False consciousness / alienation / Transparency 2.0

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Businesslady
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby Businesslady » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:42 pm

Excerpt from a book by the faculty director of Wharton's Advanced Management Program on why the skills gap is flame:

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"We don't tell stories anymore"

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http://www.gq.com/entertainment/movies- ... ark-harris

Secondhand writing on Eichmann in Jerusalem (which, like, just read the whole actual thing sometime, but)

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Diffusion of responsibility
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_ ... onsibility

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bk1
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby bk1 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:50 pm

Businesslady wrote:
bk1 wrote:I'm just not sure most people, heck even most tlsers, care enough to think about these sorts of things.

Yes, that's part of the premise. 3 years in a "Socratic" environment and never getting the memo about the unexamined life.

My point was more that this thread isn't going to change that. I agree it may change it for some and maybe that makes this thread worth it. I will say that, while introspection is a large part of what this thread is trying to encourage, I think your approach asks too much of most people. You'd reach more people if you made it more accessible at the outset before suggesting that they look deeper.

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Businesslady
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby Businesslady » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:30 pm

bk1 wrote:
Businesslady wrote:
bk1 wrote:I'm just not sure most people, heck even most tlsers, care enough to think about these sorts of things.

Yes, that's part of the premise. 3 years in a "Socratic" environment and never getting the memo about the unexamined life.

My point was more that this thread isn't going to change that. I agree it may change it for some and maybe that makes this thread worth it. I will say that, while introspection is a large part of what this thread is trying to encourage, I think your approach asks too much of most people. You'd reach more people if you made it more accessible at the outset before suggesting that they look deeper.


Hi bk1. Everyone else: this is a response to bk1 and if anyone is reading this you should know I don't want to really tell anyone how to live just yet. Just how to think.

ABSTRACT: "You can give the fear to strivers but you can't make them think" is kind of antithetical to a website about being trained in rule synthesis and exploring the reasoning of social norms and policies. The ones this thread will reach are the ones that need it most. The scamblog meme is perfectly digestible for the masses and the conventional wisdom will do what it does on that front and people can go do a vocational program of study and never have to read dense blocks of text closely and thoughtfully.

1) Getting to a more populist meme that I'm comfortable in light of the categorical imperative is a work in progress. The name of this website is not All-Law-Schools so I kind of want to more fully explore elite theory (#notalllawschools). I don't really have a properly developed unifying theory of striver trash as Eichmanns or Alienation for Dummies that's not confrontational yet. I can't shake the whole "if you don't want to read this, have fun reading cases, asshole" thing. Maybe it will come to me tomorrow or another day when I peak on stims but note this is a young thread.

2) The 'law school scam' meme is important and valid but it is also kind of neoliberal and more focused on the "don't give away money, federal government, risk-averse people are being given the false illusion of middle class comfort, and it's a specific type of fraud, and prestige won't feed your kids" thing than the "fiat money is printed and collected in taxes as part of a theatrical marketplace and the whole exercise of going to law school shouldn't be about learning how to equivocate for corporatists when you could do it as performance art and then do PAYE or live off the grid and actually the loan faucet is a perfectly reasonable investment with play money into a future society but everyone is striving and fucking up what should be a radical-breeding handout program instead of using the tools embedded within the system so why not learn to fight like guerrillas and focus on skills like critique and issue-framing and fighting disingenuous bastards instead of just being professional apologists you fucking pussies but yes it's true it's awful and prescriptive not to acknowledge that it does defraud people out of the white picket fence but hey so does everything else in society these days" but I guess I'm only really thinking about the types of schools that this website names in its URL. Campos does the mass version just fine through the lens of the marketplace. But "make 'em trade schools" is not a comprehensive answer to a crisis that is not rooted in legal education specifically as much as in capitalism/democracy generally.

3) The only safety is in the barracks of capital. I think I want to explore a more Deleuzian idea of why to go to law school. Fuck "jobs." See? I thought I *was* making it accessible.

4) To be fair, people don't listen to experience any more than they read dense texts.

5) I don't know what I think sometimes and I am just tearing away at certain presumptions applied uniformly in a straw man fashion maybe because I am enamored with the fantasy of American law schools as a breeding ground for an undercover millennial New Left or just feeling pissed off at a certain disease of character I see. Mostly I'm appalled at the deadening brute-force education in equivocation that lib arts graduates are effectively herded into because boomer rentiers have all the money and won't "hire." I think startups are corny West Coast bullshit and money is tacky but at least they're ahead of the curve on the Barthes thing and pretend to value life over there.

6) Oh, right, I remember. I just wanted to introduce these concepts because they are empowering and encouraging and comforting and helpful and potentially super-useful. The first two Wiki links are solid and not at that high of a reading level. So your point is taken. Suggestions?

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bk1
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby bk1 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:17 pm

To be fair, I was overly harsh considering you explicitly referred to this as a work in progress in the OP. On a related note: of course the people that like you were going to be interested in this, though my hope was that they wouldn't be the only ones interested (or even a majority of the people interested).

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Businesslady
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby Businesslady » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:49 pm

I'm definitely open to ideas.

e: Wait, the people that like me? I mean, unless that's a veiled compliment that there's a 100% overlap between people willing to actually read things and people that like me, I don't really see the connection? I'm dumb after my meds wear off

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:59 pm

A few things would help:

1) if you provided some context to what the hell you're talking about
2) didn't post this in a forum about admissions advice
3) didn't use lots TLS lingo and memes (this helps to confuse things a lot further)
4) it seems like the only target of this post is TLS memeposters/power users (whoever JBL/ratfukr/DF are, and you seen to be one as well even though you just joined like two months ago, how does that work?)

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:07 pm

The mods okayed posting this in the admissions forum. And I really don't think BL's posts are remotely in TLS memes/lingo.

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06102016
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby 06102016 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:13 pm

..

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:18 pm

ok well I will let the circlejerk continue but I seriously doubt the people without 10k posts are going to find this useful at all

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06102016
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby 06102016 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:29 pm

..

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:31 pm

>he's a moderator
>on the internet
>on a law school forum
>he does it for free
>he looks through old posts of users who disagree with him
>he takes his "job" very seriously
>he does it because it is the only amount of power & control he will ever have in his pathetic life
>he deletes threads he doesn't like because whenever he gets upset he has an asthma attack
>he deletes threads he doesn't like because they interfere with the large backlog of little girl chinese cartoons he still has to watch
>he will never have a real job
>he will never move out of his parent's house
>he will never be at a healthy weight
>he will never know how to cook anything besides a hot pocket
>he will never have a girlfriend
>he will never have any friends

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06102016
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby 06102016 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:40 pm

..

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fats provolone
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby fats provolone » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:40 pm

glass bead game

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:41 pm

james.bungles wrote:>he's a moderator
>on the internet
>on a law school forum
>he does it for free
>he looks through old posts of users who disagree with him
>he takes his "job" very seriously
>he does it because it is the only amount of power & control he will ever have in his pathetic life
>he deletes threads he doesn't like because whenever he gets upset he has an asthma attack
>he deletes threads he doesn't like because they interfere with the large backlog of little girl chinese cartoons he still has to watch
>he will never have a real job
>he will never move out of his parent's house
>he will never be at a healthy weight
>he will never know how to cook anything besides a hot pocket
>he will never have a girlfriend
>he will never have any friends

dude, take this out of this thread. slack's criticisms were at least germane to the topic of this thread.

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fats provolone
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby fats provolone » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:44 pm

haha u guys are just nerds, who cares about reading? only losers with lots of posts!

(apes internet shtick unironically)

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earthabides
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby earthabides » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:45 pm

.
Last edited by earthabides on Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby bk1 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:46 pm

Businesslady wrote:I'm definitely open to ideas.

e: Wait, the people that like me? I mean, unless that's a veiled compliment that there's a 100% overlap between people willing to actually read things and people that like me, I don't really see the connection? I'm dumb after my meds wear off

I mean that people who like you are more open to this thread because of the source whereas people who don't know you (e.g. most on topic posters) are more likely to just roll their eyes and move on (even in spite of chup's post on the front page).

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fats provolone
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby fats provolone » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:50 pm

well they should do more than roll their eyes. like maybe roll their eyes and kill themselves.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:54 pm

fats provolone wrote:well they should do more than roll their eyes. like maybe roll their eyes and kill themselves.


this is the kind of rigorous intellectual response this lofty thread demands

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sundance95
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby sundance95 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:07 am

To move on from that shitstorm, the OP and this thread generally suffer from the same ailment that has always plagued the New Left; it offers only critique (which it understands as undermining the core of our social structure) without simultaneously offering a credible alternate vision.

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06102016
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby 06102016 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:11 am

..

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utahraptor
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby utahraptor » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:21 am

Businesslady wrote:
slackademic wrote:
utahraptor wrote:Yeah, the problem still is that the Camusian would still be ok with leaning into the absurd.

Put simply: just because you're aware of the absurdity of striving doesn't mean you canoe should do anything about it.

I don't really get the Marxist angle. Is this just a flame to see who agrees with half-baked ideas that aren't really put forward in a genuine way?

How do you not get the Marxist angle?

Seriously, though, Smaug, like what about rentier boomer partners and debt as a weapon and risk-averse pooled capital forcing you into smiling slavery at best doesn't scream Marx to you? I said a lobotomized Camusian Sisyphus. The Camusian Sisyphus wants to fight and got there from fighting and defying the gods and understands that his existence is a giant fuck you and so he's happy to do it and has come up against immortals and will always know he's there as a reminder of their stubbornness, that he outsmarted them, and that his 'punishment' is the eternal pleasure of reminding them that they rigged the game. You can't just skip over the part where he locks up Death himself.

This is the exact kind of conclusory nitpicking deadening wet-blanket lawyer schtick that saps people of the will to go in fighting and keep fighting.


Yeah, I don't think this is nitpicking. From this post, I don't think you really get The Myth of Sisyphus, but I don't care enough about this thread to engage you about it from an iPad keyboard.

Like, you get that Camus does skip over that part, right? It's about the struggle in the moment and not about how he got there.

You can call me a dismissive pedant, but i think there's a huge fucking gulf between the Schopenhauer/Nietzsche/Camus side of things and the Hegel/Marx side of things.

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chuckbass
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby chuckbass » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:02 am

I actually think this is really interesting and would like to discuss things, but I'll come back in a few weeks after exams

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ymmv
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby ymmv » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:28 am

Other than the shitshow on this page, thread's the most thought-provoking thing I've seen on TLS all year (FWTW). Will stay tuned.

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Businesslady
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Re: False consciousness / alienation

Postby Businesslady » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:32 am

slackademic wrote:
sundance95 wrote:To move on from that shitstorm, the OP and this thread generally suffer from the same ailment that has always plagued the New Left; it offers only critique (which it understands as undermining the core of our social structure) without simultaneously offering a credible alternate vision.

Not that I'm saying you're totally wrong, but there is a "Start Again" part in the OP which proposes alternatives.

That poster is totally wrong for all practical purposes ITT. Also illustrative of defeatist point-missing braindead prelaw garbage thought.

There's an entire UBI thread linked in the OP and the New Left is not homogenous. But seriously, what do you think law school is?

Anyway just lol at no credible alternate vision. Try "socialism." Motherfucking socialism. Free healthcare. Free education. Free food. 40% (I think?) of what's on supermarket shelves rots in dumpsters while kids starve. Maybe don't waste resources locking people up for taking it. A massive percentage of prison inmates are nonviolent drug offenders. Maybe if adult children read Foucault's Discipline and Punish before showing up in crim and offering suburban fucking ideas from jerking off to COPS we wouldn't have some neoliberal fantasy about law and order getting reinforced every single day wasting everyone's time and debasing entire communities. Maybe if Stevens read Arendt before deciding in Gregg he wouldn't have had to spend the rest of his life wondering what the fuck it was exactly that made him sign off on disingenuously bloodthirsty rationalizations that put bullshit rules above human life.

You realize people on this board are going to law school, and applying doctrines and abstract theories about the world to actual cases, right?

"Hurr durr I don't see a grand design for society with prescriptions for everyone in critique I haven't actually read but like where are your SOLUTIONS. Checkmate libs" isn't really a constructive response to "if you're going to spend 3 years reading cases and trying to extract the reasoning behind them, you may as well read theory and save yourself the cognitive dissonance of wondering whether you should actually be internalizing capital's bullshit lawyerly sophism as if it were actually anything but specious nonsense you get points for acknowledging exists; here's some."

Tl;dr retake or don't go




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