Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

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Ex Cearulo
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby Ex Cearulo » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:36 pm

Businesslady wrote:The militarized system of domestic order that results in mass incarceration

Are you referring to law school or pilot training? Because it works quite well for the latter. :mrgreen:

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mmelittlechicken
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby mmelittlechicken » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:40 pm

utahraptor wrote:Pretty much I want to lock you in a room with Eben Moglen for a couple of hours and, upon your exit, want you to discuss the legitimacy of LEGAL ACADEMIA.

(the irony being that I think Moglen might be one of the few people here who would agree with me)

How do I enroll?

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utahraptor
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby utahraptor » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:47 pm

mmelittlechicken wrote:
utahraptor wrote:Pretty much I want to lock you in a room with Eben Moglen for a couple of hours and, upon your exit, want you to discuss the legitimacy of LEGAL ACADEMIA.

(the irony being that I think Moglen might be one of the few people here who would agree with me)

How do I enroll?


Just approach Moglen. 50/50 that you'll be trapped in a room with him for a couple of hours anyway.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:49 pm

Businesslady wrote:I'm not sure how generalizable the experience of getting nothing out of it but the satisfaction of winning at grinding is - but that seems like an unhealthy way to structure an education in the law. Would you have tried harder to dig into more fun things if you knew you didn't want a big firm job? If you didn't have to pay so much for the OCI ticket? What would you be doing with your time there, and the degree, if it were free or close to free?

I think it's pretty generalizable, and I liked law school and I even support research for its own sake and all that good stuff. But law schools is a three year process of competing for achievements, even at my mellow school. I'll go further than smaug and suggest that you can pick up some useful information/skills along the way, but as an educational system its highest achievement is grading people and gatekeeping. I don't think pretty much anyone would (or should) go if they didn't need the degree for the job they (think they) want. There aren't really any of the fun things you allude to above to dig into - if you want those, you're best served in a political science/econ/sociology PhD program.

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Businesslady
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby Businesslady » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:04 pm

utahraptor wrote:Pretty much I want to lock you in a room with Eben Moglen for a couple of hours and, upon your exit, want you to discuss the legitimacy of LEGAL ACADEMIA.

(the irony being that I think Moglen might be one of the few people here who would agree with me)

I would love that. I would also love it if when people who could go anywhere and do anything chose schools, they considered the opportunity to sit in a room with Eben Moglen for a couple of hours part of the value proposition.

Eben Moglen wrote:Three days after his death, on January 27, 1993, Thurgood Marshall came to the Supreme Court, up the marble steps, for the last time. Congress had ordered Abraham Lincoln's catafalque brought to the Court, and on it the casket of Thurgood Marshall lay in state. His beloved Chief, Earl Warren, had been so honored in the Great Hall of the Court, and no one else. Congress was right about the bier, and spoke with the voice of the people: no other American, of any age, so deserved to lie where Lincoln slept.

To him, all day on Wednesday, the people came--a score of thousands, we were told, in the blustery bright Washington winter. The President had said a week before that it was spring, but he was optimistic. I stood with perhaps two thousand of the people myself. They knew it was winter, but there was something that they had to do. With others who had been TM's law clerks, I kept vigil by the bier for a time. We stood by turns, in motionless respect as the people passed. TM's son John stood there all day, hour after hour with his trooper's straightness, full of gentle strength, his father's toughness in his face. So by turns we stood, on hard cold marble, and the people came to say goodbye. They too came up the steps and through the doors, above which the Court promises the world EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER LAW. Later the Chief Justice said, and rightly, that no other individual had done more to make those words reality.

But all the people made the words real on Wednesday, for they did equal justice to his memory, one and all, the fortunate and the unfortunate together. I stood silent waiting for them, and they were silent by and large saying what they had come to say. Schoolchildren came, lots of them, to promise with their teachers that the lessons he had struggled all his life to learn would be handed down to their grandchildren, three generations more. Others came with promises too. I remember most clearly a young man, of seventeen or so, who came with his mother. He walked to the casket, as close as the ropes would let him pass. He turned his palms upward, and he clenched his fists. He put his head down on his chest; his fists were clenched so hard I saw his arms tremble. He stood for some minutes, silent and trembling, in the most solemn place he knew, to make the most solemn promise of his life--whatever it was--to himself. TM would have been happy to see him there. Such youthful moments of passionate resolve can change the world, he knew. Thurgood Marshall had such a passionate determination, and he changed the world.

The world was changed more than he knew, and the people came to tell him about it. They brought him their staggering diversity, and they came before him one last time to say: "You see... This is what equality is; this is who we are. We are the people you strived for. We are the people you protected. We are the People of the United States of America, and we loved you."

I stood and watched them as they came, and tried to remember each face I saw. I tried to remember out of gratitude and love, for they knew who he was, and came to show him who they had become because of him. I stood by his side and realized that his long journey was over, and that there, in the Great Hall, he was at home. Here was Odysseus returned from all his wanderings, old and crafty, a teller of tales who had been strong enough to strike down the wicked and unjust in his own hall.

At ten o'clock that night, the last of the people passed, and TM left the Court forever. They lifted him from where Father Abraham had slumbered, and bore him out from the Great Hall, down the marble steps and into history, toward the lighted rotunda of the Capitol. Or so they told me; I wasn't there. I could not bear to see it. I thought of him instead photographed on those same steps--young, confident and strong, grinning with his invariable mixture of irony and joy--celebrating with his comrades in arms the impossible achievement of an entire nation's dream. I thought of him as he had been, and I could not stand and watch as Odysseus sailed away once more, leaving us all behind.


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http://www.law.uchicago.edu/files/files ... ormity.pdf

e:

Eben Moglen wrote:Essentially the same point has been put, in a more aphoristic style, as follows: "The bulk of mankind, on their part, are not excessively curious concerning any theories whilst they are really happy; and one sure symptom of an ill-conducted state is the propensity of the people to resort to them."{n41}

As Ackerman says, "the dualist and the Burkean can discover common ground." (p. 21) Perhaps, at the end of the day, the ground is not only common, but congruent. Ackerman calls the organicist strand of modern constitutional thought "Burkean, since it has yet to find its modern spokesman who is Burke's equal." (p. 17) Perhaps I am wrong in my belief, and Ackerman's future writing will show me wrong, but I believe that, malgr‚ lui, Ackerman has now begun the noble work of becoming that spokesman. I for one wish him well, and await with the greatest interest, along with a grain of suspicion, the fulfillment of the enterprise.

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JCougar
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby JCougar » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:05 pm

It would be nice to have a thread discussing this topic in depth, but without businesslady trying to troll.

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Businesslady
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby Businesslady » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:27 pm

You can run the show for a bit. Your posts are good. I'm just sus of "depth" on this site and I'm running interference. Be careful what you wish for.

e: But I'm staying pretty on-topic considering the substance and context of the papers in the OP.
e2: Actually, my recent posts are not that bad. Do you just want a thread about how law school should be one year or something?

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Businesslady
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby Businesslady » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:42 am

"Read more books" -Richard A. Posner

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http://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/ ... l_articles

I think a better idea than shutting down all the law schools is market socialism. Did I say I don't think law school should cost money? Probably, anyway. Or not very much. Whatever. I pretty much don't think law school should cost money. I don't think any school should cost money. I also don't think food should cost money. I think Desert Fox should have to pay people to write about law and unicorns in 16th century Japan and I think his bosses should have to pay him way more to post on this website and I don't think I should have to pay for whatever meat product he eats to be so cheap. I don't think I should have to pay for anything because my posts are so good. I think I should get to make posts on websites all day and all night. I think I should have nice things because of it.

In conclusion, it's wasteful for America to threaten everyone with starvation and homelessness to get them to do things they don't want to do for people they don't like. Somebody should fix that. I don't think I really disagree with anyone ITT and I think this is a bad website a lot of the time.

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MarkinKansasCity
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby MarkinKansasCity » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:12 am

Businesslady wrote:"Read more books" -Richard A. Posner

http://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/ ... l_articles

I think a better idea than shutting down all the law schools is market socialism. Did I say I don't think law school should cost money? Probably, anyway. Or not very much. Whatever. I pretty much don't think law school should cost money. I don't think any school should cost money. I also don't think food should cost money. I think Desert Fox should have to pay people to write about law and unicorns in 16th century Japan and I think his bosses should have to pay him way more to post on this website and I don't think I should have to pay for whatever meat product he eats to be so cheap. I don't think I should have to pay for anything because my posts are so good. I think I should get to make posts on websites all day and all night. I think I should have nice things because of it.

In conclusion, it's wasteful for America to threaten everyone with starvation and homelessness to get them to do things they don't want to do for people they don't like. Somebody should fix that. I don't think I really disagree with anyone ITT and I think this is a bad website a lot of the time.


Who exactly is going to pay for all this free shit? Do you really think DF is going to keep slaving away at a job that he hates so that you can have a free sammich? Take away the debt, and tax the shit out of high earners, and nobody will bother being a high earner. Jobs that pay shittons of money generally suck, which is why they pay so well.

Not to mention that there are only two choices for allocating resources:

1. Voluntary exchanges by individuals

2. Force

I prefer to make my own choices. Perhaps you feel differently.

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Businesslady
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby Businesslady » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:25 am

-Guy who cites to Reinhart-Rogoff and thinks Lochner was well-decided

This is pretty much a QED for needing to keep up with developments in economics.

e: Seriously, dude, did you read the articles? You get "rent-seeking," right? Can you get Tamanaha to post, btw?

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Businesslady
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby Businesslady » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:48 am

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JCougar
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby JCougar » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:06 pm

This is pretty funny, and a perfect example of how law school is a terrible waste of resources, time, and money:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/lg ... 74258.html

I am a new Law School graduate and I was looking for an EXPERIENCED attorney or retired attorney or an Experienced paralegal who will teach me how to draft legal documents, motions, memorandums, contracts and various other legal documents. I need to know that before I start working in the field. If you would be so kind to dedicate your time just once a week for an hour or two to teaching and mentoring I will deeply appreciate that. Compensation will be anywhere from $55 to $100 an hour. Thank you!


This is a new law grad, likely $150K in debt or worse, begging to pay an attorney to teach him how to practice law.

Something's wrong here.

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Businesslady
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Re: Legal Education and the Reproduction of Hierarchy

Postby Businesslady » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:19 pm

Obviously your point is as to law schools, but in the spirit of the OP and discussing hierarchy and indenture:

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Training_contract

By 1843, pressure led to the reduction of the Articled Clerkship to a term of 3 years if you graduated from a degree at the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, Dublin, Durham or London – as you were of a higher calibre. The 1785 to 1867 Register of Articled Clerkships shows the vast majority of terms being 5 years, but they are occasionally higher at 6 or 7 years and some at 3 years. One example recorded was for a mere 10 months.

In 1785, 129 Articled Clerkships (in the busiest court, the Common Pleas) were registered which we can contrast against the 4,869 Training Contracts registered with the Solicitors’ Regulation Authority in 2011.

The Articled Clerkship continued to develop and began to generate additional complexities, exceptions and methods to ensure the quality of training involved was up to the high standards of a noble profession. In the Solicitors Act of 1860, it was established that if you worked as a de facto Articled Clerk for 10 years, you could enter the profession fully if you completed 3 years of a formal Clerkship. I believe this is the origin of the term known within the profession as ‘ten-year man’.

https://englishlegalhistory.wordpress.c ... -contract/

I'm sure I'm missing all kinds of stuff about how suing works and culture and civil service and everything else about education in America, but here are some cherry-picked clippings from a paper on distribution of wealth at the top, and the relative financialization of American assets:

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http://darp.lse.ac.uk/papersdb/Cowell_% ... _UK%29.pdf




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