Softs, HYS, and scholarships

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RZ5646

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Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby RZ5646 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:35 pm

I've been searching LSN for people with very high stats who underperformed their numbers, and I'm not really finding any. I don't want to conclude anything from this though, as the softs field is optional and most people seem to leave it blank.
Last edited by RZ5646 on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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malleus discentium

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby malleus discentium » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:34 pm


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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby goldenflash19 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:42 am

I'm not K-JD, but I fit this bill pretty well. Totally average white male from an average state school with average softs. 174/4, all specific schools and offers in the lsn linked to my profile, but in at Harvard, WL'd at Stanford, didn't apply to Yale or Columbia. 90k to Chicago, 50k to NYU.

I think the softs held me back a noticeable amount. They potentially kept me from a Ruby and might be holding me back from Stanford (really want to get off that WL). The NYU offer puzzled me, though.

Edit: please don't quote, thanks.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby 03152016 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:57 am

malleus discentium wrote:http://lawschoolnumbers.com/malleus_applicantium

PM if you have any questions.

seriously?
i didn't think nyu did yp

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malleus discentium

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby malleus discentium » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:11 am

Brut wrote:
malleus discentium wrote:http://lawschoolnumbers.com/malleus_applicantium

PM if you have any questions.

seriously?
i didn't think nyu did yp

Dude, you're telling me. Going into the cycle, I was most confident about NYU but they sure showed me.

But I'm pretty sure it wasn't YP. My softs were dull, as reflected by the weak CLS and Chi scholarship offers.

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RZ5646

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby RZ5646 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:54 am

Thanks for the responses. Anyone else? I'm also interested in scholarship opportunities at MVPB and Cornell and Duke.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby DebtAverse » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:12 am

This is a great thread.

tagged

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby sims1 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:17 am

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/sims1

I think I underperformed my numbers a bit due to being K-JD (got heavy YP across the board despite expressing a lot of interest to Penn and Chicago). In hindsight, I wish I had the opportunity to go back and do my interviews/PS over again as I have since learned a lot about what law schools are looking for from when I started applying in the Fall. I have a really unique and what I consider to be a good soft, however it all comes down to how you portray this to adcoms, and I think I fell a bit short here.

Can't complain though, pretty happy with where I ended up in the end !

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby Chekhov'sGun » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:25 am

RZ5646 wrote:Thanks for the responses. Anyone else? I'm also interested in scholarship opportunities at MVPB and Cornell and Duke.
Don't have as great of numbers as you are asking for, but I found it interesting in my cycle that Cornell offered me 135K while Northwestern offered me zilch. I have two years W/E so I thought if anything my application would be more enticing to NU?

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RZ5646

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby RZ5646 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:11 pm

DebtAverse wrote:This is a great thread.

tagged


Your username is basically my reason for making this thread. It seems like admissions is a numbers game, but scholarship decisions are more of a black box, and that scares me.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby PotenC » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:16 pm

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/Hieroglyphic

My softs were subpar, save for maybe a decent DS. My "Why" statements seemed to be by and large ineffective in curbing YP.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby DebtAverse » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:01 pm

RZ5646 wrote:
DebtAverse wrote:This is a great thread.

tagged


Your username is basically my reason for making this thread. It seems like admissions is a numbers game, but scholarship decisions are more of a black box, and that scares me.


Yes, this exactly. Based on my numbers, it seems like I have a good shot at being admitted to my target schools, but the scholarship amounts reflected on LSN are all over the place.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby Lavitz » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:19 pm

RZ5646 wrote:I've been searching LSN for people with very high stats who underperformed their numbers, and I'm not really finding any.

Many of us delete our LSN profiles. I and a few others were pretty well known for underperforming in the 2012-2013 cycle. Going out right now, but PM me if you want details and I'll respond later.

Turned out to be a good outcome though, and I can tell you that someone with the kind of numbers you mentioned will almost certainly still get big money at the lower T14--softs or no softs.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby cotiger » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:09 am

Lavitz wrote:Turned out to be a good outcome though, and I can tell you that someone with the kind of numbers you mentioned will almost certainly still get big money at the lower T14--softs or no softs.


Which is really pretty much the ideal, anyway.

Tough to call essentially a full-ride from a T14 "underperforming" lol

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby Lavitz » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:33 am

cotiger wrote:
Lavitz wrote:Turned out to be a good outcome though, and I can tell you that someone with the kind of numbers you mentioned will almost certainly still get big money at the lower T14--softs or no softs.


Which is really pretty much the ideal, anyway.

Tough to call essentially a full-ride from a T14 "underperforming" lol

That's why I said it was still a good outcome. Harvard and the others basically just saved mè a ton of money by rejecting me, and I'm a big advocate of taking the $$$ and running. But everyone thought I was an auto-admit, and my lone red dot really stood out in the LSN graphs. Random 0Ls used to message me and ask what went wrong. Objectively speaking, I think it's fair to say you underperformed your cycle as a whole when you can't get into Columbia when you're above both 75ths, etc.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby cotiger » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:55 am

Just checked out our resident underperformers..

If this is what it means to underperform, then op you've got nothing to worry about.

Hieroglyphic: NYU 112k, Columbia 90k, Harvard
Sims1: NYU 105k
Malleus: Chicago 75k, Harvard
Lavitz seems to want to be anon, but he got 150k at t14 when tuition was roughly 50k

Sims and malleus seemed to make the mistake of not applying to all t14, making it more difficult to pull a Lavitz. Still, these results are some of the very best possible. Six figures from CCN? Yes, please. Sorry you didn't snag a full-ride, but those are tough to get.

Sorry to pile on, bungles, ( :P ) but there was a guy on here considering reapplying due to "underperforming" with a UVA full-ride (but no Harvard, columbia, or money any where else). Don't be this guy. T14 full-ride is one of the absolute best outcomes and cannot be considered underperforming under any reasonable definition.

Focus on what you get, not what you don't. It's the only thing that matters, and it will almost assuredly be an incredible outcome with your numbers. Good luck!

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby cotiger » Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:03 am

Lavitz wrote:
cotiger wrote:
Lavitz wrote:Turned out to be a good outcome though, and I can tell you that someone with the kind of numbers you mentioned will almost certainly still get big money at the lower T14--softs or no softs.


Which is really pretty much the ideal, anyway.

Tough to call essentially a full-ride from a T14 "underperforming" lol

That's why I said it was still a good outcome. Harvard and the others basically just saved mè a ton of money by rejecting me, and I'm a big advocate of taking the $$$ and running. But everyone thought I was an auto-admit, and my lone red dot really stood out in the LSN graphs. Random 0Ls used to message me and ask what went wrong. Objectively speaking, I think it's fair to say you underperformed your cycle as a whole when you can't get into Columbia when you're above both 75ths, etc.


Meh, if you get 120k from NYU, it doesn't really matter if you get 90k from Columbia or you get rejected. If you get a Duke full-ride, does it really change your cycle if Harvard rejects you? I guess it feels better to have everyone offer you nice things, but unless you don't care about money, IMO you've had the same cycle. I certainly don't feel any differently about the result of my cycle because people offered me things that I turned down.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby Lavitz » Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:39 am

cotiger wrote:Meh, if you get 120k from NYU, it doesn't really matter if you get 90k from Columbia or you get rejected. If you get a Duke full-ride, does it really change your cycle if Harvard rejects you? I guess it feels better to have everyone offer you nice things, but unless you don't care about money, IMO you've had the same cycle. I certainly don't feel any differently about the result of my cycle because people offered me things that I turned down.

I mean, I agree with everything you've said except we have a disagreement mostly about semantics. I'd call a cycle "underperforming your numbers" where you did not get the same options you'd expect from someone with your numbers.

But I do also think there can be a material difference at times. If you have the numbers for a Hamilton, other people with slightly lower numbers got Hamiltons, you don't even get in because your softs were lame, then you go to Cornell with a Dean's, then yes, I'd say that matters because I'd take the Hamilton any day of the week. And you're assuming that a full ride at Cornell (which is never completely a full-ride btw) is just as good as, say, a Mordecai at Duke. But if you want to practice in NC for some reason (or heck if you just prefer Duke to Cornell), you'd much rather have the full-ride at Duke, which you may not get if you underperform, which is what OP is worried about. IME, there's a certain threshold of softs for the Mordecai or Darrow. High numbers aren't enough. I just lucked out in the sense that I got the 150K at the lower T14 I would've preferred. And hey, maybe you really don't care about money because you have rich parents and therefore not getting HYS is kind of a big deal because you would've taken it.

Practically speaking, yes, it won't matter if you don't take those options, but I may have taken options other people with my numbers got. I feel it's always better to have more options than less. You say you wouldn't feel any differently about your cycle if you didn't have options you didn't take, but what if you didn't have the option you did take? What if that school offered you less money than if you had better softs? That's what OP is concerned about. Just because something's a great outcome doesn't mean it's the expected outcome for your numbers. So yes, I'd define "underperforming" more broadly.

But of course, I agree with you that "underperforming" with a 3.9/175 is still going to net a great outcome. It just may not be HYS / Hamilton/Ruby/Vanderbilt even though you may have gotten it with better softs/UG/WE/whatever. Completely agree that anyone with a 3.9/175 shouldn't be worried if they're just looking for any T-14 full-ride though, because they're almost guaranteed to get it or at least something close. Full-rides aren't predictable, so I guess if you don't care which T-14 it is, it doesn't matter as long as you get one. You're still going to have very good options with a 3.9/175.

My bigger concern after my cycle was whether underperforming meant that I had to worry about my resume at OCI too. Fortunately, so far it doesn't look like I have to worry, but that may be because I've fixed the weaknesses in my resume.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby cotiger » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:05 am

Yeah, for sure I was being simplistic. Like, if your only viable option is a full ride to UVA/Cornell, but living in rural Virginia/NY is totally unappealing to you bc of personality or SO, then you simultaneously got an incredible outcome and totally suboptimal. And at a lesser extreme, it's nice to feel the level of control to comes from choosing between multiple viable offers. I get that.

I'm really just pushing back against a feeling of entitlement (not from you, btw) that I see on here fairly frequently wrt to admissions decisions and numbers. Case in point, there's a KJD thread right below this asking if it's even worth it to apply outside t6 bc it's pretty certain that he gets ccn full ride, right? Then those people cry underperformance when they "only" get a butler and a Harvard acceptance.

Part of that, of course, is being on tls/lsn: hearing about how numbers are 95% of the process and then seeing all the people who are getting ccn full rides makes people think that that is what you should expect when you have those numbers. But in reality, tls/lsn are the strivers of the strivers -- ccn big money is tough to get, regardless of numbers. Even t14 full-rides are super difficult: there were like 80 mordecai finalists this year, not all of whom were then offered.

So when I see people who are getting six-figures to nyu, butlers, Harvard acceptances, t14 full rides, etc talking about underperforming or YP instead of talking about how awesome their results were, I just have to shake my head.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby RZ5646 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:46 am

So I guess the takeaway is that people with weak softs do underperform, but since you have 14 chances at a great outcome it's not that bad. At least a couple top schools will bite and give you an offer you'll be happy with.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby Lavitz » Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:52 am

Agreed with pretty much all of the above.
cotiger wrote:So when I see people who are getting six-figures to nyu, butlers, Harvard acceptances, t14 full rides, etc talking about underperforming or YP instead of talking about how awesome their results were, I just have to shake my head.

Sure, but there's a difference between talking about it and complaining about it. I don't think I've ever complained about my outcome on here and I've always tried to be positive about it. But ITT, I'm assuming OP's question boils down to "will a complete and utter lack of softs hurt someone's chances at HYS and big scholarships," and my objective response would be "yeah, maybe a little." If the question is "will someone with a 3.9/175 have good options regardless," then my response would be "yeah, sure."

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby PotenC » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:38 pm

For what it's worth, I posted in this thread because of this.

RZ5646 wrote:Does anyone here have both a meager resume and an acceptance letter from HYS? Or a big scholarship offer that lent some excitement to your bland, scholarly, K-JD life?


I do not think I underperformed my numbers. This is me:

RZ5646 wrote:
  • Hypothetical: An applicant has very high stats (3.9+, 175+), but otherwise he's totally average, maybe even boring. He's a K-JD. Middle-class white male from a T100 T200 undergrad. He has a part time job and participates in a couple campus organizations, but otherwise he divides his time between drinking and studying. Maybe he has an internship or an honors thesis, and let's throw in a double major as well.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby cotiger » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:52 pm

Lavitz, I know you've never complained about your outcome.

Hieroglyphic, fair enough.

But the a/d/w threads and c/o 2017 are full of people MAF about schools gyping them out of what they "deserve", especially the lol factory of the "I'm so awesome; that WL must've been YP". I think it's partially derived from how much we hype the numbers as being almost solely determinative of outcomes. They're by far the largest factor, but there's still a lot more that goes into it.

As for the op, those numbers give you a shot anywhere, with the possibility of full rides anywhere too. Craft a bomb PS, get good LOR, and no one will care what school you went to. Just remember that those Lsn profiles tend to be the striveriest of strivers, with a positive selection bias to boot. They're possibilities, not a baseline.

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RZ5646

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby RZ5646 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:13 pm

Cotiger, any advice about getting good LORs?
Last edited by RZ5646 on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Softs, HYS, and scholarships

Postby cotiger » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:29 pm

RZ5646 wrote:Cotiger, any advice about getting good LORs? I still have another year, but I really haven't built any relationships with professors yet. I go to a big public research school, so I haven't had a lot of direct contact with tenured faculty, and even in seminars I don't talk much (I just don't have any questions or brilliant commentary that everyone needs to hear). I've been to office hours like once ever. Should I act confused or ask off topic questions just to show potential recommenders that I'm thinking and following along?


Dunno how helpful I can be with this. I went to a small LAC where I worked directly with both my advisors in addition to many small classes with them.

One thing to note is that the rank of the prof doesn't matter at all. So if you develop a relationship with a non-tenure track person, that's just as good.

The number one way to develop a relationship that would lead to a good LOR is to do a thesis. Then you have an advisor who you're working closely with, who can then talk about your passion/drive/insight/work ethic. It's also a good resume point in addition to being good for the soul (assuming there's something related to your major that you're passionate about..).



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