JD Unemployment Reaches New High (15%) Forum

[General_Tso]

At what point do you say "this legal profession ship has sailed, time to reevaluate"?

I am interested to hear what people's response to this is. I think it is a good question.

I admire the persistence and empathize with the disappointment, but after 3 years of no substantive experience, it makes little sense to keep throwing good money after bad. Cut your losses and come up with a Plan B.

My question was primarily directed at Couger

[PeanutsNJam]

Unfortunately, unlike you, I know many wonderful people who attended a wonderful school and are otherwise well credentialed who have struggled out of law school.

It's a sad thing, and it's a real thing.

Are you being honest about having a job?

I just ask because I took a peek at your post history. You have over 8000 posts even though you have been a member of this site for less than 1 year. In the first three pages of your post history, I noticed that you had been posting frequently in the following discussion topics:

"RE: Defend weirdest snack you regularly eat"
"Favorite Cereal"
"Favorite Font"
"Calling all Forever Alones"

I couldn't make the last one up if I tried really, really hard.

Anyway, I'm just saying you can talk about this as much or as little of this as you want. I'm just a nice guy who is here to listen.

This is a fight you cannot win. He definitely goes to a better school and has a better job. Not even white knighting here.

[A. Nony Mouse]

@ McDuff - Smaug has a job.

You also seem unfamiliar with the lounge. Calling All Forever Alones is an institution there.

@ smaug - you're right. I just don't think the problem is actually few exemplary/lots of adequate outcomes as much as the objectively bad outcomes no matter what your goals were.

Now I'm just curious. Do you mega-poster types like meet in the real world? Or do you send scanned images of diplomas and pay stubs?

I personally haven't met any TLSers, but I live on the edge of the universe. Quite a lot of TLSers who live in major metros have met each other. Some of them even go to the same schools.

[General_Tso]

Moon calves be gone from this thread

by moon calf I mean Randolph

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

@ McDuff - Smaug has a job.

You also seem unfamiliar with the lounge. Calling All Forever Alones is an institution there.

@ smaug - you're right. I just don't think the problem is actually few exemplary/lots of adequate outcomes as much as the objectively bad outcomes no matter what your goals were.

Also this doesn't explain all the snacky threads... and Favorite Font?

This needs to be dissected on an anonymous website? I'm not saying everyone who "chats" on forums is unemployed, obviously, but 25 posts a day? Even if this was all mindless typing the time expended on this, day in day out, is...?

Apparently not a red flag on TLS.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

@ McDuff - Smaug has a job.

You also seem unfamiliar with the lounge. Calling All Forever Alones is an institution there.

@ smaug - you're right. I just don't think the problem is actually few exemplary/lots of adequate outcomes as much as the objectively bad outcomes no matter what your goals were.

Also this doesn't explain all the snacky threads... and Favorite Font?

This needs to be dissected on an anonymous website? I'm not saying everyone who "chats" on forums is unemployed, obviously, but 25 posts a day? Even if this was all mindless typing the time expended on this, day in day out, is...?

Apparently not a red flag on TLS.

My friend, there is down time in every office job.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Unfortunately, unlike you, I know many wonderful people who attended a wonderful school and are otherwise well credentialed who have struggled out of law school.

It's a sad thing, and it's a real thing.

Are you being honest about having a job?

I just ask because I took a peek at your post history. You have over 8000 posts even though you have been a member of this site for less than 1 year. In the first three pages of your post history, I noticed that you had been posting frequently in the following discussion topics:

"RE: Defend weirdest snack you regularly eat"
"Favorite Cereal"
"Favorite Font"
"Calling all Forever Alones"

I couldn't make the last one up if I tried really, really hard.

Anyway, I'm just saying you can talk about this as much or as little of this as you want. I'm just a nice guy who is here to listen.

This is a fight you cannot win. He definitely goes to a better school and has a better job. Not even white knighting here.

I don't go to school anymore.

Also maybe we should redefine "better" with respect to law schools if there are so many desperate graduates from these schools. Desperate and entitled.

I'm guessing this site just attracts prestige seeking, insecure humans. Law school was a good return on investment for me and but maybe I didn't try to strike it big with the city folks?

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

@ McDuff - Smaug has a job.

You also seem unfamiliar with the lounge. Calling All Forever Alones is an institution there.

@ smaug - you're right. I just don't think the problem is actually few exemplary/lots of adequate outcomes as much as the objectively bad outcomes no matter what your goals were.

Also this doesn't explain all the snacky threads... and Favorite Font?

This needs to be dissected on an anonymous website? I'm not saying everyone who "chats" on forums is unemployed, obviously, but 25 posts a day? Even if this was all mindless typing the time expended on this, day in day out, is...?

Apparently not a red flag on TLS.

My friend, there is down time in every office job.

I agree but 25 posts every day! Discount weekends and the total goes up!

How many of the mega-posters are in private practice? The hours are shorter with government work, but there are also less down time. There is always something I could technically be doing to help some other person. It's actually quite maddening but that's a whole other story.

[bk1]

Seriously, what kind of loser has over 1.5k posts on a pre-law chat board?

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

@ McDuff - Smaug has a job.

You also seem unfamiliar with the lounge. Calling All Forever Alones is an institution there.

@ smaug - you're right. I just don't think the problem is actually few exemplary/lots of adequate outcomes as much as the objectively bad outcomes no matter what your goals were.

Now I'm just curious. Do you mega-poster types like meet in the real world? Or do you send scanned images of diplomas and pay stubs?

I personally haven't met any TLSers, but I live on the edge of the universe. Quite a lot of TLSers who live in major metros have met each other. Some of them even go to the same schools.

Sure, but how do you know so and so has a job? You just told me that you haven't met any TLSers...

You just trust that they do, right? I mean in the end that is what we are talking about?

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Seriously, what kind of loser has over 1.5k posts on a pre-law chat board?

Spread over five years. Since I graduated a few years back, I have probably posted 100 to 200 times. But hey there is nothing wrong with posting on this website!

[asdfdfdfadfas]

Unfortunately, unlike you, I know many wonderful people who attended a wonderful school and are otherwise well credentialed who have struggled out of law school.

It's a sad thing, and it's a real thing.

Are you being honest about having a job?

I just ask because I took a peek at your post history. You have over 8000 posts even though you have been a member of this site for less than 1 year. In the first three pages of your post history, I noticed that you had been posting frequently in the following discussion topics:

"RE: Defend weirdest snack you regularly eat"
"Favorite Cereal"
"Favorite Font"
"Calling all Forever Alones"

I couldn't make the last one up if I tried really, really hard.

Anyway, I'm just saying you can talk about this as much or as little of this as you want. I'm just a nice guy who is here to listen.

This is a fight you cannot win. He definitely goes to a better school and has a better job. Not even white knighting here.

I don't go to school anymore.

Also maybe we should redefine "better" with respect to law schools if there are so many desperate graduates from these schools. Desperate and entitled.

I'm guessing this site just attracts prestige seeking, insecure humans. Law school was a good return on investment for me and but maybe I didn't try to strike it big with the city folks?

I don't think desperate and entitled is correct here. I think that, in general, when you sign up to attend law school or any other school for that matter, you believe that you will have the opportunity to use the information and the skills you obtained during that time period at a job that is relevant to your background. I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation.

I have walked the fine line between being nearly homeless and finding a job before and until you experience that, and really feel it, you truly can't understand the pure anguish, stress, and frustration of it.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Unfortunately, unlike you, I know many wonderful people who attended a wonderful school and are otherwise well credentialed who have struggled out of law school.

It's a sad thing, and it's a real thing.

Are you being honest about having a job?

I just ask because I took a peek at your post history. You have over 8000 posts even though you have been a member of this site for less than 1 year. In the first three pages of your post history, I noticed that you had been posting frequently in the following discussion topics:

"RE: Defend weirdest snack you regularly eat"
"Favorite Cereal"
"Favorite Font"
"Calling all Forever Alones"

I couldn't make the last one up if I tried really, really hard.

Anyway, I'm just saying you can talk about this as much or as little of this as you want. I'm just a nice guy who is here to listen.

This is a fight you cannot win. He definitely goes to a better school and has a better job. Not even white knighting here.

I don't go to school anymore.

Also maybe we should redefine "better" with respect to law schools if there are so many desperate graduates from these schools. Desperate and entitled.

I'm guessing this site just attracts prestige seeking, insecure humans. Law school was a good return on investment for me and but maybe I didn't try to strike it big with the city folks?

I don't think desperate and entitled is correct here. I think that, in general, when you sign up to attend law school or any other school for that matter, you believe that you will have the opportunity to use the information and the skills you obtained during that time period at a job that is relevant to your background. I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation.

I have walked the fine line between being nearly homeless and finding a job before and until you experience that, and really feel it, you truly can't understand the pure anguish, stress, and frustration of it.

If it makes any sense, I'm sure that had I attended a top 10 law school and struggled to find a job, I would have been both desperate and entitled. I'm not trying to judge because I'm not some great human. I was suggesting that too many people go to these schools because they want to impress other people. Many graduate and become bitter with the work.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I'm heading out of the office for the day so I am also signing off here. Let me apologize. For those who recall my posting history you know this nowhere near the first time I have missed optimism and landed squarely on preachy. Not actually my intent, but I'll try to be better.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I personally haven't met any TLSers, but I live on the edge of the universe. Quite a lot of TLSers who live in major metros have met each other. Some of them even go to the same schools.

Sure, but how do you know so and so has a job? You just told me that you haven't met any TLSers...

You just trust that they do, right? I mean in the end that is what we are talking about?

Do you just not use the internet much? I have a bunch of friends I only know from online. smaug would be horrified to have me describe him as such (and I don't know specifically where he works) but people I know through this site go (went) to school with him and have met him in real life and know that he graduated and has a job, and yes, I trust them. It would be an awful lot of work to set up fake FB pages and LinkedIns and so on just to tell lies on TLS.

And do you really think it's that much work to post 25x in a day? Comments on breakfast cereal don't require that much thought and aren't exactly lengthy screeds.

Also not sure why going to a top 10 school matters. There are plenty of bottom tier schools that cost just as much or more.

[bk1]

I think that the legal profession in general attracts people who are less mentally resilient than the average individual. It's also a fairly universal American belief that more education leads to better job prospects. While it's true that some people do things that torpedo their careers, there are structural issues that have had significant impacts on many, if not most, law grads. Blaming law grads just smacks of the same bullshit bootstrap argument.

[DrRighteous]

And do you really think it's that much work to post 25x in a day? Comments on breakfast cereal don't require that much thought and aren't exactly lengthy screeds.

Excuse you! I spend at least an hour crafting every comment I make about food here.

[Alive97]

I get the general gist of JCougar's view but his posts have so many overstatement and made up statistics that it actually becomes amusing to read.

How many years of practice do you have under your belt?

I feel for your story and get what you are saying but I do think you exaggerate some points.

I think your chances of being depressed increase something like tenfold from start to finish

This profession is pretty clearly biglaw or bust

only option available to those who strike out at OCI at a "Top 20" school: document review

For every good legal job out there, there's about 500 desperate JD grads applying--most of which have 5 years + of experience and graduated from T14 schools

there's 1,000 people applying for every one good job in this industry

You'd be surprised at how often the topic of "suicide" comes up in the doc review dungeons

I understand it may not be physically possible to be optimistic in your predicament. But I think there's room for exceptions which your exaggerations do not allow for.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I think you can divide people on this site into two groups. People who believe it is a personal travesty that there are two attorneys for every one available legal job, and people who believe it would be a travesty on the public if there was only one attorney available for each legal job. There are many more of the former than the latter. Because of that, it's hard for members of the latter to post on this website, which further exacerbates the disparity. What's left spirals further and further down the rabbit hole, supported and cheered all the way down.

Nevertheless, certain truths do not change. Every endeavor on this planet is difficult. Probably for good reason. Not everyone who wants to be a plumber can fix a pipe, not everyone who can throw a baseball should play for the Yankees. What would the world look like if everyone deserved and was provided whatever they wished?

A functioning society requires competition. This means that society requires failure. Instead of allowing this realization to take the fear out of failure, some people reject this notion outright and assume that a true and correctly tuned society would eliminate failure altogether. That every person who either deliberately or clumsily made the decision to attend law school should have a job waiting for them on the other side. That it should be "1 to 1."

But deep down you know that most people who attend Cooley shouldn't be trusted to help a client negotiate through the legal process. Or candidates from a dozen other schools. And if you're really honest, all of you who attended highly ranked law schools can recall classmates who simply picked the wrong field. They do not have what it takes. So in a "1 to 1" world, the society is worse off. Because some people just have to fail.

Maybe I'm the jerk because I don't know how to say this without hurting feelings. Maybe in despite of the fact I'm a pretty good lawyer I'm not smart enough or articulate enough to convey this message. Or maybe I'll help one person achieve some clarity and get out of this field so that they can go off and be happy. I really don't know. I am just participating in a conversation with knowledge that I've got a difficult message for my audience.

I know it is TLS and it is unpopular to place any blame on students, probably because this site is populated by strivers in their 20s. The fear of failure is massive here. But as Churchill said, success is walking from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm. Some people on here need to walk away.

[A. Nony Mouse]

No profession is structured such that everyone who wants to get into it will succeed. But the question is whether the ratio of success to failure is appropriate. I don't buy everything JCougar says, but there are good arguments to be made that the ratio in law is out of whack. The choice isn't (and shouldn't be) between two attorneys for every legal job, and one attorney for every legal job - that's a gross oversimplification. And I think you're way overstating the difficulty of a lot of endeavors - I think learning how to be a plumber is way more realistic than wanting to play for the Yankees. You can't treat all careers the same way.

Also, if you think that it's necessary to weed out quite that many prospective lawyers, then schools should do that weeding before people enroll and spend 3 years of their life and $200k.

[Tiago Splitter]

But deep down you know that most people who attend Cooley shouldn't be trusted to help a client negotiate through the legal process. Or candidates from a dozen other schools. And if you're really honest, all of you who attended highly ranked law schools can recall classmates who simply picked the wrong field. They do not have what it takes. So in a "1 to 1" world, the society is worse off. Because some people just have to fail.

Maybe I'm the jerk because I don't know how to say this without hurting feelings. Maybe in despite of the fact I'm a pretty good lawyer I'm not smart enough or articulate enough to convey this message. Or maybe I'll help one person achieve some clarity and get out of this field so that they can go off and be happy. I really don't know. I am just participating in a conversation with knowledge that I've got a difficult message for my audience.

In despite of what you think of the rest of the site most would agree we don't need a massive cut in the number of people entering law school. We've gone from 52,000 to 37,000 and with a little more decline the balance will be pretty reasonable. But if most people going to Cooley should not be trusted to actually be lawyers, we probably shouldn't publicly fund those people to the tune of 200k+.

[Harry_Pluxen]

I think you can divide people on this site into two groups. People who believe it is a personal travesty that there are two attorneys for every one available legal job, and people who believe it would be a travesty on the public if there was only one attorney available for each legal job. There are many more of the former than the latter. Because of that, it's hard for members of the latter to post on this website, which further exacerbates the disparity. What's left spirals further and further down the rabbit hole, supported and cheered all the way down.

Nevertheless, certain truths do not change. Every endeavor on this planet is difficult. Probably for good reason. Not everyone who wants to be a plumber can fix a pipe, not everyone who can throw a baseball should play for the Yankees. What would the world look like if everyone deserved and was provided whatever they wished?

A functioning society requires competition. This means that society requires failure. Instead of allowing this realization to take the fear out of failure, some people reject this notion outright and assume that a true and correctly tuned society would eliminate failure altogether. That every person who either deliberately or clumsily made the decision to attend law school should have a job waiting for them on the other side. That it should be "1 to 1."

But deep down you know that most people who attend Cooley shouldn't be trusted to help a client negotiate through the legal process. Or candidates from a dozen other schools. And if you're really honest, all of you who attended highly ranked law schools can recall classmates who simply picked the wrong field. They do not have what it takes. So in a "1 to 1" world, the society is worse off. Because some people just have to fail.

Maybe I'm the jerk because I don't know how to say this without hurting feelings. Maybe in despite of the fact I'm a pretty good lawyer I'm not smart enough or articulate enough to convey this message. Or maybe I'll help one person achieve some clarity and get out of this field so that they can go off and be happy. I really don't know. I am just participating in a conversation with knowledge that I've got a difficult message for my audience.

I know it is TLS and it is unpopular to place any blame on students, probably because this site is populated by strivers in their 20s. The fear of failure is massive here. But as Churchill said, success is walking from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm. Some people on here need to walk away.

Motion to sticky.

Now back to binging on LA law. Please keep the discussion going, folks.

[smaug]

I think you can divide people on this site into two groups. People who believe it is a personal travesty that there are two attorneys for every one available legal job, and people who believe it would be a travesty on the public if there was only one attorney available for each legal job. There are many more of the former than the latter. Because of that, it's hard for members of the latter to post on this website, which further exacerbates the disparity. What's left spirals further and further down the rabbit hole, supported and cheered all the way down.

Nevertheless, certain truths do not change. Every endeavor on this planet is difficult. Probably for good reason. Not everyone who wants to be a plumber can fix a pipe, not everyone who can throw a baseball should play for the Yankees. What would the world look like if everyone deserved and was provided whatever they wished?

A functioning society requires competition. This means that society requires failure. Instead of allowing this realization to take the fear out of failure, some people reject this notion outright and assume that a true and correctly tuned society would eliminate failure altogether. That every person who either deliberately or clumsily made the decision to attend law school should have a job waiting for them on the other side. That it should be "1 to 1."

But deep down you know that most people who attend Cooley shouldn't be trusted to help a client negotiate through the legal process. Or candidates from a dozen other schools. And if you're really honest, all of you who attended highly ranked law schools can recall classmates who simply picked the wrong field. They do not have what it takes. So in a "1 to 1" world, the society is worse off. Because some people just have to fail.

Maybe I'm the jerk because I don't know how to say this without hurting feelings. Maybe in despite of the fact I'm a pretty good lawyer I'm not smart enough or articulate enough to convey this message. Or maybe I'll help one person achieve some clarity and get out of this field so that they can go off and be happy. I really don't know. I am just participating in a conversation with knowledge that I've got a difficult message for my audience.

I know it is TLS and it is unpopular to place any blame on students, probably because this site is populated by strivers in their 20s. The fear of failure is massive here. But as Churchill said, success is walking from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm. Some people on here need to walk away.

lol

[xael]

lol "does smaug even have a job" just lolol

[A. Nony Mouse]

And do you really think it's that much work to post 25x in a day? Comments on breakfast cereal don't require that much thought and aren't exactly lengthy screeds.

Excuse you! I spend at least an hour crafting every comment I make about food here.

Well, you know, I wasn't counting the time spent in prepping and taking the food photos. I know wrangling that many photographers isn't easy.