at the end.

I can't believe there are people (who are not suffolk adcomms) arguing this point. OP is a fucking single mother. If there is ever a time to give tempered, safe advice, this is it.

missybug
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Re: Scholarship

Postby missybug » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:21 am

Not sure how Suffolk got in the discussion I was talking about northeastern

missybug
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Re: Scholarship

Postby missybug » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:22 am

But thanks for the advice guys I appreciate it

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chuckbass
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Re: Scholarship

Postby chuckbass » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:23 am

They're equally bad options fwiw

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Scholarship

Postby Ron Don Volante » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:26 am

missybug wrote:Not sure how Suffolk got in the discussion I was talking about northeastern

Unfortunately, Northeastern is essentially as bad. The number of people who want to go to law school in the area compared to the number of actual jobs is extraordinarily out of whack.
missybug wrote:But thanks for the advice guys I appreciate it

Of course: We want this to work out for you and are here to help.

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ballcaps
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Re: Scholarship

Postby ballcaps » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:32 am

mike0331 wrote:Classic TLS... advice should be taken with a grain of salt. If you go to a school like Suffolk you'll have to bust your ass... but you can get a job. Both people I know from the last graduating class are employed in JD required jobs... both busted there ass as well. Suffolk is under represented but the whole "fuck law if its your dream and thats all you can get" stuff isnt the full story. Just be aware you'll need to work stupid hard and youll be at a disadvantage compared to grads of other schools.

It would obviously be preferable to go to a better school, and probably be a more enjoyable and less stressful an experience and a lot easier to find a job, but its hardly a lost cause, especially if you will be graduating debt free and you are certain its what you want to do.

Mike


lol this is just...terrible.

OP, listen to RDV

missybug
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Re: Scholarship

Postby missybug » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:50 am

Just saw that I got in at Pepperdine and asu..are those at all better?

Ron Don Volante wrote:
missybug wrote:Not sure how Suffolk got in the discussion I was talking about northeastern

Unfortunately, Northeastern is essentially as bad. The number of people who want to go to law school in the area compared to the number of actual jobs is extraordinarily out of whack.
missybug wrote:But thanks for the advice guys I appreciate it

Of course: We want this to work out for you and are here to help.

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PhilippeStandingOnIt
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Re: Scholarship

Postby PhilippeStandingOnIt » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:10 pm

PM sent.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Scholarship

Postby Ron Don Volante » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:11 pm

missybug wrote:Just saw that I got in at Pepperdine and asu..are those at all better?

ASU is fine for someone with a full ride who wants to practice in Arizona. Pepperdine is barely ever defensible even with a full ride, but if it would be defensible, it would only be so for someone who wanted to practice in Southern California.

For someone with a 2.5, finding a law school option that is advisable is extremely difficult. Even with living expenses covered and a great LSAT, it's not easy.

Honestly, your life would be a lot easier and your financial outlook would be much brighter if you found another career path.

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Rigo
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Re: Scholarship

Postby Rigo » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:14 pm

missybug wrote:Just saw that I got in at Pepperdine and asu..are those at all better?

Depends on the COA.

missybug
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Re: Scholarship

Postby missybug » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:20 pm

I'm not going to change my career path-- I had a rough 4 years of undergrad but I refuse to let that screw me. I appreciate the honesty though, at least I won't go into this with unrealistic expectations

Ron Don Volante wrote:
missybug wrote:Just saw that I got in at Pepperdine and asu..are those at all better?

ASU is fine for someone with a full ride who wants to practice in Arizona. Pepperdine is barely ever defensible even with a full ride, but if it would be defensible, it would only be so for someone who wanted to practice in Southern California.

For someone with a 2.5, finding a law school option that is advisable is extremely difficult. Even with living expenses covered and a great LSAT, it's not easy.

Honestly, your life would be a lot easier and your financial outlook would be much brighter if you found another career path.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Scholarship

Postby Ron Don Volante » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:27 pm

Well we wish you the best of luck, just please try to keep your debt load down and go somewhere that gives you a realistic shot at a job.

mike0331
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Re: Scholarship

Postby mike0331 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:07 pm

I know lawyers involved in hiring other lawyers, without going into detail. They agree that certain schools put you at a disadvantage, but plenty of Suffolk/NEU grads have jobs. Not most of them.

As I stated, you'll have to bust your ass and distinguish yourself. The idea that nobody gets employment out of these schools is absurd. The numbers are low, and at sticker it would be foolish to go, but if you can go for free and you excel you're not by any means fucked.

There are people on this board that have the attitude that if you do not go to a T14, it's not worth it.

Mike

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hoos89
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Re: Scholarship

Postby hoos89 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:14 pm

mike0331 wrote:I know lawyers involved in hiring other lawyers, without going into detail. They agree that certain schools put you at a disadvantage, but plenty of Suffolk/NEU grads have jobs. Not most of them.

As I stated, you'll have to bust your ass and distinguish yourself. The idea that nobody gets employment out of these schools is absurd. The numbers are low, and at sticker it would be foolish to go, but if you can go for free and you excel you're not by any means fucked.

There are people on this board that have the attitude that if you do not go to a T14, it's not worth it.

Mike


Where has anyone said that nobody gets a job from these schools? Obviously some people will get jobs, but the fact that you downplayed the fact that MOST of them do not get jobs is just plain absurd. Why would you want to put yourself at that big of a disadvantage? I assure that there is more to that statistic than merely "well I guess most of their students didn't bust enough ass." I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that there are a number of graduates from those schools who busted tons of ass and didn't get a job as a lawyer.

Also, it's a HUGE straw man to compare "don't go to Suffolk/Northeastern" to "don't go unless it's a T14."

Hoos

mike0331
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Re: Scholarship

Postby mike0331 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:23 pm

To say its not even worth it to go to X school for free if its not your dream because 2/3 or in the case of NEU closer to 1/2 of the class aren't employed immediately in a job requiring a JD is ridiculous. I'd be curious to see the employment numbers of the people who went with full or almost full rides to various schools, or presumably those who chose those schools for financial reasons rather than because its "all they could get." I'm confident it would be much higher.

But yes, she should look at the employment numbers. It didn't sound like she was walking into this blind.

And the attitude on this site seems to be largely all around pessimistic or negative.

Mike

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Scholarship

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:36 pm

mike0331 wrote:
And the attitude on this site seems to be largely all around pessimistic or negative.

Mike


I'd say it's reality based. Betting three years of your life and a bunch of money on a place like Suffolk is, statistically, a very bad bet. Going into that thinking "I'll just work hard!" isn't being optimistic. It's self delusion.

Besides, no one is saying that no one gets jobs out of Suffolk or Northeastern. Of course there'll be a minority who make it work. But when you're gaming out the future, it's not wise to bank everything on being one of the lucky few, especially since most 0Ls can dramatically increase their odds of success with a few more LSAT points.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Scholarship

Postby Ron Don Volante » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:48 pm

mike0331 wrote:I know lawyers involved in hiring other lawyers, without going into detail. They agree that certain schools put you at a disadvantage, but plenty of Suffolk/NEU grads have jobs. Not most of them.

As I stated, you'll have to bust your ass and distinguish yourself. The idea that nobody gets employment out of these schools is absurd. The numbers are low, and at sticker it would be foolish to go, but if you can go for free and you excel you're not by any means fucked.

There are people on this board that have the attitude that if you do not go to a T14, it's not worth it.

Mike

God you are an idiot. Oh, you know lawyers involved in hiring other lawyers, 0L? Please, tell the forum of attorneys and law students at top firms and schools how this works.

Nobody is saying people are not employed from these schools. The vast majority are not employed as lawyers, however, and that is indisputable. Hard work does not equal grades, and even if it did, at a school like this, grades do not equal a job. No 0L knows whether they are going to excel or not, either.

Please point out these people who say there are only 14 schools worth going to. I don't go to a T14, but going to a school like Suffolk or NEU is just a fucking atrocious investment. Even if it's free.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Scholarship

Postby Ron Don Volante » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:55 pm

mike0331 wrote:And the attitude on this site seems to be largely all around pessimistic or negative.

Mike

For many people, law is a solid path and a reasonable investment. But for the majority of directionless BAs, it is a terrible choice. Case in point: only 54% of all graduates last year were able to find employment as an attorney ten months after graduation, and the average graduate had > 100K in debt. The people who have good numbers and have seriously researched the profession/law school don't really need to post. The 0L forums are negative and pessimistic, often, because they are flooded with kids who hold a gun to their head and just beg to hear somebody say they should pull the trigger.

mike0331
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Re: Scholarship

Postby mike0331 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:59 pm

Guilty, then I guess. Huge Idiot, right here.

It's more than a tiny minority who make it work, at least according to published numbers (since that's what you guys like so much)... but go ahead, anywhere that doesn't offer you some magic number employment cut-off isn't worth your time or money (in which case the OP is looking for a place that costs her minimally financially as far as payment goes).

ETA: I understand its an over-saturated profession, and maybe I am misunderstanding the ignorance of those posting on this forum. I suppose I just assumed that those who were smart enough to find a law school forum and ask questions had a pretty solid idea of what they wanted to do, I know I did. I think any 3 year investment in a post grad education, even to YLS, without any idea of what you want to do is probably pretty dumb. It sounds like the OP is planning on minimizing debt and already has an idea as to what she wants to do. If not, then obviously stepping back and assessing the situation is the smart thing to do, no matter where she gets in and with what.

Mike




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