Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

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apb10
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Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby apb10 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:35 pm

Looking over the release of the newest LST reports, some regional schools dropped, sometimes even 10%. Does this make them no longer good schools to attend, even for free?

I'm still deciding between Wake Forest and Arizona State, both with full rides. Are they poor choices now given that their employment rate fell?

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SFrost
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby SFrost » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:35 pm

Those are very different regions. The question you should be asking:
1) Do you want to work in this region? In this case it's either Arizona or NC/VA/DC.
2) Will you be able to accept the debt-financed cost of living if you end up not getting a legal job? If your fall back position is retail or coffee shop, you need to make a risk assessment based on how likely you are to outcompete the bottom quartile of students.
3) Are you ok locking yourself out of big law, academia, and federal clerking? If you're not interested in those categories of employment then it's not a concern.

ASU and Wake are both fine schools. Nobody here can tell you if it's right for you, though, and some arbitrary internet ranking shouldn't dictate your decision, either; not when it's based on easily accessible data that you can interpret yourself.

apb10
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby apb10 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:39 pm

I want to go to Wake Forest. I won't have any debt from cost of living/cost of attending. I'll graduate debt free. I'm ok with the slim shot of big law for that reason.

I just want to make sure that it's not a bad choice given the employment rate dropped for the class of 2013 where in other regional schools it seemed to be increasing.

In other words, I want to confirm it is still a solid school to attend despite the recent LST reports.

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SFrost
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby SFrost » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:51 pm

apb10 wrote:I want to go to Wake Forest. I won't have any debt from cost of living/cost of attending. I'll graduate debt free. I'm ok with the slim shot of big law for that reason.

I just want to make sure that it's not a bad choice given the employment rate dropped for the class of 2013 where in other regional schools it seemed to be increasing.

In other words, I want to confirm it is still a solid school to attend despite the recent LST reports.


I guess like any region it's saturated with other schools. UNC is pretty big in the immediate area (not even mentioning Duke ...) and going north you've got UVA, W&M, GWU to fight with in Virginia. DC is barely worth mentioning. My impression is that most people know Wake and employers probably respect it as a solid school, but you're pretty far from major markets and there's a lot of regional competition. If you go and fall significantly below median you probably won't have a great outcome. If you go and graduate a star, you'll probably do quite well. Point is this isn't a TTT. Plenty of people are well employed from there.

How well do you self judge is maybe a better question?

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phillywc
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby phillywc » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:49 pm

Do you have ties to the area? Or are you just dropping in cause you got a full ride?

Nomo
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby Nomo » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:10 pm

The truth about Wake Forest is that you aren't just competing with the UNC, Duke, and the top regional schools in Virginia. Campbell students are competing for the same job, and their job prospects really aren't much different from that of a Wake Forest grad. And NCCU, Elon, and the Charlotte School of law might not be great schools but they do have students with connections to practicing attorneys in NC and obviously they do have students in the top 20% with law review. Its a flooded market. NC shouldn't have 7 law schools.

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withoutapaddle
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby withoutapaddle » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:56 pm

I'm from NC and I can tell you the residents here treat UNC - Chapel Hill like it's Harvard

It's kinda funny because according to rankings UNC- Chapel Hill is the third ranked school to Duke and Wake

apb10
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby apb10 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:03 pm

phillywc wrote:Do you have ties to the area? Or are you just dropping in cause you got a full ride?


Don't have ties but it's an area I would like to work, especially near the capital.

I would hope, too, that because of the spread out alumni base and the fact so many leave NC to practice that I would have a chance of going to another state if needed be.

BigZuck
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby BigZuck » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:12 pm

apb10 wrote:
phillywc wrote:Do you have ties to the area? Or are you just dropping in cause you got a full ride?


Don't have ties but it's an area I would like to work, especially near the capital.

I would hope, too, that because of the spread out alumni base and the fact so many leave NC to practice that I would have a chance of going to another state if needed be.


I think you need to either go to a regional school where you have ties or go to a national school if you want some measure of portability.

I don't know if NC is as tie conscious as some other southern markets but that's not a gamble I would stake 3 years of my life and my parent's money on.

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cron1834
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby cron1834 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:45 pm

One thing to note - I would be more interested in a 3 year average than a 1-year drop. Especially at a school that only graduates about 160 students each year.

With that said, WFU was also in the mid-50s for CO'11. There are just too many schools in NC - they don't need 7. Two of those TTTs should close.

ETA - North Carolina Central has a 14.8% LST score :shock: :shock: Not a typo?! 145 median. SMH ...

ETA Part II - ONE student got a Biglaw job. That dude must be one hell of an interview ...
Last edited by cron1834 on Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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withoutapaddle
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby withoutapaddle » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:47 pm

Villanova reported a 3.5 GPA and a 157 LSAT median

I really don't think that GPA is accurate but I could be wrong

http://villanova.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1314

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AT9
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby AT9 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:27 pm

cron1834 wrote:One thing to note - I would be more interested in a 3 year average than a 1-year drop. Especially at a school that only graduates about 160 students each year.

With that said, WFU was also in the mid-50s for CO'11. There are just too many schools in NC - they don't need 7. Two of those TTTs should close.

ETA - North Carolina Central has a 14.8% LST score :shock: :shock: Not a typo?! 145 median. SMH ...

ETA Part II - ONE student got a Biglaw job. That dude must be one hell of an interview ...


I saw that too :shock: . That has to be the lowest percentage in the country, no?

OP: I'm kind of in the same boat. I withdrew my apps at other schools and was totally ready to head to Wake with my near full ride. Now I'm a little nervous. But, I think it's important not to overreact. Keep in mind that the numbers were very similar in 2011 as cron mentioned and Wake's not considered a TTT dump today.

Also, this was the biggest class (nationwide) EVER. I read that there were 52,000 entering 1Ls and like 46,000 graduates in the class of '13. In the class of 2016, there are "only" about 39,000 entering 1Ls, and there will be fewer graduates. Since our class will probably be smaller, we're looking at, what, 10,000 less grads in our 2017 class than '13? If Wake can weather these turbulent few years, which they appear to be doing, then I doubt they'll be much worse off 3 years from now. So if you won't have much debt and want to work in the region, I say go for it. I'm probably being too optimistic for TLS and for my own good, but if the legal market even remains stagnant for the next three years, the picture should be substantially improved for us (though obviously far from perfect).

*I quoted those numbers from the LST article by memory, so they may not be totally accurate.

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phillywc
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby phillywc » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:47 am

apb10 wrote:
phillywc wrote:Do you have ties to the area? Or are you just dropping in cause you got a full ride?


Don't have ties but it's an area I would like to work, especially near the capital.

I would hope, too, that because of the spread out alumni base and the fact so many leave NC to practice that I would have a chance of going to another state if needed be.

Don't go. You don't have ties and don't seem deadset on the area. You wouldn't have a great shot of going to another state. Even with a full ride, I wouldn't gamble on that.

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cron1834
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby cron1834 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:14 am

AT9 wrote:
cron1834 wrote:One thing to note - I would be more interested in a 3 year average than a 1-year drop. Especially at a school that only graduates about 160 students each year.

With that said, WFU was also in the mid-50s for CO'11. There are just too many schools in NC - they don't need 7. Two of those TTTs should close.

ETA - North Carolina Central has a 14.8% LST score :shock: :shock: Not a typo?! 145 median. SMH ...

ETA Part II - ONE student got a Biglaw job. That dude must be one hell of an interview ...


I saw that too :shock: . That has to be the lowest percentage in the country, no?

OP: I'm kind of in the same boat. I withdrew my apps at other schools and was totally ready to head to Wake with my near full ride. Now I'm a little nervous. But, I think it's important not to overreact. Keep in mind that the numbers were very similar in 2011 as cron mentioned and Wake's not considered a TTT dump today.

Also, this was the biggest class (nationwide) EVER. I read that there were 52,000 entering 1Ls and like 46,000 graduates in the class of '13. In the class of 2016, there are "only" about 39,000 entering 1Ls, and there will be fewer graduates. Since our class will probably be smaller, we're looking at, what, 10,000 less grads in our 2017 class than '13? If Wake can weather these turbulent few years, which they appear to be doing, then I doubt they'll be much worse off 3 years from now. So if you won't have much debt and want to work in the region, I say go for it. I'm probably being too optimistic for TLS and for my own good, but if the legal market even remains stagnant for the next three years, the picture should be substantially improved for us (though obviously far from perfect).

*I quoted those numbers from the LST article by memory, so they may not be totally accurate.


I would be fucking flabbergasted if some place came in lower than 14.8. How is that even possible?

All the same, with no ties to NC, this is a non-issue. Don't go with no connection to NC, unless Duke is an option.

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dd235
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby dd235 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:27 am

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... c-pr/2013/

4.2% from our dear friends in Puerto Rico

sighsigh
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby sighsigh » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:33 am

cron1834 wrote:ETA Part II - ONE student got a Biglaw job. That dude must be one hell of an interview ...

At this level of school that very likely doesn't mean an associate position at a white-shoe firm. It's probably a staff attorney position, or an associate position at a quasi-biglaw firm like WEMED (huge ID mill that pays like 65k to start). However, I'd say both are still excellent outcomes for this level of school.

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cron1834
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby cron1834 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:37 am

dd235 wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/catholic-pr/2013/

4.2% from our dear friends in Puerto Rico


"LOL" would seem like a harsh response here. PR is possibly in its own category ... but, still, LOL.

800lb
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby 800lb » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:28 am

I'm a 3L at ASU. It's kind of hard to tell how the job market is shaking out, as the Phoenix economy is bouncing up and down.
Pluses: ASU is now the highest ranking school feeding into the Mountain West, and Utah and Colorado are on the UBE with Arizona (which is really really helpful). So Phoenix is a big town, Denver is a big town, and Salt Lake is a growing town, and you'll make connections with folks from all three places if you choose to come here. It seems like people move between those states pretty frequently (more so, it seems, than between states in other regions), so while the three metro areas combined still don't equal LA or New York, at least you have some varied options. It's beautiful here from the end of October to the beginning of April.
Minuses: The Phoenix market is kind of a roller coaster as the Phoenix economy is kind of a roller coaster. ASU seems to take the jobs first as they come up, but the amount of jobs seems to vary wildly. COL isn't bad here, though it's on the rise in downtown, and the school is moving downtown next year. It gets really fucking hot here in the summer, and your best shot at anything, even with the other states thrown in, is to stay here. It was 97 today. If you want to be a prosecutor, or work in government, you had best be of a conservative persuasion. Joe Arpaio would be your Sheriff.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:06 pm

800lb wrote:I'm a 3L at ASU. It's kind of hard to tell how the job market is shaking out, as the Phoenix economy is bouncing up and down.
Pluses: ASU is now the highest ranking school feeding into the Mountain West, and Utah and Colorado are on the UBE with Arizona (which is really really helpful). So Phoenix is a big town, Denver is a big town, and Salt Lake is a growing town, and you'll make connections with folks from all three places if you choose to come here. It seems like people move between those states pretty frequently (more so, it seems, than between states in other regions), so while the three metro areas combined still don't equal LA or New York, at least you have some varied options. It's beautiful here from the end of October to the beginning of April.
Minuses: The Phoenix market is kind of a roller coaster as the Phoenix economy is kind of a roller coaster. ASU seems to take the jobs first as they come up, but the amount of jobs seems to vary wildly. COL isn't bad here, though it's on the rise in downtown, and the school is moving downtown next year. It gets really fucking hot here in the summer, and your best shot at anything, even with the other states thrown in, is to stay here. It was 97 today. If you want to be a prosecutor, or work in government, you had best be of a conservative persuasion. Joe Arpaio would be your Sheriff.


Arizona isn't even in the mountain west, and graduates from ASU don't "move around" the mountain west. Also LOL about rankings. In Utah, everyone is going to think BYU and U of Utah are way better than ASU…. Some won't even know ASU is ranked in the top 100 law schools, no I'm not kidding.

OP go to the school in the state where you want to practice.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby jenesaislaw » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:10 am

What concerns me is that Wake increased class size by 54 students this past year, a 43% increase, to 179. Combine that with the increase (relative to 2010) in students at other NC schools, and there's looking to continue to be way too many grads for a number of years more.

That said, free is free. I don't think Wake is in the category of schools you should turn down for free, assuming your opportunity costs are fairly low. Just don't go to Wake expecting to leave the region or expecting to work at a large firm. Both could happen, but both are the exception.

n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:25 am

dd235 wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/catholic-pr/2013/

4.2% from our dear friends in Puerto Rico

At least they are willing to reduce enrollment to hold their 135 median...

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Regional Schools LST Score Dropping

Postby jenesaislaw » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:35 pm

n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t wrote:
dd235 wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/catholic-pr/2013/

4.2% from our dear friends in Puerto Rico

At least they are willing to reduce enrollment to hold their 135 median...


Keep in mind many are ESL. The LSAT is all-but required for ABA approval.




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