Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

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Milloy
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Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby Milloy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:27 pm

I'm an incoming 1L at one of Harvard, Stanford or Penn and am interested in applying to the JD/MBA program during my 1L year. I have two years of decent work experience (BB banking / MBB consulting) and a GMAT and GPA above median for each school. I feel like my work experience right now probably isn't enough to get me into one of those schools if I applied to attend this fall, especially considering how competitive my bucket is.

I was wondering if anyone could shed some light as to what kind of shot I would have if I applied to Harvard/Stanford/Wharton as a 1L. Would that help me gain admission compared to applying separately? I'm interested in working in distressed debt investing after I graduate, which is why I'm considering the dual degree.

On a broader scale, what are people's thoughts regarding a JD/MBA from the above schools. From what I've seen, the consensus is that it's a bad idea at most schools as one degree typically isn't applicable to whatever the applicant ends up doing and the additional degree adds no value while costing $60k and a year or two of salary. Does this still hold true at the very top schools though? Would the opportunities provided by a dual degree from Harvard or Stanford outweigh the additional costs given the wider network and pull of both law schools and business schools?

rad lulz
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby rad lulz » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:29 pm

Well what do you want to do with it

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cesium
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby cesium » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:13 pm

Like the guy above said, it depend on what you plan to do with the dual degree. If you plan to work as an associate in a law firm, then the MBA is a complete waste of time and money. First of all, an MBA will not help you get a job at a law firm; it wouldn't even be a "plus" that would put you over the top in a crowded field. (Some additional degrees, such a PhD in science, would boost your employment prospects in areas like patent law, but an MBA is not one of them.)

The MBA may be marginally useful once you make partner and are involved in the business and management side of things, but all the skills you learn in an MBA program you can learn on the job as a rising attorney. The one advantage I could see for a law firm partner is the connections you'd make in an MBA program (which is really the main benefit of attending a B-school like Harvard or Wharton anyway). Depending on the area of law you practice, those connections might bring you big-name clients. However, an ambitious associate / young partner could easily build connections in the business world (and in a more targeted manner) without the MBA, so it's unclear to me whether the benefits of the MBA outweigh the costs.

If you plan to go into a business-related career, it's also unclear. As you say, it is possible that you would not have been able to get into a top business school without being a 1L first, in which case you could view the JD as your "work experience" and a "necessary stepping stone" toward your MBA.

However, there are some niche industries and positions out there where a JD/MBA would be ideally suitable. I'd highly consider checking those out and seeing if they're appropriate for you.

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thewaves
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby thewaves » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:21 pm

Not worth it except maybe a 3 year program. Penn is the only school of the three to offer that, and I think it's too late to apply.

tiltedwindmill
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby tiltedwindmill » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:44 am

I have heard the JD/MBA is good if you are interested in working for a restructuring IB, but beyond I think that hiring would be idiosyncratic and very well may be not worth direct and opportunity cost of the degree.

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Hipster but Athletic
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby Hipster but Athletic » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:51 am

apparently it's good for sports management

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:32 pm

thewaves wrote:Not worth it except maybe a 3 year program. Penn is the only school of the three to offer that, and I think it's too late to apply.

Columbia also has a three year program and you can apply for it during 1L. I think Penn works the same way.

Personally I didn't see it being worth the extra $60k in tuition but I could see it making sense for the right goals and your debt situation otherwise.

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iamgeorgebush
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby iamgeorgebush » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:36 pm

cesium wrote:Like the guy above said, it depend on what you plan to do with the dual degree. If you plan to work as an associate in a law firm, then the MBA is a complete waste of time and money. First of all, an MBA will not help you get a job at a law firm; it wouldn't even be a "plus" that would put you over the top in a crowded field. (Some additional degrees, such a PhD in science, would boost your employment prospects in areas like patent law, but an MBA is not one of them.)

The MBA may be marginally useful once you make partner and are involved in the business and management side of things, but all the skills you learn in an MBA program you can learn on the job as a rising attorney. The one advantage I could see for a law firm partner is the connections you'd make in an MBA program (which is really the main benefit of attending a B-school like Harvard or Wharton anyway). Depending on the area of law you practice, those connections might bring you big-name clients. However, an ambitious associate / young partner could easily build connections in the business world (and in a more targeted manner) without the MBA, so it's unclear to me whether the benefits of the MBA outweigh the costs.

If you plan to go into a business-related career, it's also unclear. As you say, it is possible that you would not have been able to get into a top business school without being a 1L first, in which case you could view the JD as your "work experience" and a "necessary stepping stone" toward your MBA.

However, there are some niche industries and positions out there where a JD/MBA would be ideally suitable. I'd highly consider checking those out and seeing if they're appropriate for you.

awfully sure about all of this for a 0L

Skump
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby Skump » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:58 am

On a broader scale, what are people's thoughts regarding a JD/MBA from the above schools.


JD/MBAs in general are a waste of time and money. Competence in both law and business is gained through on the ground training, and so the value in these degrees is largely exhausted by their signaling function. By extension, your additional degree won't confer any quantifiable value beyond whatever practical experience you actually accumulate over the course of your career. People seek out expert opinion. No one is going to take an executive's word for gospel on a compliance issue because some moons ago he went to law school. No one is going to Snidely McDouchebag, Esq. for advice on derivative strategy because he slept through structured finance at Wharton.

TL;DR: get the degree that gives you access to the work you actually want to do.

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ratfukr
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby ratfukr » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:47 am

did nobody read that OP wanted 2 work in distressed debt?

e: tbf OP this is more of a WSO question http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/j ... e-andor-rx (there are more)
conceptually maybe consider it analogous 2 like mba/phd if u were doing sector-specific PE/VC right? except u would kno bankruptcy/workouts, not biotech - idk
i kno fuck all about how hiring works at associate levels & up in top restructuring / distressed practices tho - but obvi answers abt law firms should b disregarded also

CanadianWolf
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:08 pm

Contact the placement offices at your schools (law & business) to see how recent dual degree holders have fared. Of course, it's better to have a particular career path/specialty in mind before starting a joint degree program in order to tailor your course choices & to target prospective employers.Nevertheless, if affordable in your situation, dual degrees from any of these three schools is likely to open additional doors.

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iamgeorgebush
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby iamgeorgebush » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:33 pm

op you should ask not tls but people working in the field you want to work in

hth

luckystar84
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby luckystar84 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:05 am

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Last edited by luckystar84 on Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ratfukr
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby ratfukr » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:54 am

egregious pro-JPM trolling

e: also none of those except blackstone are DD-related & isn't schwarzman on the record saying a JD would have been useful?
OP here are the restructuring league tables through 9/13 if u want 2 do that type of search
this still obv doesn't cover cases like smaller investment funds & the like but that's of course idiosyncratic careering anyway
http://dmi.thomsonreuters.com/Content/F ... Review.pdf

e2: the idea that a JD would b "pretty much worthless" in distressed debt is dumb as fuck i can't even

LauraS
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby LauraS » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:23 am

If you plan on working in big law firms, investment banks, etc., you'll be making so much money that the cost of an extra year of school probably shouldn't be a significant consideration for you, unless you have special circumstances.

I don't know about the distressed debt question, but I'd guess the lifetime value of the networking you'd do at B-School would be worth an extra year of school.

I was an associate at a big NYC law firm for a few years. I imagine asking the partners I knew what they'd do if they were given the chance to go back in time and get a JD/MBA for the extra cost of a year's tuition/fees/living expenses. I think a lot of them would jump at the opportunity.

Networking in B-School is natural and easy. You're friends with people. You party with them. Nothing you do after school is like that.

Yes, as a lawyer you can hustle and meet people on your own, but it takes a lot more effort (when you're exhausted and stressed from all the work you're doing) and it's not so natural, unless you're a networking pro. And I think it would be almost impossible on your own to meet the caliber of people you'd be hanging out with effortlessly in B-School.

If you know any partners in law firms or people high up in companies, you may want to ask them what they think of the lifetime value of a JD/MBA. Your undergrad alumni network could probably hook you up with some of these folks who'd be willing to do informational interviews with you. (A nice way to do some extra networking.) HTH

luckystar84
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby luckystar84 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:19 pm

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ratfukr
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby ratfukr » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:27 pm

luckystar84 do u kno what distressed debt is?

luckystar84
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby luckystar84 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:44 pm

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patogordo
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby patogordo » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:52 pm

is an LMT worth it for destressed debt?

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ratfukr
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby ratfukr » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:02 pm

luckystar84 wrote:
ratfukr wrote:luckystar84 do u kno what distressed debt is?


lol at a board of 0Ls knowing what distressed debt is. but enlighten me as to the following: if a JD is useless for the actual "practice of the raw," how is it supposed to help you do DD?

well if you had the slightest fucking idea what u were talking abt b4 spouting off 2 ppl re their major life decisions it would b obvious how useful a JD would b in DD
but just do look at linkedin profiles of ppl who work at a financial supermarket w a balance sheet the size of 15% of GDP & then puke up irrelevant platitudes sounds cr

e: jfc "if ur we is just tfa/pc" OP explicitly said 2yr BB IB/MBB luckystar84 u should b perma'd

luckystar84
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby luckystar84 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:35 pm

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ratfukr
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby ratfukr » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:05 pm

luckystar84 wrote:
ratfukr wrote:
luckystar84 wrote:
ratfukr wrote:luckystar84 do u kno what distressed debt is?


lol at a board of 0Ls knowing what distressed debt is. but enlighten me as to the following: if a JD is useless for the actual "practice of the raw," how is it supposed to help you do DD?

well if you had the slightest fucking idea what u were talking abt b4 spouting off 2 ppl re their major life decisions it would b obvious how useful a JD would b in DD
but just do look at linkedin profiles of ppl who work at a financial supermarket w a balance sheet the size of 15% of GDP & then puke up irrelevant platitudes sounds cr

e: jfc "if ur we is just tfa/pc" OP explicitly said 2yr BB IB/MBB luckystar84 u should b perma'd


again, I just threw JPM in there as an example of a major H/S MBA taker. then you opened one of your posts with "ljl JPM," (which itself had nothing to do with anything) and I just said that JPM is not that bad if you're coming from TFA/PC. I never said "OP, just do H/S MBA-->JPM, that's all you can get"

but yes, you're saying a JD helps you do the DD job, and I'm having trouble seeing how a degree that doesn't help you do the job it's designed for can have greater utility in a non-JD required (or even JD-advantage) field. if you'd explain that and share your vast wealth of knowledge on the DD scene, that'd be more helpful to the OP than just "ljl JPM"

(literally doesn't know what distressed debt is)

luckystar84
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby luckystar84 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:11 pm

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patogordo
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby patogordo » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:17 pm

stop slapfighting and laugh at my destressed debt joke

luckystar84
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Re: Thoughts on JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford or Penn?

Postby luckystar84 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:21 pm

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