JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

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smaug
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby smaug » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:43 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Saddle Up wrote:I can see a few people missing this point, but how thousands totally miss it is inexplicable. In considering law school, you go in with a minimum UG GPA in the mid-high eights. Then a minimum LSAT in the mid-to-high one-sixties. If you cannot deliver those mediocre numbers for acceptance into a top 15-30 school, don’t apply. This strategy would eliminate a large percentage of employment fails you read about. How schools outside of tier-one manage to lure thousands of applicants is way beyond belief.

No.

This. Also, you have the LSAT/GPA stuff backwards.

Nobody should be applying with a 165. Especially if they have a 3.8 GPA.

That's really dumb.

Don't go to law school.

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Saddle Up
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby Saddle Up » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:47 pm

Opps. Should have wrote mid-high three range. (8 is kinda of pushing it..lol)

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ReasonableNprudent
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby ReasonableNprudent » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:38 pm

sparty99 wrote:Go check yourself. I have had a job since graduation....


Hmm. It seems like just yesterday you told me I had no idea how bad it was, that you've had only two interviews since September, and that you have friends on food stamps. While you didn't outright say you were unemployed it seems you implied it.

Congrats on being one of the success stories. I guess anyone can pull it off, huh? I mean, really, a 145, top 40, employed at graduation. Sounds like a Will Smith movie I saw once.

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JCougar
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:04 am

You see, folks, every number, figure, percentage, ratio, graph, chart, list, formula, sum, average, mean, median, mode, datum, matrix, anecdote, representation, estimate, guesstimate, table, total, correlation, quotient, product, quartile, decile, integer, digit, amount, quantity, unit, tally, fraction, numeral, dollar amount, rank or score--whether categorical, nominal, ordinal, or continuous--and whether it originated from, passed though, or ended up in the hands of a law school--has almost certainly been spun, distorted, obfuscated, misrepresented, twisted, exaggerated, changed, concealed, misstated, whitewashed, altered, perverted, tainted, doctored, slanted, faked, falsified and/or fabricated by the school that came into contact with it to make it look more tempting to prospective students.

You really shouldn't believe anything--not a single thing--that these places are telling you. Their CSOs and their admissions offices are under tremendous pressure to make the school look like an appealing place to the most talented students--otherwise their US News rank might go down and everyone will get fired. As a result, they are constantly looking for ways to distort any fact about that organization in the aforesaid manner.

This is why you shouldn't believe the NALP figure of 57% of JD graduates getting FTLT JD-required legal jobs--because those numbers are tallied up by the schools themselves. It is almost assuredly much worse than that, and every economist's estimate of the number of legal jobs created each year suggests that that number should be significantly lower.

You see, lawyers are trained to shamelessly slant stuff in their favor. But this only works if it's done before a seasoned, experienced judge, and where the other side has had a chance to present its counter-argument. Outside of the courtroom, this kind of slanting and obfuscation is called lying. When it's directed at unsophisticated consumers such as law school applicants, it's called fraud. But sometimes people in the legal industry don't know how to turn this trait that is only acceptable in the courtroom off.

It won't be a good time to go to law school until the JD class drops to around 25K in size.

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bearsfan23
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby bearsfan23 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:43 am

JCougar wrote:You see, folks, every number, figure, percentage, ratio, graph, chart, list, formula, sum, average, mean, median, mode, datum, matrix, anecdote, representation, estimate, guesstimate, table, total, correlation, quotient, product, quartile, decile, integer, digit, amount, quantity, unit, tally, fraction, numeral, dollar amount, rank or score--whether categorical, nominal, ordinal, or continuous--and whether it originated from, passed though, or ended up in the hands of a law school--has almost certainly been spun, distorted, obfuscated, misrepresented, twisted, exaggerated, changed, concealed, misstated, whitewashed, altered, perverted, tainted, doctored, slanted, faked, falsified and/or fabricated by the school that came into contact with it to make it look more tempting to prospective students.

You really shouldn't believe anything--not a single thing--that these places are telling you. Their CSOs and their admissions offices are under tremendous pressure to make the school look like an appealing place to the most talented students--otherwise their US News rank might go down and everyone will get fired. As a result, they are constantly looking for ways to distort any fact about that organization in the aforesaid manner.

This is why you shouldn't believe the NALP figure of 57% of JD graduates getting FTLT JD-required legal jobs--because those numbers are tallied up by the schools themselves. It is almost assuredly much worse than that, and every economist's estimate of the number of legal jobs created each year suggests that that number should be significantly lower.

You see, lawyers are trained to shamelessly slant stuff in their favor. But this only works if it's done before a seasoned, experienced judge, and where the other side has had a chance to present its counter-argument. Outside of the courtroom, this kind of slanting and obfuscation is called lying. When it's directed at unsophisticated consumers such as law school applicants, it's called fraud. But sometimes people in the legal industry don't know how to turn this trait that is only acceptable in the courtroom off.

It won't be a good time to go to law school until the JD class drops to around 25K in size.


Image

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smile0751
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby smile0751 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:04 am

bearsfan23 wrote:
JCougar wrote:You see, folks, every number, figure, percentage, ratio, graph, chart, list, formula, sum, average, mean, median, mode, datum, matrix, anecdote, representation, estimate, guesstimate, table, total, correlation, quotient, product, quartile, decile, integer, digit, amount, quantity, unit, tally, fraction, numeral, dollar amount, rank or score--whether categorical, nominal, ordinal, or continuous--and whether it originated from, passed though, or ended up in the hands of a law school--has almost certainly been spun, distorted, obfuscated, misrepresented, twisted, exaggerated, changed, concealed, misstated, whitewashed, altered, perverted, tainted, doctored, slanted, faked, falsified and/or fabricated by the school that came into contact with it to make it look more tempting to prospective students.

You really shouldn't believe anything--not a single thing--that these places are telling you. Their CSOs and their admissions offices are under tremendous pressure to make the school look like an appealing place to the most talented students--otherwise their US News rank might go down and everyone will get fired. As a result, they are constantly looking for ways to distort any fact about that organization in the aforesaid manner.

This is why you shouldn't believe the NALP figure of 57% of JD graduates getting FTLT JD-required legal jobs--because those numbers are tallied up by the schools themselves. It is almost assuredly much worse than that, and every economist's estimate of the number of legal jobs created each year suggests that that number should be significantly lower.

You see, lawyers are trained to shamelessly slant stuff in their favor. But this only works if it's done before a seasoned, experienced judge, and where the other side has had a chance to present its counter-argument. Outside of the courtroom, this kind of slanting and obfuscation is called lying. When it's directed at unsophisticated consumers such as law school applicants, it's called fraud. But sometimes people in the legal industry don't know how to turn this trait that is only acceptable in the courtroom off.

It won't be a good time to go to law school until the JD class drops to around 25K in size.


Image


Making that my new avatar.

Edit: As soon as I get home and figure out how to shrink it to TLS acceptable size.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:05 am

JCougar wrote:You see, folks, every number, figure, percentage, ratio, graph, chart, list, formula, sum, average, mean, median, mode, datum, matrix, anecdote, representation, estimate, guesstimate, table, total, correlation, quotient, product, quartile, decile, integer, digit, amount, quantity, unit, tally, fraction, numeral, dollar amount, rank or score--whether categorical, nominal, ordinal, or continuous--and whether it originated from, passed though, or ended up in the hands of a law school--has almost certainly been spun, distorted, obfuscated, misrepresented, twisted, exaggerated, changed, concealed, misstated, whitewashed, altered, perverted, tainted, doctored, slanted, faked, falsified and/or fabricated by the school that came into contact with it to make it look more tempting to prospective students.

You really shouldn't believe anything--not a single thing--that these places are telling you. Their CSOs and their admissions offices are under tremendous pressure to make the school look like an appealing place to the most talented students--otherwise their US News rank might go down and everyone will get fired. As a result, they are constantly looking for ways to distort any fact about that organization in the aforesaid manner.

This is why you shouldn't believe the NALP figure of 57% of JD graduates getting FTLT JD-required legal jobs--because those numbers are tallied up by the schools themselves. It is almost assuredly much worse than that, and every economist's estimate of the number of legal jobs created each year suggests that that number should be significantly lower.

You see, lawyers are trained to shamelessly slant stuff in their favor. But this only works if it's done before a seasoned, experienced judge, and where the other side has had a chance to present its counter-argument. Outside of the courtroom, this kind of slanting and obfuscation is called lying. When it's directed at unsophisticated consumers such as law school applicants, it's called fraud. But sometimes people in the legal industry don't know how to turn this trait that is only acceptable in the courtroom off.

It won't be a good time to go to law school until the JD class drops to around 25K in size.

This is the kind of post that makes people call you hyperbolic.

Moneytrees
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby Moneytrees » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:08 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
JCougar wrote:You see, folks, every number, figure, percentage, ratio, graph, chart, list, formula, sum, average, mean, median, mode, datum, matrix, anecdote, representation, estimate, guesstimate, table, total, correlation, quotient, product, quartile, decile, integer, digit, amount, quantity, unit, tally, fraction, numeral, dollar amount, rank or score--whether categorical, nominal, ordinal, or continuous--and whether it originated from, passed though, or ended up in the hands of a law school--has almost certainly been spun, distorted, obfuscated, misrepresented, twisted, exaggerated, changed, concealed, misstated, whitewashed, altered, perverted, tainted, doctored, slanted, faked, falsified and/or fabricated by the school that came into contact with it to make it look more tempting to prospective students.

You really shouldn't believe anything--not a single thing--that these places are telling you. Their CSOs and their admissions offices are under tremendous pressure to make the school look like an appealing place to the most talented students--otherwise their US News rank might go down and everyone will get fired. As a result, they are constantly looking for ways to distort any fact about that organization in the aforesaid manner.

This is why you shouldn't believe the NALP figure of 57% of JD graduates getting FTLT JD-required legal jobs--because those numbers are tallied up by the schools themselves. It is almost assuredly much worse than that, and every economist's estimate of the number of legal jobs created each year suggests that that number should be significantly lower.

You see, lawyers are trained to shamelessly slant stuff in their favor. But this only works if it's done before a seasoned, experienced judge, and where the other side has had a chance to present its counter-argument. Outside of the courtroom, this kind of slanting and obfuscation is called lying. When it's directed at unsophisticated consumers such as law school applicants, it's called fraud. But sometimes people in the legal industry don't know how to turn this trait that is only acceptable in the courtroom off.

It won't be a good time to go to law school until the JD class drops to around 25K in size.

This is the kind of post that makes people call you hyperbolic.


His posts are definitely hyperbolic, but he makes good points about the dangers of going into law. I don't think this sort of rhetoric is always helpful, but ultimately, the main argument he makes against the law school scam is pretty pretty valid.

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Desert Fox
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby Desert Fox » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:13 pm

The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.

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BruceWayne
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:24 pm

Desert Fox wrote:The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.


Honestly, when you factor in the student loan payments, taxes, and deductions for insurance and retirement etc. are you even making all that much money? $4K a month maybe? That's good money. But it's not really worth what you have to go through (3 years of school where you have to beat out very intense and very smart competition, the bar exam, and obviously the job itself) to get it.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby UVAIce » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:31 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.


Honestly, when you factor in the student loan payments, taxes, and deductions for insurance and retirement etc. are you even making all that much money? $4K a month maybe? That's good money. But it's not really worth what you have to go through (3 years of school where you have to beat out very intense and very smart competition, the bar exam, and obviously the job itself) to get it.


This. Mediocre computer scientists and engineers get fairly decent jobs with fairly low (if any) UG debt. Mediocre lawyers have six figures of debt, are thankful for a job, and are stuck not making a lot more money than the guy designing fire alarm circuits.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby r1tlv50 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:44 pm

UVAIce wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.


Honestly, when you factor in the student loan payments, taxes, and deductions for insurance and retirement etc. are you even making all that much money? $4K a month maybe? That's good money. But it's not really worth what you have to go through (3 years of school where you have to beat out very intense and very smart competition, the bar exam, and obviously the job itself) to get it.


This. Mediocre computer scientists and engineers get fairly decent jobs with fairly low (if any) UG debt. Mediocre lawyers have six figures of debt, are thankful for a job, and are stuck not making a lot more money than the guy designing fire alarm circuits.


If either of you have worked in both, do you find the day-to-day work in law any more interesting than technical fields?

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Desert Fox
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby Desert Fox » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:54 pm

r1tlv50 wrote:
UVAIce wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.


Honestly, when you factor in the student loan payments, taxes, and deductions for insurance and retirement etc. are you even making all that much money? $4K a month maybe? That's good money. But it's not really worth what you have to go through (3 years of school where you have to beat out very intense and very smart competition, the bar exam, and obviously the job itself) to get it.


This. Mediocre computer scientists and engineers get fairly decent jobs with fairly low (if any) UG debt. Mediocre lawyers have six figures of debt, are thankful for a job, and are stuck not making a lot more money than the guy designing fire alarm circuits.


If either of you have worked in both, do you find the day-to-day work in law any more interesting than technical fields?


No it's worse.

And I definitely don't actually make actually 195k a year. After tax and loans on a 5 year plan (and lol at actually making it 5 years in biglawl), 4k is about right. Software engineers in the bay area style all over me.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby sparty99 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:10 pm

Desert Fox wrote:The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.


"yeah, so I make $195k a year."

- Said the Douche Bag with No Life.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby bjsesq » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:14 pm

sparty99 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.


"yeah, so I make $195k a year."

- Said the Douche Bag with No Life.

I mean, the guy just straight up admitted that, so why are you being such a little bitch about it?


Oh wait, you're the guy that trashes people in the vale.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby sparty99 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:35 pm

bjsesq wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.


"yeah, so I make $195k a year."

- Said the Douche Bag with No Life.

I mean, the guy just straight up admitted that, so why are you being such a little bitch about it?


Oh wait, you're the guy that trashes people in the vale.


Oh. My bad. Cry me a river that some asshole is complaining that he makes $195,000 a year which is 4x the average salary of an American. Boo-hoo........Boo-hoo.......

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby bjsesq » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:37 pm

sparty99 wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.


"yeah, so I make $195k a year."

- Said the Douche Bag with No Life.

I mean, the guy just straight up admitted that, so why are you being such a little bitch about it?


Oh wait, you're the guy that trashes people in the vale.


Oh. My bad. Cry me a river that some asshole is complaining that he makes $195,000 a year which is 4x the average salary of an American. Boo-hoo........Boo-hoo.......

You didn't even read what he wrote and he was pretty self-deprecating about it, you fucking retard.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:39 pm

Stop it, sparty.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby sparty99 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:44 pm

Oh. My bad. Cry me a river that some asshole is complaining that he makes $195,000 a year which is 4x the average salary of an American. Boo-hoo........Boo-hoo.......[/quote]
You didn't even read what he wrote and he was pretty self-deprecating about it, you fucking retard.[/quote]

Oh-Booooooooooooo. My school just posted a job that pays $36,000 a year.

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bjsesq
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby bjsesq » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:47 pm

What is it with this kid and his hatred of nuance?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:48 pm

Sparty, I'm telling you to stop because you're derailing the thread and didn't get the point of what DF was saying. Continue the conversation and you'll be banned.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby Desert Fox » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:51 pm

sparty99 wrote:Oh. My bad. Cry me a river that some asshole is complaining that he makes $195,000 a year which is 4x the average salary of an American. Boo-hoo........Boo-hoo.......

You didn't even read what he wrote and he was pretty self-deprecating about it, you fucking retard.[/quote]

Oh-Booooooooooooo. My school just posted a job that pays $36,000 a year.[/quote]

1) The point is that the money isn't worth it and I don't really get to keep it. I'm almost definitely going to leave biglaw with a negative net worth.

2) lol at 36k. Thats about half of a fourth years bonus

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby Paul Campos » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:54 pm

I don't think what JCougar is saying about law school employment stats is hyperbolic. After all, he's not even talking about actual fraud -- just self-interested actors massaging unaudited numbers in their favor, to the extent any ambiguity in those numbers (and most law school graduating classes feature an enormous amount of ambiguity in the jobs their members are reported to have) allows them to do so. Indeed why would anyone who was supposedly trained to "think like a lawyer" take such numbers at face value?

And leaving aside the motives and behavior of law schools, what about those of recent law graduates, who for reasons that are too obvious to elaborate will often exaggerate their employment situation in response to surveys and on social media (the two main sources of graduate employment information used by law schools to assemble their NALP and ABA reports)?

The interaction between law schools and their graduates practically guarantees that there's going to be a lot of air in the employment stats of most schools.

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby bearsfan23 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:24 pm

Paul Campos wrote:I don't think what JCougar is saying about law school employment stats is hyperbolic. After all, he's not even talking about actual fraud -- just self-interested actors massaging unaudited numbers in their favor, to the extent any ambiguity in those numbers (and most law school graduating classes feature an enormous amount of ambiguity in the jobs their members are reported to have) allows them to do so. Indeed why would anyone who was supposedly trained to "think like a lawyer" take such numbers at face value?

And leaving aside the motives and behavior of law schools, what about those of recent law graduates, who for reasons that are too obvious to elaborate will often exaggerate their employment situation in response to surveys and on social media (the two main sources of graduate employment information used by law schools to assemble their NALP and ABA reports)?

The interaction between law schools and their graduates practically guarantees that there's going to be a lot of air in the employment stats of most schools.


Why the hell would recent law graduates "exaggerate" their employment status to their law schools? If anything, it would be the opposite for people who are un/underemployed. That's a fucked up accusation, even for you, to make

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Re: JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%)

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:27 pm

sparty99 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The real scam is that there is virtually no winning. Yea, so I make 195k a year. It fucking blows and I'd rather be making 50k making fire alarm circuit designs like I was in 2008. But I have entirely too much debt.


"yeah, so I make $195k a year."

- Said the Douche Bag with No Life.


Come on man, don't be ridiculous. That's not what DF said.




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