Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

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nothingtosee
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby nothingtosee » Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:21 am

Are mistakengenius and seoulless the same person?

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MistakenGenius
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby MistakenGenius » Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:41 am

WheatThins wrote:
MistakenGenius wrote: I frankly know nothing about the school or the state of Kansas beyond what I've learned here in this thread.


Then this school is not for you. No one, including the dean, would tell you otherwise. Move along.


Undoubtedly this school isn't for me. I'm at another school as you'd know if you'd glance at either my past postings or profile, I was simply phrasing my question as a potential student might because I am curious to hear his answer and I feel quite a few students might be interested in hearing the answer as well, so no, I shan't.

I haven't followed Seoulless' posts enough to know how to take that or why you'd think we could be the same person, but I feel even a cursory glance could show if that were true or not. :)

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20160810
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby 20160810 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:27 am

I'm all for scaring people out of bad law schools and KU isn't a great one, but for kids from Kansas who want to work in Kansas it's probably fine, especially if they're willing to drop out after getting crappy 1L grades.

kcdc1
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby kcdc1 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:49 am

This thread has been derailed by endless trolling from people who have never been to Kansas, have no interest in KU law, believe that biglaw is the primary goal when entering law school, and believe that anyone can score 170 on the LSAT if they work hard enough -- or at least that those who can't are not fit to be lawyers.

Meanwhile, KU's dean of admissions is evidently unfamiliar with internet message boards and TLS's culture in particular. I do not see how this thread can possibly be helpful to the university at this point, and I would advise him to discontinue posting in this thread. If he feels that a Q&A on TLS would be helpful to prospective applicants, I would suggest coordinating with a moderator and starting a new thread with very strict guidelines against off-topic posting and trolling.

And I'd also suggest that the Dean become somewhat more familiar with TLS's culture before opening a new thread. This is a crowd that (largely correctly) believes law schools prey on students. I do not believe that KU is predatory, but if your school is ranked lower than #13, TLS presumes that you are taking advantage of students who do not do their homework on cost of attendance and employment outcomes. KU is a regional school that can credibly portray itself as cost-conscious and focused on continuing to improve its employment outcomes in Kansas City and Wichita. This is a sales pitch that is will go over reasonably well on TLS. However, going beyond that core message, e.g. to boast about the KU degree's portability, will be perceived as predatory.

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Rigo
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby Rigo » Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:51 pm

Okay here are some admissions questions. These are right up your alley.
We will surely appreciate your candor. Please try to avoid giving canned answers that overstate how holistic KU is. We aren't dumb and know numbers rule. Thank you in advance.

So it's a new cycle & applications will start coming in soon:

[*]What kind of goals are set for the next incoming class and by who? Is a specific goal like "We are holding our 158 median" set right out of the gate?

[*]How does this goal affect decisions? Are people above medians put on the fast track? How does the sorting of applications work? Is there essentially a "very strong numbers", "around median numbers", and "weak numbers" pile?

[*]Does KU have de facto GPA/LSAT floors? Is there a formula you use to weigh an applicant's stats and provide a suggested admissions decision?

[*]How much do you read into overall trends like the decline in applicants and the decline in LSAT administrations? Do you ever read the writing on the wall and say "Maintaining a 158 might be too hard this year so realistically we're going to target 157"? Or, how do these trends affect class size goals? For example, if applicants decrease by 8%, does KU anticipate a similar reduction in class size? Do the goals change from year to year between maintaining medians or sacrificing medians for a larger class size and more revenue? Really take us through this goal setting thought process and how you conform the admissions process to further those goals.

[*]How does your school's yield rate play into doling out a certain number of acceptances and waitlist offers?

[*]How do you treat URM applicants? How do you give them a bump while balancing medians? About how big is the bump?

[*]What about other types of diversity? Since KU has a relatively small class size, do you actively try to have different identity groups (such as gay students) represented? Feel free to talk about being holistic here, but we would appreciate any concrete strategies for recruiting students with minority perspectives where a possible token admit may be a goal that overrides numbers.

JayhawkLaw
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:24 pm

Everyone, I'm mostly concentrating on enjoying the holiday so I probably won't answer all the questions here for another couple of days. But thought I'd pick off a few of the easy ones.

1) Big law firms #1. Someone mentioned that the largest law firm in Kansas is Foulston Siefkin. That's likely true, but ignores the fact that five NLJ 250 law firms are headquartered forty miles to our east in Kansas City, MO with several other NLJ 250 law firms (Bryan Cave, Denton's) having regional offices in KC. We are the number one school for placing graduates in biglaw positions in Kansas and Kansas City.

2) Big law firms #2. One of the posters complains that I must tell folks that they should attend a T-14 law school if their goal is to work at the biggest law firms in New York and D.C. That's kind of funny since that's almost word for word what I tell students at information sessions, school visits, and one on one counseling, except that I tell students they should attend a T-6 school if that is their goal. I've said it one on one, I've said it in front of a hundred prospective students.

3) Big law firms #3. One nice thing about a KU Law degree is that while we are by no means a feeder school for the biglaw law firms outside of Kansas City, those opportunities do exist. So if you at least want to leave the door open for such an outcome, KU Law is a good choice.

From 2009 to 2013, our students have found employment as associates at the following firms, all of which I believe are NLJ 250 firms. While it's not a huge list, keep in mind three things. 1) We do not track where students who do federal clerkships end up, so there are likely more NLJ 250 law firms on this list, 2) Most of our students are not interested in practicing in NLJ 250 law firms. With an average debt at graduation of $74,000, they do not have to. 3) This period covers the five worst years for biglaw legal employment in memory. I don't have the list for the prior five year period, but I would imagine it's longer.

Snell & Wilmer (AZ) Goodwin Procter (NY)
Morgan Lewis (Los Angeles, CA) Gardere Wynn (TX)
O'Melveny & Meyers (Los Angeles, CA) Hayes Boone (TX)
Arnold & Palmer (DC) Thompson & Knight (TX)
Wiley Rein (DC) Patton Boggs (TX)
Finnegan Henderson (DC) Foley & Lardner (WI)

Forgot one: Clifford Chance (Germany)

For a complete list of employers, you can visit our website at http://law.ku.edu/us-world-employers#world and http://law.ku.edu/ks-mo-employers.

For those with an agenda, let me clear. Outcomes like these are not typical for our students. Including our home market here in Kansas and Kansas City, in a typical year we place about 15% of our students in biglaw positions anywhere (I'm including judicial clerks going on to those positions after the clerkship). To end up at a law firm like O'Melveny or Patton Boggs, you will need to have outstanding grades and an excellent resume. But you can do it as a KU Law alum and we will help you get there.

Now back to the holidays!
Last edited by JayhawkLaw on Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fats provolone
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby fats provolone » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:25 pm

fats provolone wrote:what are some good ways to work hard and do well in law school?

i think this got lost in the job stats slap fight

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eriedoctrine
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby eriedoctrine » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:52 pm

JayhawkLaw wrote:Everyone, I'm mostly concentrating on enjoying the holiday so I probably won't answer all the questions here for another couple of days. But thought I'd pick off a few of the easy ones.

1) Big law firms #1. Someone mentioned that the largest law firm in Kansas is Foulston Siefkin. That's likely true, but ignores the fact that five NLJ 250 law firms are headquartered forty miles to our east in Kansas City, MO with several other NLJ 250 law firms (Bryan Cave, Denton's) having regional offices in KC. We are the number one school for placing graduates in biglaw positions in Kansas and Kansas City.

Firstly, I highly doubt that your law school places #1 in Kansas City, MO. That honor would most likely go to UM-Kansas City, UM-Columbia, or WashU in St. Louis. However if you meant Kansas City being that of Kansas City, KS rather than the metropolitan of Kansas City, MO, this is misleading given your prior mention of bigfirms in Kansas City, MO leading prospective students to interpret your latter mention of Kansas City being the one in MO, not KS.

If however you were indeed referring to Kansas City, MO, your statement of being #1 would most likely only be true if you were referring to the aggregate placement of your graduates in both the State of Kansas AND Kansas City, MO, in which case it's again misleading because it's obvious that University of Kansas would place #1 in the State of Kansas since no one from anywhere else would want those jobs.


2) Big law firms #2. One of the posters complains that I must tell folks that they should attend a T-14 law school if their goal is to work at the biggest law firms in New York and D.C. That's kind of funny since that's almost word for word what I tell students at information sessions, school visits, and one on one counseling, except that I tell students they should attend a T-6 school if that is their goal. I've said it one on one, I've said it in front of a hundred prospective students.

Probably the most genuine thing you've said in this thread if it can be substantiated. I'll give you that.

3) Big law firms #3. One nice thing about a KU Law degree is that while we are by no means a feeder school for the biglaw law firms outside of Kansas City, those opportunities do exist. So if you at least want to leave the door open for such an outcome, KU Law is a good choice.

This applies to pretty much all law schools. As for your school, this "open door" is ~ 2%. Really now?
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... ation/2013


From 2009 to 2013, our students have found employment as associates at the following firms, all of which I believe are NLJ 250 firms. While it's not a huge list, keep in mind three things. 1) We do not track where students who do federal clerkships end up, so there are likely more NLJ 250 law firms on this list, 2) Most of our students are not interested in practicing in NLJ 250 law firms. With an average debt at graduation of $74,000, they do not have to. 3) This period covers the five worst years for biglaw legal employment in memory. I don't have the list for the prior five year period, but I would imagine it's longer.

Snell & Wilmer (AZ) Goodwin Procter (NY)
Morgan Lewis (Los Angeles, CA) Gardere Wynn (TX)
O'Melveny & Meyers (Los Angeles, CA) Hayes Boone (TX)
Arnold & Palmer (DC) Thompson & Knight (TX)
Wiley Rein (DC) Patton Boggs (TX)
Finnegan Henderson (DC) Foley & Lardner (WI)

Forgot one: Clifford Chance (Germany)

For a complete list of employers, you can visit our website at http://law.ku.edu/us-world-employers#world and http://law.ku.edu/ks-mo-employers.

Again, pretty sure any law school in the country over a 5 year period can bring up such a list. In your case, given the broad scope you granted yourself, the list is incredibly underwhelming.

For those with an agenda, let me clear. Outcomes like these are not typical for our students. Including our home market here in Kansas and Kansas City, in a typical year we place about 15% of our students in biglaw positions anywhere (I'm including judicial clerks going on to those positions after the clerkship). To end up at a law firm like O'Melveny or Patton Boggs, you will need to have outstanding grades and an excellent resume. But you can do it as a KU Law alum and we will help you get there.

15%? Your school has never reached even 10% in the past few years for good outcomes of biglaw + fed clerk.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/kansas/2013/


Now back to the holidays!

JayhawkLaw
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:43 pm

@ eriedoctrine:

Go to the websites of the five NLJ 350 law firms in Kansas City, Missouri (Shook, Polisinelli, Lathrop, Husch Blackwell and Stinson Leanord). Sort the attorneys by where they went to law school. Count. Then report your findings to TLS.

Because when the Kansas City Business Journal did that two years ago, KU Law was #1. More than Mizzou, UMKC or Wash U. Other schools were close, but we were #1. I'm not a huge fan of rankings, but I like that one. And yes, we are also #1 in Kansas City, Kansas.

AReasonableMan
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby AReasonableMan » Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:05 pm

Different people have different definitions of big law. There's no reason for a Kansas City firm to have 500 attorneys. Even in big law, the actual offices in DC or LA sometimes don't even have a 100 attorneys, but are big law because the headquarter office has 500 lawyers. If a Kansas attorney is making market then it's not really any different than being at Skadden. I would define big law as any firm that pays market. The actual number of attorneys is pretty arbitrary.

If a Kansas firm doesn't have offices in NY and SF, and focuses on Kansas clientele they're never going to be "big law." Going to Kansas to get to NY is always going to be a crazy idea so you're unfairly penalizing a school if the metric of big law is limited to 500 plus attorney firms. Regardless of the economy, that business model would never make sense for a Kansas firm.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:32 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:If a Kansas attorney is making market then it's not really any different than being at Skadden.


sounds better actually.

/was in kansas for all of one day ever

/but still

thisismyname
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby thisismyname » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:46 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:If a Kansas attorney is making market then it's not really any different than being at Skadden.


sounds better actually.

/was in kansas for all of one day ever

/but still

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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby reasonable person » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:14 am

JayhawkLaw wrote:@ eriedoctrine:

Go to the websites of the five NLJ 350 law firms in Kansas City, Missouri (Shook, Polisinelli, Lathrop, Husch Blackwell and Stinson Leanord). Sort the attorneys by where they went to law school. Count. Then report your findings to TLS.

Because when the Kansas City Business Journal did that two years ago, KU Law was #1. More than Mizzou, UMKC or Wash U. Other schools were close, but we were #1. I'm not a huge fan of rankings, but I like that one. And yes, we are also #1 in Kansas City, Kansas.


I personally do believe you in that the law school may be leading slightly as number one in KC. However, you should understand that given your past history of misleading comparatives and in the particular thread, the overreaching statements that Erie also replied to, many TLSers are inclined to believe differently.

Also if you weren't #1 in the State of Kansas, that'd be a BIG problem.

JayhawkLaw
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:11 pm

That's it, I surrender. This thread has clearly been hijacked by a few posters committed to keeping this thread off topic.

At this point if I said that the number eight follows the number seven, a crew of posters would jump on here. First they'd accuse me of being misleading. Then when confronted with the fact that eight in fact follows seven, they'd say well, that might be true, but you were misleading when you said seven follows six. At which point...well, you get the idea. Nothing I can say on here will satisfy the naysayers.

In a nutshell, clearly there is no chance for me to achieve my purpose here, to answer questions about KU Law from people who are genuinely interested in our school.

Some folks might ask why I did this. At this point that's a darned good question. But here was my thinking. I did this two times previously, in 2011-2012 and 2012-2013. While I had to deal with some of the TLS nonsense, it was not nearly at this level. The reason I re-started the thread was that aside from those posters - who have absolutely zero interest in KU Law and couldn't place Kansas on a map if their life depended on it - I have heard a lot of positive feedback in the past from posters who enjoyed the posts. They asked good questions and I gave them what I hope were some good answers. So that's why I did it, to reach out and communicate to students.

It's too bad this thread got hijacked by people with no actual interest in KU Law. My sense of TLS is that five percent of viewers are generating ninety-five percent of the posts and one hundred percent of the heat. In fact, many of the posters who posted in past threads reappeared here in this one. Their agenda is clear - we get it. They think going to any law school not named Harvard is a terrible idea. Well, I'm sorry but I disagree with you. Further, it's not misleading, deceptive, or dishonest to suggest otherwise. We've got a great program here, and our students and alumni are pretty consistent in thinking KU Law is a great choice for law school.

So go, have a party. You defeated a law school administrator trying to answer a few questions for prospective students. The five percent of TLS'ers with a fixed agenda are now safe from hearing information that may conflict with that agenda. I suppose that's a real feather in your cap. Except, I wonder. If your goal all along has been transparency, how does shutting down communication further your goal?

For the majority of folks here, those who are genuinely interested in KU Law and were hoping to have their questions answered, please feel free to contact me at the office.

Rock Chalk!

sf

p.s. To be clear, I will not be responding to any posts from this point forward. After the break, I'll PM those posters who had actual questions about KU Law.
Last edited by JayhawkLaw on Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fats provolone
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby fats provolone » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:13 pm

i hope this was a teachable moment for you, tlspies

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whitespider
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby whitespider » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:15 pm

This is why we can't have nice things.

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fats provolone
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby fats provolone » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:17 pm

the agendists strike again

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fats provolone
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby fats provolone » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:18 pm

burgermeister meister burgers

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cotiger
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby cotiger » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:21 pm

Such HARD HITTING QUESTIONS from the future lawyers in this thread. Good thing you'll be searching for comma errors instead of running depositions.

You have an actual admissions dean here and all you can muster is dipshittery like:
(in the annoying Serial defense attorney voice)
-WHYYYYYYYY did youuu sayy you could get a jobbb outside the region, when only 25% of people leave KS/MO?????
-WHYYYYYYYY did youuu sayy that you need GOOD grades to get a biglaw job, when you really need GREAT ones??????
-WHYYYYYYYY doo yourrrr marketing materials portray youuu in a positive light???????

If you want to press him on ethically questionable areas of law school admissions, maybe try something like:
Scholarship offers at most law schools track very closely with LSAT/GPA. I imagine that offers from KU, even granting a certain holistic element, generally conform to that statement. Considering that students with higher scores tend to come from more privileged backgrounds and are more likely to succeed in law school and ultimately in finding employment, why do you feel such a policy is justified?

Or if you're interested in the general process, there's stuff like this:
drigio wrote:How much do you read into overall trends like the decline in applicants and the decline in LSAT administrations? Do you ever read the writing on the wall and say "Maintaining a 158 might be too hard this year so realistically we're going to target 157"? Or, how do these trends affect class size goals? For example, if applicants decrease by 8%, does KU anticipate a similar reduction in class size? Do the goals change from year to year between maintaining medians or sacrificing medians for a larger class size and more revenue? Really take us through this goal setting thought process and how you conform the admissions process to further those goals.


But for the love of god, stop with the "You said 15% get biglaw jobs, but really it's only 10%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and "You said LST ranked you in the top third, but really they don't rank!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

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cotiger
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby cotiger » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:21 pm

aaaaaand perfect

great job guys

you got him good!

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Sheriff
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby Sheriff » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:28 pm

To be fair, he deserves credit for lasting as long as he did.

(in before "that's what she said" joke)

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fats provolone
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby fats provolone » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:30 pm

now's our chance to hit him while he's down. let's all get fee waivers and never apply

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fats provolone
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby fats provolone » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:31 pm

somebody take the LSAT for darascal and get him a full ride

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Skool
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby Skool » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:36 pm

Eh. The guy wanted a platform to himself. TLS wouldn't give it to him. No reason for the good Dean to get all high and mighty or for folks to start white knighting as if this thread was ever really salvageable.

Move along, folks.

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fats provolone
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Re: Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions

Postby fats provolone » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:37 pm

fuck you i won't do what you tell me




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