Tier 3... Really that bad?

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peger
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby peger » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:23 pm

twenty 8 wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:
twenty 8 wrote:I went the tier 3 route primarily because it was; in my home town; in a metro with a lot of firms; in a state with several major metro areas; and because I received a ride free. Keep in mind, your free ride also means your stats were good enough for some hefty T14 discounts. But even with the t14 tuition reduction I’d probably be paying $1,500 a month instead of “0.” $1,500 a month in walking around $ is much sweeter than writing debt checks!

Don't know where you are getting the idea that a full ride to a TTT would equal $$ at a T14. That's just wrong. Some TTTs will give people full rides for a 3.5/160. That doesn't get you accepted to a T14, let alone a hefty discount.

Let me simplify. Have strong stats (ala 3.9/+170) and you will receive several significant T14 discounts and free rides at lesser ranked schools. I went the no debt route (also no COL since I stayed in my home town). Ended up at a large firm as did several TTT grads I know. Now that the market has heated up again the idea of passing up a free ride in a large metro (in a big state) seems (financially) fool hearted


With the stats you mention you could also get a free ride at a significantly better school than a Tier 3 institution, though.

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pancakes3
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby pancakes3 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:29 pm

A 3.9 170+ makes you Yale-eligible. I'm not sure why anyone with those stats would settle for a TTT free ride.

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15 styx
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby 15 styx » Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:37 pm

I also chose my hometown LS (upper TT) because of COL. I could have gone to a highly placed Tier-1/Lower T14 but at a much higher cost or I could choose a nearby lower ranked TTT at a near full ride. At the time jobs were supposedly scare so I evaded the TTT risk. Today I probably would have taken the TTT zero cost option (avoid paying $1,350 a month for the next five years). Thing is my firm has a number of T14 associates paying on their six figure debt. Bottom line, I (with slightly higher than median grades) landed at the same firm they did.

cmac2210
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby cmac2210 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:10 pm

Thanks for all the replies. Are we to believe that in order for a law degree to be of any value, you need to be working within 9 months after grad? Wouldn't it also be foolish to go to any school unless the stat is 100%, I mean any % less than that offers the opportunity for unemployment.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby JohannDeMann » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:38 pm

cmac2210 wrote:Thanks for all the replies. Are we to believe that in order for a law degree to be of any value, you need to be working within 9 months after grad? Wouldn't it also be foolish to go to any school unless the stat is 100%, I mean any % less than that offers the opportunity for unemployment.


This stat can be deceptive too. It's all about how you want to read it. Obvi 9 month rate of emplyoment gives a good glimpse into the nature of things relative to other schools by establishing a universal benchmark. However, youd be foolish to judge a lifetime investment at the 9 month mark.

So it's easy to see when you compare outcomes that Northwestern beats John Marshall at the 9 month mark based on employment and salary and can thus gage Northwestern is a better school. But judging whether John Marshall is worth it according to those stats will lead to some pretty terrible valuation analysis. Since we graduated people who were unemployed or doing doc review at the 9 month mark have climbed the ladder to govt jobs, big firms, establishing the firms they opened to biglaw equivalent salaries, or just networked within small law and received significant pay bumps. Or they've progressed in JD advantage jobs much faster than anyone else because of their JD etc. At graduation median salary was def like 50k. 3-4 years out its at least 80k and probably 100. More importantly, everyone is getting in their groove and working in jobs they like.

The numbers are useful again to gage schools against each other, but I think the numbers are really deceptive when considering the overall value of a law degree.

cmac2210
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby cmac2210 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:15 am

JohannDeMann wrote:
cmac2210 wrote:Thanks for all the replies. Are we to believe that in order for a law degree to be of any value, you need to be working within 9 months after grad? Wouldn't it also be foolish to go to any school unless the stat is 100%, I mean any % less than that offers the opportunity for unemployment.


This stat can be deceptive too. It's all about how you want to read it. Obvi 9 month rate of emplyoment gives a good glimpse into the nature of things relative to other schools by establishing a universal benchmark. However, youd be foolish to judge a lifetime investment at the 9 month mark.

So it's easy to see when you compare outcomes that Northwestern beats John Marshall at the 9 month mark based on employment and salary and can thus gage Northwestern is a better school. But judging whether John Marshall is worth it according to those stats will lead to some pretty terrible valuation analysis. Since we graduated people who were unemployed or doing doc review at the 9 month mark have climbed the ladder to govt jobs, big firms, establishing the firms they opened to biglaw equivalent salaries, or just networked within small law and received significant pay bumps. Or they've progressed in JD advantage jobs much faster than anyone else because of their JD etc. At graduation median salary was def like 50k. 3-4 years out its at least 80k and probably 100. More importantly, everyone is getting in their groove and working in jobs they like.

The numbers are useful again to gage schools against each other, but I think the numbers are really deceptive when considering the overall value of a law degree.


Good point. I'm just blown away by the lack of consideration for possibility of advancement once you have experience after you do get in a job. Everyone is always talking about this 9 month stat.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby JohannDeMann » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:22 am

My guess for why everyone talks about it is because its only available data point. Judging law careers based on 20 year outcomes of people that graduated in 1990 is dumb because today's legal market is completely different and probably impossible because no data. At this point the only data for law school outcomes is the 9 month marker after graduation and anecdotal evidence of graduates 2010 or later in their jobs today. And only one of those is readily available.

Edit - also, this board really lacks graduates of TTTs, so the T1 and T14 grads/students tend to talk about what they know which is the 9 month data instead of the 2, 3, and 4 year graduate stories which they don't know because they don't know 300 TTT grads.

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jchiles
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby jchiles » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:29 am

AReasonableMan wrote:Due to non-big law hiring normally coming either during 3L year or post-bar passage, you have to do really well for all 3 years.


This point needs to be brought up every time someone talks about any non-T14 school, because it really affects your law school experience. 1L grades are probably most important regardless of what school you go to, but I'm amazed how with how work I see people put in 2L and 3L at my school compared to what this site might lead you to believe. At a T3 school, nobody ever really gets to relax about their employment situation and therefore competition for grades has to be strong all 3 years instead of dropping off a bit after 1L.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby JohannDeMann » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:38 am

jchiles wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:Due to non-big law hiring normally coming either during 3L year or post-bar passage, you have to do really well for all 3 years.


This point needs to be brought up every time someone talks about any non-T14 school, because it really affects your law school experience. 1L grades are probably most important regardless of what school you go to, but I'm amazed how with how work I see people put in 2L and 3L at my school compared to what this site might lead you to believe. At a T3 school, nobody ever really gets to relax about their employment situation and therefore competition for grades has to be strong all 3 years instead of dropping off a bit after 1L.


Did you go to a T3 or are you talking out of your ass? Competition at T3s is a joke. I'm not talking pseudo T3s like Hastings that are actually T50ish schools where people that work hard may go. Actual T3s the library is empty after classes end. People don't hardly ever try including 1L year. The number of people studying past 5pm 1L year is under 20%. The number of 3Ls or 2Ls studying at all is under 20% also. The only people that gave a fuck are law review peeps. I put in 40 hour weeks 1L year and never missed a class and got like a 3.6. After that, I worked so I skipped lots of class and never put in more than a 10 hour week. Maintained GPA. I was def one of the hardest workers at my school.

cmac2210
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby cmac2210 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:57 am

JohannDeMann wrote:
jchiles wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:Due to non-big law hiring normally coming either during 3L year or post-bar passage, you have to do really well for all 3 years.


This point needs to be brought up every time someone talks about any non-T14 school, because it really affects your law school experience. 1L grades are probably most important regardless of what school you go to, but I'm amazed how with how work I see people put in 2L and 3L at my school compared to what this site might lead you to believe. At a T3 school, nobody ever really gets to relax about their employment situation and therefore competition for grades has to be strong all 3 years instead of dropping off a bit after 1L.


Did you go to a T3 or are you talking out of your ass? Competition at T3s is a joke. I'm not talking pseudo T3s like Hastings that are actually T50ish schools where people that work hard may go. Actual T3s the library is empty after classes end. People don't hardly ever try including 1L year. The number of people studying past 5pm 1L year is under 20%. The number of 3Ls or 2Ls studying at all is under 20% also. The only people that gave a fuck are law review peeps. I put in 40 hour weeks 1L year and never missed a class and got like a 3.6. After that, I worked so I skipped lots of class and never put in more than a 10 hour week. Maintained GPA. I was def one of the hardest workers at my school.


What school did you go to? Was it a 3?

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby JohannDeMann » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:15 am

One ranked below 100.

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pancakes3
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:33 am

JohannDeMann wrote:Obvi 9 month rate of emplyoment gives a good glimpse into the nature of things relative to other schools by establishing a universal benchmark. However, youd be foolish to judge a lifetime investment at the 9 month mark.

So it's easy to see when you compare outcomes that Northwestern beats John Marshall at the 9 month mark based on employment and salary and can thus gage Northwestern is a better school. But judging whether John Marshall is worth it according to those stats will lead to some pretty terrible valuation analysis. Since we graduated people who were unemployed or doing doc review at the 9 month mark have climbed the ladder to govt jobs, big firms, establishing the firms they opened to biglaw equivalent salaries, or just networked within small law and received significant pay bumps. Or they've progressed in JD advantage jobs much faster than anyone else because of their JD etc. At graduation median salary was def like 50k. 3-4 years out its at least 80k and probably 100. More importantly, everyone is getting in their groove and working in jobs they like.

The numbers are useful again to gage schools against each other, but I think the numbers are really deceptive when considering the overall value of a law degree.


JohannDeMann wrote:My guess for why everyone talks about it is because its only available data point. Judging law careers based on 20 year outcomes of people that graduated in 1990 is dumb because today's legal market is completely different and probably impossible because no data. At this point the only data for law school outcomes is the 9 month marker after graduation and anecdotal evidence of graduates 2010 or later in their jobs today. And only one of those is readily available.

Edit - also, this board really lacks graduates of TTTs, so the T1 and T14 grads/students tend to talk about what they know which is the 9 month data instead of the 2, 3, and 4 year graduate stories which they don't know because they don't know 300 TTT grads.


JohannDeMann wrote:Did you go to a T3 or are you talking out of your ass? Competition at T3s is a joke. I'm not talking pseudo T3s like Hastings that are actually T50ish schools where people that work hard may go. Actual T3s the library is empty after classes end. People don't hardly ever try including 1L year. The number of people studying past 5pm 1L year is under 20%. The number of 3Ls or 2Ls studying at all is under 20% also. The only people that gave a fuck are law review peeps. I put in 40 hour weeks 1L year and never missed a class and got like a 3.6. After that, I worked so I skipped lots of class and never put in more than a 10 hour week. Maintained GPA. I was def one of the hardest workers at my school.


So the "law school scam" is a scam in and of itself? The legal labor disparity is merely an inefficiency? You can half-ass your way through any law school, miss out on a couple more years of unrealized biglaw wages, but after 2-3 years you're right back in the thick of things pulling down 6 figures? I don't mean for this to come off as incredulous. I'm just curious.

As one of the hardest working people at your T3, you got straight into legal employment but you know literally hundreds of other T3 grads who didn't work as hard, were unemployed for 2-4 years, but then somehow settled into 80-100k+ salaries? I'd be bitter af if I were you.

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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby cmac2210 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:41 am

pancakes3 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:Obvi 9 month rate of emplyoment gives a good glimpse into the nature of things relative to other schools by establishing a universal benchmark. However, youd be foolish to judge a lifetime investment at the 9 month mark.

So it's easy to see when you compare outcomes that Northwestern beats John Marshall at the 9 month mark based on employment and salary and can thus gage Northwestern is a better school. But judging whether John Marshall is worth it according to those stats will lead to some pretty terrible valuation analysis. Since we graduated people who were unemployed or doing doc review at the 9 month mark have climbed the ladder to govt jobs, big firms, establishing the firms they opened to biglaw equivalent salaries, or just networked within small law and received significant pay bumps. Or they've progressed in JD advantage jobs much faster than anyone else because of their JD etc. At graduation median salary was def like 50k. 3-4 years out its at least 80k and probably 100. More importantly, everyone is getting in their groove and working in jobs they like.

The numbers are useful again to gage schools against each other, but I think the numbers are really deceptive when considering the overall value of a law degree.


JohannDeMann wrote:My guess for why everyone talks about it is because its only available data point. Judging law careers based on 20 year outcomes of people that graduated in 1990 is dumb because today's legal market is completely different and probably impossible because no data. At this point the only data for law school outcomes is the 9 month marker after graduation and anecdotal evidence of graduates 2010 or later in their jobs today. And only one of those is readily available.

Edit - also, this board really lacks graduates of TTTs, so the T1 and T14 grads/students tend to talk about what they know which is the 9 month data instead of the 2, 3, and 4 year graduate stories which they don't know because they don't know 300 TTT grads.


JohannDeMann wrote:Did you go to a T3 or are you talking out of your ass? Competition at T3s is a joke. I'm not talking pseudo T3s like Hastings that are actually T50ish schools where people that work hard may go. Actual T3s the library is empty after classes end. People don't hardly ever try including 1L year. The number of people studying past 5pm 1L year is under 20%. The number of 3Ls or 2Ls studying at all is under 20% also. The only people that gave a fuck are law review peeps. I put in 40 hour weeks 1L year and never missed a class and got like a 3.6. After that, I worked so I skipped lots of class and never put in more than a 10 hour week. Maintained GPA. I was def one of the hardest workers at my school.


So the "law school scam" is a scam in and of itself? The legal labor disparity is merely an inefficiency? You can half-ass your way through any law school, miss out on a couple more years of unrealized biglaw wages, but after 2-3 years you're right back in the thick of things pulling down 6 figures? I don't mean for this to come off as incredulous. I'm just curious.

As one of the hardest working people at your T3, you got straight into legal employment but you know literally hundreds of other T3 grads who didn't work as hard, were unemployed for 2-4 years, but then somehow settled into 80-100k+ salaries? I'd be bitter af if I were you.


I don't necessarily believe the whole "I've been unemployed for 2 years" thing. All I see is the 9 month stat and speculation on how that plays out for the rest of a grass life, but there is no evidence to suggest that a t3 or 4 grad can't work, earn experience, and move to bigger and better things. 10 years plus working with attorneys and the tier of school is never mentioned in that circle. Also, say you go to an illustrious top 14 school that 3 years later falls to 17. Then what? Do you carry a copy of the rankings as they were at the time of your graduation to bolster your credentials? I'm not
Being a smart ass, it's just stuff I wonder.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby JohannDeMann » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:46 am

Some of the people work at immigration firms and are bilingual hence something I couldn't do. Others took major balls and opened their own firm day 1 out the gate and prolly scraped by a couple of years before now. Other people had science and IP backgrounds which I didn't have so I couldn't do what they did. Others left law completely and work for big banks and do stuff I would find really monotonous. I'm not bitter cause most of these people are my friends and everyone went through some scary times. Sometimes I'm a bit amazed at how they've landed on their feet but being bitter is dumb. I'm happy with my outcome. The people with the easiest paths that I was jealous of right at graduation are the most miserable people I know and I don't envy them at all anymore. It would also be foolish for me not to want them to succeed since that is my network and may be who helps me out in the future.

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pancakes3
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:24 am

cmac2210 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:Obvi 9 month rate of emplyoment gives a good glimpse into the nature of things relative to other schools by establishing a universal benchmark. However, youd be foolish to judge a lifetime investment at the 9 month mark.

So it's easy to see when you compare outcomes that Northwestern beats John Marshall at the 9 month mark based on employment and salary and can thus gage Northwestern is a better school. But judging whether John Marshall is worth it according to those stats will lead to some pretty terrible valuation analysis. Since we graduated people who were unemployed or doing doc review at the 9 month mark have climbed the ladder to govt jobs, big firms, establishing the firms they opened to biglaw equivalent salaries, or just networked within small law and received significant pay bumps. Or they've progressed in JD advantage jobs much faster than anyone else because of their JD etc. At graduation median salary was def like 50k. 3-4 years out its at least 80k and probably 100. More importantly, everyone is getting in their groove and working in jobs they like.

The numbers are useful again to gage schools against each other, but I think the numbers are really deceptive when considering the overall value of a law degree.


JohannDeMann wrote:My guess for why everyone talks about it is because its only available data point. Judging law careers based on 20 year outcomes of people that graduated in 1990 is dumb because today's legal market is completely different and probably impossible because no data. At this point the only data for law school outcomes is the 9 month marker after graduation and anecdotal evidence of graduates 2010 or later in their jobs today. And only one of those is readily available.

Edit - also, this board really lacks graduates of TTTs, so the T1 and T14 grads/students tend to talk about what they know which is the 9 month data instead of the 2, 3, and 4 year graduate stories which they don't know because they don't know 300 TTT grads.


JohannDeMann wrote:Did you go to a T3 or are you talking out of your ass? Competition at T3s is a joke. I'm not talking pseudo T3s like Hastings that are actually T50ish schools where people that work hard may go. Actual T3s the library is empty after classes end. People don't hardly ever try including 1L year. The number of people studying past 5pm 1L year is under 20%. The number of 3Ls or 2Ls studying at all is under 20% also. The only people that gave a fuck are law review peeps. I put in 40 hour weeks 1L year and never missed a class and got like a 3.6. After that, I worked so I skipped lots of class and never put in more than a 10 hour week. Maintained GPA. I was def one of the hardest workers at my school.


So the "law school scam" is a scam in and of itself? The legal labor disparity is merely an inefficiency? You can half-ass your way through any law school, miss out on a couple more years of unrealized biglaw wages, but after 2-3 years you're right back in the thick of things pulling down 6 figures? I don't mean for this to come off as incredulous. I'm just curious.

As one of the hardest working people at your T3, you got straight into legal employment but you know literally hundreds of other T3 grads who didn't work as hard, were unemployed for 2-4 years, but then somehow settled into 80-100k+ salaries? I'd be bitter af if I were you.


I don't necessarily believe the whole "I've been unemployed for 2 years" thing. All I see is the 9 month stat and speculation on how that plays out for the rest of a grass life, but there is no evidence to suggest that a t3 or 4 grad can't work, earn experience, and move to bigger and better things. 10 years plus working with attorneys and the tier of school is never mentioned in that circle. Also, say you go to an illustrious top 14 school that 3 years later falls to 17. Then what? Do you carry a copy of the rankings as they were at the time of your graduation to bolster your credentials? I'm not
Being a smart ass, it's just stuff I wonder.


Well part of the mystique of the T14 is that they've never fallen out of the T14.

JohannDeMann wrote:Some of the people work at immigration firms and are bilingual hence something I couldn't do. Others took major balls and opened their own firm day 1 out the gate and prolly scraped by a couple of years before now. Other people had science and IP backgrounds which I didn't have so I couldn't do what they did. Others left law completely and work for big banks and do stuff I would find really monotonous. I'm not bitter cause most of these people are my friends and everyone went through some scary times. Sometimes I'm a bit amazed at how they've landed on their feet but being bitter is dumb. I'm happy with my outcome. The people with the easiest paths that I was jealous of right at graduation are the most miserable people I know and I don't envy them at all anymore. It would also be foolish for me not to want them to succeed since that is my network and may be who helps me out in the future.


Interesting perspective, I suppose.

cmac2210
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby cmac2210 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:27 am

Seriously, thanks to everyone. I'm staying in the Pacific Northwest or Alaska and am considering all the schools in Washington and a handful of others. The stats for the schools seem to be in the same ballpark as each other so I'm left to wonder how much it really matters if big law isn't anyway shape or form an objective.

03152016
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby 03152016 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:32 am

seriously, no one has asked yet?

what do you want to do op

working in "government" is as broad as saying you want to work in the "private sector"

timbs4339
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:58 pm

If you invest 200K in a "prestigious" graduate degree and the school has employment stats of less than 50% in the professional program it purports to prepare you for and those people are making a median salary of 40-60K, then there is a very significant presumption that the stats 2 years or 5 years out aren't much better. That's to say you should demand very strong data from the law schools to rebut that presumption instead of using anecdotal data and wishful thinking like an unemployed grad can just "work her way up" to a biglaw associate position in the few years after school (I feel pretty confident in saying this doesn't happen unless you have one-of-a-kind personal connections).

I'm sure most of the people who graduate JMLS under or un-employed are doing something to make money 5 years out. But they probably would have been in a better position, debt/salary wise, with their UG degree plus the three years of WE they missed out on by going to law school.

AReasonableMan
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby AReasonableMan » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:52 pm

Even if your school is paid for, the difference between a t3 and t-14 is the same. It really just gives you more options on what to do coming out. You're still forfeiting the same placement #'s, and pedigree. The only difference is the downside of unemployment isn't as catastrophic. However, the analysis should be similar except for the fact scholarship totals won't matter.

Moneytrees
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby Moneytrees » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:13 pm

Being a 165+ applicant with a solid GPA and attending a Tier 3 school is hard for many of us to fathom, because the current admissions climate is rife with Tier 1 schools that are giving out massive scholarships to qualified candidates. A few years ago, this wasn't the case.

It's hard to justify anybody with top 20 numbers going to a Tier 3 school nowadays, no? Would like to hear other perspectives on this question, if there are any.

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AreJay711
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Re: Tier 3... Really that bad?

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:50 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
jchiles wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:Due to non-big law hiring normally coming either during 3L year or post-bar passage, you have to do really well for all 3 years.


This point needs to be brought up every time someone talks about any non-T14 school, because it really affects your law school experience. 1L grades are probably most important regardless of what school you go to, but I'm amazed how with how work I see people put in 2L and 3L at my school compared to what this site might lead you to believe. At a T3 school, nobody ever really gets to relax about their employment situation and therefore competition for grades has to be strong all 3 years instead of dropping off a bit after 1L.


Did you go to a T3 or are you talking out of your ass? Competition at T3s is a joke. I'm not talking pseudo T3s like Hastings that are actually T50ish schools where people that work hard may go. Actual T3s the library is empty after classes end. People don't hardly ever try including 1L year. The number of people studying past 5pm 1L year is under 20%. The number of 3Ls or 2Ls studying at all is under 20% also. The only people that gave a fuck are law review peeps. I put in 40 hour weeks 1L year and never missed a class and got like a 3.6. After that, I worked so I skipped lots of class and never put in more than a 10 hour week. Maintained GPA. I was def one of the hardest workers at my school.


I wish I could go back to 10 hour weeks :cry:




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