JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

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JCougar
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:30 pm

bearsfan23 wrote:Why the hell would recent law graduates "exaggerate" their employment status to their law schools? If anything, it would be the opposite for people who are un/underemployed. That's a fucked up accusation, even for you, to make


Because they are embarrassed at their lack of a real job and/or want to make it look to other potential employers like they are more desirable? Makes perfect sense to me. I've seen plenty of people do it.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby bearsfan23 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:34 pm

JCougar wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:Why the hell would recent law graduates "exaggerate" their employment status to their law schools? If anything, it would be the opposite for people who are un/underemployed. That's a fucked up accusation, even for you, to make


Because they are embarrassed at their lack of a real job and/or want to make it look to other potential employers like they are more desirable? Makes perfect sense to me. I've seen plenty of people do it.


I mean, that makes sense as far as social media/linkedin and that goes. It doesn't make any sense why they would lie to their schools and Career Services about it.

If anything, I'd think un/underemployed would want their Career Services to know they are still looking for work.

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JCougar
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:36 pm

bearsfan23 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:Why the hell would recent law graduates "exaggerate" their employment status to their law schools? If anything, it would be the opposite for people who are un/underemployed. That's a fucked up accusation, even for you, to make


Because they are embarrassed at their lack of a real job and/or want to make it look to other potential employers like they are more desirable? Makes perfect sense to me. I've seen plenty of people do it.


I mean, that makes sense as far as social media/linkedin and that goes. It doesn't make any sense why they would lie to their schools and Career Services about it.

If anything, I'd think un/underemployed would want their Career Services to know they are still looking for work.


Some people are pretty ashamed even to admit to Career Services what a failure they are--and it's not like most law school CSOs are capable of much anyway. Law schools knowingly admit way more students they know they can place because they need that tuition money.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:35 pm

'Twas a colder than normal morning, and the damp grey mist and clouds completely covered the sun. But up on the 12th floor of abandoned office building #4253, the coders were all neatly aligned in their rows and columns, like a phalanx of billable hour soldiers, milking profit out of discovery. Nearly 100 of them were crammed into three small rooms in the northeast corner of the building, despite the rest of the floor being vacant and barren--except for the random, stray office chairs and boxes left behind by the previous tenant. You see, the coders were easier to supervise if they were all crammed into three small spaces, anyhow, so no need to make use of all the dozens of extra offices. Give a coder one of those, and he or she might be able to text his or her friends one too many times.

The foggy weather was a blessing in disguise, though. You see, this building's ancient HVAC equipment barely worked, and with the sun beating down on the office walls, the A/C couldn't properly cool a room that was normally designed for no more than 5 office workers when it was jammed with 35 bodies, 35 computers, and 35 monitors all aligned on card tables, like a scene out of the Matrix. Coder eyes, coder brain stems all lined up to generate high-margin hours from an overly-broad discovery request. But today the stuffy room was a tolerable temperature.

The project consisted of sorting through a metric ton of corporate shitpaper: whatever files a search program came up with on the hedge fund's computers that contained something akin to the word "buy." (not the real symbol, you morons, the real one is confidential!). You see, that was the stock ticker symbol that involved potential fraudulent and/or nefarious investments, but it was also a word that appeared in every report, summary, newsletter, and spam e-mail ever generated or received at this place. The job of the coders, of course, was to read each of the 3 million+ document images and tag the ones that were actually talking about the stock price. 99,999 times out of 100,000, the word "buy" would be used in the general sense, and the document was not responsive. But you really had to be vigilant, because if that 1 time came to you, and you missed it, you would almost certainly find yourself "rolled off the project" via e-mail after you walked out the door to go home for the day. But don't feel bad: although normally the coincidence that this stock ticker symbol was an extremely common word used in everyday banking language would be a nightmare, to the coders, this meant steady employment for months. Millions of clicks to be made! Hundreds of dollars to be spent on whatever molecule numbs the pain!

Very little of that money would ever go to repay loans, because coders had to pay for back rent, alimony, etc. The middle-aged coder in the back row laughed at his school debt. "I started out at $150K, and after 15 years, it's grown to $400K with interest!" It was actually more like a badge of honor in this world. The greater you were fucked by the system, the more respect everyone else had for you. I'm sure everyone here was glad to know that their non-existent future paid for lavish offices at law schools so that professors could write boatloads of "research" condemning banks for lack of transparency to investors, while earning their paychecks from a massive pyramid scheme that was flat-out lying to consumers.

The soft whisper of coding activity filled the room on that quiet morning. The blanket of fog seemed to mute the sound of the traffic outside, and all you could hear was the din of the "click....click....scrollllllll......click" on 35 computers. By the end of the day, you would be hearing the collective giggle of delusional laughter in the face of this cruel fate--the sharing of stories about law deans in the past that got arrested or sued for sexual misconduct of their co-workers and/or students, law partners that abused their employees physically and emotionally, etc. This really was a profession where a lot of mini-Caligulas and Napoleons rose to the top. But for now, it was all business.

On the empty side of the building you could aver your eyes and gaze out the window looking out the gateway to the West. You could see the mess of empty lots and vacant properties, with some isolated and scattered redevelopment puttering along. Nearby, a small team of lonely construction workers were rehabbing an early 1900s Louis Sullivan masterpiece that had been vacant for nearly two decades. They were re-laying the bricks, joking around outside, building something of beauty, not getting paid much, but getting paid more than most lawyers these days. Between where you stood and the horizon, you could almost see the high water mark of American Capitalism. That place where the middle-class wave of the 1950s and '60s finally broke and rolled back, leaving behind a whimper, running for cover overseas in tax shelters, secret bank accounts, and offshoring. Whatever boom times were left were short and of limited duration--fueled by debt-created bubbles that were bound to burst sooner or later, and leave even more destruction in their wake. This was the essence and sound of the future of the American economy: "click....click....scrollllll....click."

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby prezidentv8 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:06 pm

JCougar wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:Why the hell would recent law graduates "exaggerate" their employment status to their law schools? If anything, it would be the opposite for people who are un/underemployed. That's a fucked up accusation, even for you, to make


Because they are embarrassed at their lack of a real job and/or want to make it look to other potential employers like they are more desirable? Makes perfect sense to me. I've seen plenty of people do it.


I mean, that makes sense as far as social media/linkedin and that goes. It doesn't make any sense why they would lie to their schools and Career Services about it.

If anything, I'd think un/underemployed would want their Career Services to know they are still looking for work.


Some people are pretty ashamed even to admit to Career Services what a failure they are--and it's not like most law school CSOs are capable of much anyway. Law schools knowingly admit way more students they know they can place because they need that tuition money.


Also, the unemployeds / underemployeds tend to not respond.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:35 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:This is the kind of post that makes people call you hyperbolic.


Also, I do not think it is hyperbolic. It wasn't more than 5 years ago when like 150 schools were reporting "mean" starting salaries in the six-figure range--even though the schools knew that maybe only a handful of students made as much as that.

My own school quoted me two different figures--funnily enough. The admissions office had one "median" for the latest graduating class, and the rest of the school had a totally different figure for that same class. So at best, they weren't careful with calculating these figures. But I'm pretty sure they knew they were bad, because they had to deal with year after year of graduates begging them for employment opions--a lot of them probably above median.

I knew these stats were juiced, but I had absolutely no idea that it was to such a large extent. How options pretty much dropped off a sheer precipice once Biglaw was out of the picture.

Shortly after the "median starting salary" BS was disposed of, schools began to invent a new lie: having their own admissions offices "hire" their own graduates between February and March (conveniently 9 months after graduation) so that they could count their graduates as employed. Georgetown in particular got in trouble for this. Shortly after this mini-scam was exposed, they moved on to paying their own graduates to volunteer at places. At least they were getting real law experience here--but of course, they structured these "fellowships" in such a way as to specifically game both US News and Law School Transparency employment statistics.

As soon as you try and fix one distortion, law schools will move on to invent another one. And then of course there are the administrations that just outright lie about stuff like UIUC and Villanova. While the ABA has started to take steps to curb this behavior, it moves very slowly, and is always one step behind.

The point is, there is little reason to trust any number or figure they spit out--because they know as well as anyone that if people really knew the truth about employment outcomes, almost no one would attend.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:44 pm

It's the scamblog rhetoric of including every synonym for "number" and "lie" you can find. I'm not saying your point is wrong, I'm saying you don't need to use so many words for the same thing.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:58 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:It's the scamblog rhetoric of including every synonym for "number" and "lie" you can find. I'm not saying your point is wrong, I'm saying you don't need to use so many words for the same thing.


I wasn't actually trying to mimic scamblogs by doing that. I was trying to mimic language I've actually seen on a lot of discovery requests. "Turn over every document, chart, depiction, note, graph, binder, booklet, recording, sketch, list, etc..."

Some of those are so over the top, it gets to be funny. I guess that was partially my point.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:39 pm

Jesus Christ, JCougar writes a lot on here.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:29 pm

sparty99 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.


"yeah, so I make $195k a year."

- Said the Douche Bag with No Life.


If DF ACTUALLY made $195K a year then yes he'd be a douchebag as my more melanin challenged friends would say. But he's not. You have to look at what HE'S really making. Not what is being listed on his W-2 as gross income. After accounting for the huge fed taxes that hit someone making that kind of money strictly through wages, THE MANDATORY STUDENT LOAN PAYMENTS that are basically the same thing as a tax, state taxes, ss, Medicare, Medicaid, retirement, and benefit deductions he's probably taking home about $4K a month (I think he confirmed this). Again $4K a month is good money. But then again DF is in NYC. So $4K a month is really more like "decent" money. But again we still haven't hit the crux of the problem.

The main issue is that he had to go through hell and high water to get that $4K a month in NYC whereas that's basically the same as what many mid level low debt professionals make after a few years of experience. Except they aren't working like a slave in industries where they are almost guaranteed not to make it beyond a few years. They also aren't working with insanely anal, competitive, rude, condescending jerks everyday. That's A LOT of negatives to deal with just to be in the same position as the aforementioned group of people but with less job security.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby r1tlv50 » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:08 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
r1tlv50 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Sometimes, but not invariably. I think the paths to non/post-biglaw careers are less set or clear cut than people here assume. Someone who graduates Seattle U and goes to a small PI shop isn't likely to end up as a biglaw partner, no. But most biglaw associates don't make biglaw partner, either. The Seattle U person could end up in the same place as a lot of former biglaw associates, just without doing the biglaw part to start.

I'll concede this probably doesn't hold true for the tip top most unicorn jobs. But frankly most T14 grads don't end up in those, either.


I don't know. I still see having school-specific, mid-career employment data as being one of the most useful things we could have to evaluate where (or if) someone should get a JD, at least as long as entry-level employment outcomes remain heavily correlated with law school prestige. I can't really argue with the fact that some people from less prestigious schools can and do get good jobs (or that people from better or worse schools can wind up in the same place), but that doesn't really seem like all that strong of a point to make when the employment data we have now confirms that graduates from better schools are much more likely to make enough to pay their loans off and have a position that requires a JD when they're 9 months out. To see whether that correlation holds up later, we would need better mid-career data. Otherwise, we're left with anecdotes/speculation, and to me that doesn't justify the cost of most schools.

I agree that the data would be great to have - I think as people get further out it's going to be harder to draw a direct correlation between school prestige and success, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at the data. I'm also not saying that the lack-of-straight-path justifies the cost of schools with lesser employment outcomes - I would still recommend people go to the school with the best employment outcome/debt ratio they can find. I just find that the more people I meet in practice, the wider the range of outcomes is, so I don't want people who do end up somewhere other than the T14 to feel they're doomed to a certain career path (or conversely, for people in the T14 to think the same thing).

But I'm also not in biglaw, nor am I in NYC/LA/Chicago/DC, so may have a broader definition of success than some people.


Of course, the even better solution for all of this would be if the lawyer oversupply were corrected outright so that people who spend so much time and money entering the profession can be assured of a decent income (a la med school). In that case, knowing average salary (without tying it to specific law schools) would be enough.

But yeah, that's not coming in the near future.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby sparty99 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:46 am

BruceWayne wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.


"yeah, so I make $195k a year."

- Said the Douche Bag with No Life.


If DF ACTUALLY made $195K a year then yes he'd be a douchebag as my more melanin challenged friends would say. But he's not. You have to look at what HE'S really making. Not what is being listed on his W-2 as gross income. After accounting for the huge fed taxes that hit someone making that kind of money strictly through wages, THE MANDATORY STUDENT LOAN PAYMENTS that are basically the same thing as a tax, state taxes, ss, Medicare, Medicaid, retirement, and benefit deductions he's probably taking home about $4K a month (I think he confirmed this). Again $4K a month is good money. But then again DF is in NYC. So $4K a month is really more like "decent" money. But again we still haven't hit the crux of the problem.

The main issue is that he had to go through hell and high water to get that $4K a month in NYC whereas that's basically the same as what many mid level low debt professionals make after a few years of experience. Except they aren't working like a slave in industries where they are almost guaranteed not to make it beyond a few years. They also aren't working with insanely anal, competitive, rude, condescending jerks everyday. That's A LOT of negatives to deal with just to be in the same position as the aforementioned group of people but with less job security.


$195k minus expenses is still 195k versus all the other attorney graduates who are making $40-60k (at best). $4k? Is that savings? A month? Cause that is a lot of money to save. Every month. Plus compounded interest. If you can save $4k a month you have nothing to complain about.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:52 am

Dude, it's not savings, it's take home, and this really isn't pertinent to the point of the thread.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:08 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Dude, it's not savings, it's take home, and this really isn't pertinent to the point of the thread.


sparty with the 140 troll game.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby JCougar » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:08 pm

I don't speak for DF, but I'm pretty sure his point is that given that all that money goes to pay back enormous loan debt, the "upside" of Biglaw just isn't all that sexy. It's boring work and you barely get to keep the money you earn, and job security is minimal at best.

And then you have to weigh the downside of ending up in a doc review gulag doing a job that is so mindless and boring that any average high-schooler could do it and making so little money that you'll never even be able to make an interest-only payment on your school loans. If you're "lucky," the best you can do after putting doc review on your resume is maybe lateraling to insurance defense, or a slip n' fall mill--in which case your hours are much worse and the pay barely better, and your day will consist of being screamed at and berated by adjusters and maniac bosses, etc.

Everybody knows that Biglaw pays you $195K after bonus in your second year. It's not necessary for him to point that out. That's why law students willingly hand happily fork over $200-300K to go to these schools. But it's a huge chore to pay all that off even if you succeed, and chances are you'll be up n' outed before or very soon after you're done paying off those loans.

That wasn't even a humblebrag.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby BiglawAssociate » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:26 pm

JCougar wrote:I don't speak for DF, but I'm pretty sure his point is that given that all that money goes to pay back enormous loan debt, the "upside" of Biglaw just isn't all that sexy. It's boring work and you barely get to keep the money you earn, and job security is minimal at best.

And then you have to weigh the downside of ending up in a doc review gulag doing a job that is so mindless and boring that any average high-schooler could do it and making so little money that you'll never even be able to make an interest-only payment on your school loans. If you're "lucky," the best you can do after putting doc review on your resume is maybe lateraling to insurance defense, or a slip n' fall mill--in which case your hours are much worse and the pay barely better, and your day will consist of being screamed at and berated by adjusters and maniac bosses, etc.

Everybody knows that Biglaw pays you $195K after bonus in your second year. It's not necessary for him to point that out. That's why law students willingly hand happily fork over $200-300K to go to these schools. But it's a huge chore to pay all that off even if you succeed, and chances are you'll be up n' outed before or very soon after you're done paying off those loans.

That wasn't even a humblebrag.


Not to mention you will likely burn out by 5th year, at which point you will decide to quit the practice of law if you haven't been pushed out already. And at that point, your options are 200k in house to do more boring work for similar hours, or 60k public interest to work 50 hours a week (getting paid less per hour than teachers and nurses). All to live in a big city that charges you 3k a month in rent for a crappy little one bedroom apartment.

I just don't get why so many people are still paying ridiculous money to go to law school - I mean, seriously?

I consider myself lucky too because although I had tons of loans when I got out, I commuted to work and saved a lot of money to pay them off a lot faster than most people, married rich, and had some financial support from rich family. Some of my biglaw coworkers have parents who paid their entire law school and bought them new apartments for 3 million dollars.....if you don't have this kind of support, WTF are you doing paying 200k+ in loans to do biglaw in a high cost of living place.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby Oskosh » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:56 am

Can someone elaborate on how you are "pushed out" of Big Law?

I thought job number deception was more prevalent (doesn't mean it can't be occurring at a relatively lower rate elsewhere) in those Spam Law schools?

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby starry eyed » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:56 am

Oskosh wrote:Can someone elaborate on how you are "pushed out" of Big Law?

I thought job number deception was more prevalent (doesn't mean it can't be occurring at a relatively lower rate elsewhere) in those Spam Law schools?


Basically, you will know if you are on the partner track or not by a few years in, and if not, it would be prudent to exit before you eventually get fired. How will you knwo if you're on a partner track? Having a book of business to justify a cut of the profits, being unusually proficient in a niche area, etc.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:01 am

Only a small percentage of associates at a given firm will make partner, generally. There's also the phenomenon of people leaving within 5 years or so because they hate it so much.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:48 pm

lol u guys are cute.

It happens in some other ways. If you are a "rockstar" who just doesn't have the business sense to get a book of business they'll string you along with hints of partnership until they tell you it aint happening. But that's after like 8-12 years.

Most get pushed out like: Either you get a bad review suddenly and then your hours fall because nobody gives you work OR your hours fall because nobody is giving you work and then you get a bad review. Then you get sent a random meeting with a partner you don't work with who tells you that you have 2-6 months before you are fired, so that you can find other work.

Once you get the bad review, lateral ASAP. Ur a deadman walking.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby Moneytrees » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:17 pm

It's common for an associate to work in Biglaw for what, maybe 4 or 5 years? That's a long time to be working in a stressful and arduous environment, no doubt. But wouldn't it be possible to pay off most of your loans by that point (or at least a sizeable chunk of them)? This seems particularly true if you didn't pay sticker, of course.

At the 4 or 5 year mark, with your debt being slashed, you would probably have some pretty decent options to lateral to. Presumably, you could be debt free (or close to it) and land a solid, less stressful position in your early 30's. That's not ideal, and is certainly not a quick way to get rich, but it doesn't seem like a travesty.

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starry eyed
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby starry eyed » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:28 pm

Regardless, having a book of business is the deciding factor of whether you are disposable anywhere (besides in-house). Why not, immediately after law school, use 50k on an ad campaign targeting your desired clients (car wreck billboards in the ghetto, cheesy tv commercials if you're car injury). Word of mouth from your initial clients should sustain you for a while. If you can go to a TTT with no debt and work, it can be done. It's kind of amazing how most prospective law students (even HYS) have zero business sense or even understand law firm economics.
Last edited by starry eyed on Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby JohannDeMann » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:31 pm

starry eyed wrote:Regardless, having a book of business is the deciding factor of whether you are disposable anywhere (besides in-house). Why not, immediately after law school, use 50k on an ad campaign targeting your desired clients (car wreck billboards in the ghetto, cheesy tv commercials if you're car injury). Word of mouth from your initial clients should sustain you for a while. If you can go to a TTT with no debt and work, it can be done. It's kind of amazing how most prospective law students have zero business sense or even understand the law firm economic model.


this isn't how law works at all.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby Skool » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:33 pm

starry eyed wrote:Regardless, having a book of business is the deciding factor of whether you are disposable anywhere (besides in-house). Why not, immediately after law school, use 50k on an ad campaign targeting your desired clients (car wreck billboards in the ghetto, cheesy tv commercials if you're car injury). Word of mouth from your initial clients should sustain you for a while. If you can go to a TTT with no debt and work, it can be done.
A similar but slightly less ludicrous idea: can associates try and build relationships with public interest firms while they're still in private practice?

Like, find a small PI litigation shop looking for big law co-counsel and champion their project to the probono director. Nurture the litigation from inside their office. Maybe encourage the firm to make a donation to them or make a donation themselves. That seems like a way for folks who are about to be pushed out to network in a really effective way and build a safety net they can fall into when the (nearly) inevitable happens.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby starry eyed » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:34 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
starry eyed wrote:Regardless, having a book of business is the deciding factor of whether you are disposable anywhere (besides in-house). Why not, immediately after law school, use 50k on an ad campaign targeting your desired clients (car wreck billboards in the ghetto, cheesy tv commercials if you're car injury). Word of mouth from your initial clients should sustain you for a while. If you can go to a TTT with no debt and work, it can be done. It's kind of amazing how most prospective law students have zero business sense or even understand the law firm economic model.


this isn't how law works at all.


With regards to obtaining clients?




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