St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

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john1990
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby john1990 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:46 am

Clearly wrote:
john1990 wrote:American University has worse job prospects despite being ranked higher. LST puts them at just 39% for 2012. I would go for St. John's. If you don't place in the top 40% you could always drop out after the first year. If you are given a full schollarship it is reasonable to belive that you have better numbers than the rest of the class and are of a greater intellectual ability. You beat them for four years you should be able to beat them for 3 more. The one thing is law school is different than undergrad in that the material is different so it has happened that successful undergraduate students struggle but that is rare. I wouldn't pass up a full ride at St. Johns

Your shtick isn't funny. This is some uniformed persons real life you're messing with.


Well even though TLS is against me, evn though it is a full ride, about 99% of the rest of the world would agree with me

Bane75
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby Bane75 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:48 am

zhenders wrote:OP, no lie -- I'm embarrassed for you reading your posts. You can't imagine how incredibly arrogant, childish, uninformed and ridiculous you sound. Why in the HELL did you create this post asking for advice if all you are going to do is tell everyone what you "happen to believe" (which, by the way, is every bit as idiotic as if you happened to believe in fairies).

I hope you go to either of these schools. Go, please. It is clear that you are better-informed than any of us dumbasses trying to keep you from ruining your life. Just do us all a favor and pop back on here in four years. You have full permission from me (and probably everyone else) to rub your biglaw job in our faces when you get it after all of your hard work and effort pays off.

I just can't WAIT for all of us haters to be put in our place, can you?



First off you sound like and by all accounts are, a pretentious douchebag. I posted this question to see which option people would pick. I thought it would be assumed that i intend on going to law school. The people i was trying to reach were ones who would tell me which option was better. I received one response answering my question. The only answer i took issue with was the one that suggested if BC and BU were my best options, then i shouldn't go to law school. I think that's ridiculous. If the fact that i refuse to enter law school believing I'm going to fail means i'm arrogant and childish then so be it. I have looked at all the job prospects. If you go by statistics of getting a Big Law job, then law school is not a good idea outside of the T14. That's the bottom line. Has it ever occurred to you that some people enjoy the topic of law and want to go to law school even if the chances at a top job are low? I asked which you guys would pick of the two options. Some answers i received were oozing with arrogance and shock at how i could even consider attending a law school that is outside of the Top 14. I was polite and observant to all the people who responded. I never said i was going to "outwork" everyone nor did i claim to expect a 4.0. All i said was that i think it's wrong to enter into such a big commitment expecting failure. I'm an adult making an informed decision about my future. The fact that you need to take time out of your day to hide behind a keyboard and denigrate someone interested in accepting a full scholarship to a law school is pathetic. I'll be in touch in four years. To the reasonable people who chimed in like gentlemen i appreciate your tips and concern.

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PepperJack
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby PepperJack » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:07 am

No one is saying that it's impossible to succeed from these schools; that is a strawman's argument. What they're saying is the odds of getting that firm job are literally under 10%, which is worse than most casino games. Namely, if you just bet money you'd statistically have a much better shot of getting a 100k in vegas than your legal career coming from these schools. If the best you can get is a 155ish after f/t studying for months, the odds of doing well in law school will be low. You'd prob be in better shape if you just took it cold because if you turned it on in LS, maybe you would be able to make really good arguments. Right now, St. John's is definitely the better option. Because both schools give you over 50% of being screwed, you really should plan for where failure is the most manageable. At neither of these schools will the degree's name carry you through your career so why pay 200k for it? If you can't be above median at St. John's you prob shouldn't be a lawyer so it's the best bet.

Bane75
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby Bane75 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:09 am

jchiles wrote:Not normally one to wade in on things like this but thanks to a boring super bowl I'll bite. OP, I just finished my first semester of law school and people with this type of attitude, at least in my section, were almost all at or below median in our class (people are strangely open about this type of info here). That does not mean they do not know the law, nor does it speak to their intelligence, ability to be a lawyer, etc., but it is important when you have GPA-sensitive scholarships and job positions you are relying on to justify your decision to go to a school.


Characterizing these schools as tire fires is probably not going to dissuade you from going, which is fine, but realize that for every person who enters law school thinking "I'll work harder and am inherently more capable than my classmates" there is a person who is completely shocked as to how they got an A in Torts or Civ Pro. Working hard and being smart are necessary to succeeding 1L year, but thinking you can out-grind your classmates and end up in contention for a big law despite the odds is very dangerous. Sorry for not addressing your question directly here, but you have to understand that every ambitious law student is thinking exactly the same as you are when they arrive on day one.



You make some great points there and i appreciate that. All i meant in my previous posts was that while being realistic, i am going to law school with the intent on doing well and i am prepared to work extremely hard at it. I'm not expecting A's just because i plan on working hard or because i think i can handle it intellectually. That's foolish. I'm sorry if that rubs people the wrong way. I'm fully aware that if i do not do well it will be very difficult to find a job in the legal field. I have done my research and am not some recent college graduate wandering around looking for the next step in life. This is what i want to do and i expect to do a good job. Although i'm aware that statistics are against my expectations, and i am fully aware of the risks, i still want to attend law school. Thanks again for your post. PS Sad night for Peyton fans.

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PepperJack
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby PepperJack » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:13 am

Bane75 wrote:
zhenders wrote:OP, no lie -- I'm embarrassed for you reading your posts. You can't imagine how incredibly arrogant, childish, uninformed and ridiculous you sound. Why in the HELL did you create this post asking for advice if all you are going to do is tell everyone what you "happen to believe" (which, by the way, is every bit as idiotic as if you happened to believe in fairies).

I hope you go to either of these schools. Go, please. It is clear that you are better-informed than any of us dumbasses trying to keep you from ruining your life. Just do us all a favor and pop back on here in four years. You have full permission from me (and probably everyone else) to rub your biglaw job in our faces when you get it after all of your hard work and effort pays off.

I just can't WAIT for all of us haters to be put in our place, can you?



First off you sound like and by all accounts are, a pretentious douchebag. I posted this question to see which option people would pick. I thought it would be assumed that i intend on going to law school. The people i was trying to reach were ones who would tell me which option was better. I received one response answering my question. The only answer i took issue with was the one that suggested if BC and BU were my best options, then i shouldn't go to law school. I think that's ridiculous. If the fact that i refuse to enter law school believing I'm going to fail means i'm arrogant and childish then so be it. I have looked at all the job prospects. If you go by statistics of getting a Big Law job, then law school is not a good idea outside of the T14. That's the bottom line. Has it ever occurred to you that some people enjoy the topic of law and want to go to law school even if the chances at a top job are low? I asked which you guys would pick of the two options. Some answers i received were oozing with arrogance and shock at how i could even consider attending a law school that is outside of the Top 14. I was polite and observant to all the people who responded. I never said i was going to "outwork" everyone nor did i claim to expect a 4.0. All i said was that i think it's wrong to enter into such a big commitment expecting failure. I'm an adult making an informed decision about my future. The fact that you need to take time out of your day to hide behind a keyboard and denigrate someone interested in accepting a full scholarship to a law school is pathetic. I'll be in touch in four years. To the reasonable people who chimed in like gentlemen i appreciate your tips and concern.

I think you're mistaking the issue. The issue is that you have to have close to a 4.0 from these places. It's not an issue that say 90% do well and 10% get shot as punishment, and you believe you'll be top 90%. It's the vice versa. Even if there's 50% job placement, that metric is kind of useless for anyone's purposes here. If you take an investment you must look at it not as which stock is 50% likely to be worth some money. If you buy at $250 a share, and sell it at $50 a share, yes you have some money, but it's a piss poor investment. Similarly, you must be concerned at your odds of paying back the investment. With 200k debt, you need a 100k job. The odds are under 10%. It's illegal so I don't encourage it, but statistically you're much better off just taking the money and betting on football, flying to Vegas, etc. This is the much better investment.

Bane75
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby Bane75 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:15 am

PepperJack wrote:No one is saying that it's impossible to succeed from these schools; that is a strawman's argument. What they're saying is the odds of getting that firm job are literally under 10%, which is worse than most casino games. Namely, if you just bet money you'd statistically have a much better shot of getting a 100k in vegas than your legal career coming from these schools. If the best you can get is a 155ish after f/t studying for months, the odds of doing well in law school will be low. You'd prob be in better shape if you just took it cold because if you turned it on in LS, maybe you would be able to make really good arguments. Right now, St. John's is definitely the better option. Because both schools give you over 50% of being screwed, you really should plan for where failure is the most manageable. At neither of these schools will the degree's name carry you through your career so why pay 200k for it? If you can't be above median at St. John's you prob shouldn't be a lawyer so it's the best bet.


These are just my first two schools i've heard from. SJU is the lowest ranked school i've applied and i did not score 155 ish on my LSAT. Also, their employment percentages are not less than 10%.

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PepperJack
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby PepperJack » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:40 am

Bane75 wrote:
PepperJack wrote:No one is saying that it's impossible to succeed from these schools; that is a strawman's argument. What they're saying is the odds of getting that firm job are literally under 10%, which is worse than most casino games. Namely, if you just bet money you'd statistically have a much better shot of getting a 100k in vegas than your legal career coming from these schools. If the best you can get is a 155ish after f/t studying for months, the odds of doing well in law school will be low. You'd prob be in better shape if you just took it cold because if you turned it on in LS, maybe you would be able to make really good arguments. Right now, St. John's is definitely the better option. Because both schools give you over 50% of being screwed, you really should plan for where failure is the most manageable. At neither of these schools will the degree's name carry you through your career so why pay 200k for it? If you can't be above median at St. John's you prob shouldn't be a lawyer so it's the best bet.


These are just my first two schools i've heard from. SJU is the lowest ranked school i've applied and i did not score 155 ish on my LSAT. Also, their employment percentages are not less than 10%.

You have great reading comprehension skills. Their large firm score is under 10%. If you doctor what percentages correspond to, you can strengthen your argument. For instance the weatherman says there's a 100% chance of snow today, but I think he's wrong because there's not a 100% chance that a man lands on the moon today.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:23 am

I'm pretty sure that when rad lulz said if those are the only schools you can get into don't go to law school, he meant St Johns and American, not BU and BC.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:24 am

Bane75 wrote: This is what i want to do and i expect to do a good job. Although i'm aware that statistics are against my expectations, and i am fully aware of the risks, i still want to attend law school. Thanks again for your post. PS Sad night for Peyton fans.


You have to understand that a lot of people have convinced themselves that they absolutely must start law school this year, even when there is no real reason why waiting a year means death. Keep in mind, this is your career we're talking about. Careers, in theory at least, last decades. If you can put yourself in a much better position to succeed over the next 20-30 years by waiting for one year, then it's obviously a smart move. Choosing not to do that just because you're impatient speaks to a lack of perspective and maturity.

I'm not saying this because I want to be a douche or because I want you to fail. I hope you get better offers and eventually have a solid, rewarding career. I just hope you don't end up shooting yourself in the foot right out of the gate.

Bane75
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby Bane75 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:51 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm pretty sure that when rad lulz said if those are the only schools you can get into don't go to law school, he meant St Johns and American, not BU and BC.


If that's the case then it was just a misunderstanding and i apologize. These aren't the only schools i can get into either. I was accepted to Brooklyn Law School today, for what it's worth. Still waiting on 10 more.

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jk148706
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby jk148706 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:25 pm

Neither. Retake, get a better option, or don't go.

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chuckbass
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby chuckbass » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:04 pm

Bane75 wrote:First off you sound like and by all accounts are, a pretentious douchebag. I posted this question to see which option people would pick. I thought it would be assumed that i intend on going to law school. The people i was trying to reach were ones who would tell me which option was better. I received one response answering my question. The only answer i took issue with was the one that suggested if BC and BU were my best options, then i shouldn't go to law school. I think that's ridiculous. If the fact that i refuse to enter law school believing I'm going to fail means i'm arrogant and childish then so be it. I have looked at all the job prospects. If you go by statistics of getting a Big Law job, then law school is not a good idea outside of the T14. That's the bottom line. Has it ever occurred to you that some people enjoy the topic of law and want to go to law school even if the chances at a top job are low? I asked which you guys would pick of the two options. Some answers i received were oozing with arrogance and shock at how i could even consider attending a law school that is outside of the Top 14. I was polite and observant to all the people who responded. I never said i was going to "outwork" everyone nor did i claim to expect a 4.0. All i said was that i think it's wrong to enter into such a big commitment expecting failure. I'm an adult making an informed decision about my future. The fact that you need to take time out of your day to hide behind a keyboard and denigrate someone interested in accepting a full scholarship to a law school is pathetic. I'll be in touch in four years. To the reasonable people who chimed in like gentlemen i appreciate your tips and concern.


If you have looked at all of the job prospects, you would know that even at the T14 a large amount of people find themselves unemployed/underemployed. This has nothing to do with elitism, this has to do with getting you a job that can pay back whatever debt that you take on. Even with a full-ride you still have significant COL and 60k will take a long time to service if you are jobless (the more likely option) or working a "good" job from these schools (which pay 40k).

There are a lot of things that I enjoy, but I don't pursue them as a career because it is simply unreasonable both monetarily and chance-wise. People aren't telling you not to go because you won't get a firm job, they're telling you because getting shitlaw isn't even likely.

Good luck with your informed decision. While LSAT scores aren't necessarily strongly correlated with law school performance, you will be taking exams in law school that determine your future. What if you don't do well on law school exams, just like with the LSAT? You'd be better served studying better, even if it takes you a year, because that one test can be more important than every law school test you take if it gets you into a good enough school.

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PepperJack
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby PepperJack » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:09 pm

It should also be said that there's nothing wrong with the people who don't get jobs from the t-14 schools. Most of them are brilliant, sociable, nice, etc. They'd probably succeed in most fields. The thing is that very few of us would make 160k without law school, but almost all of us would make 60k+. That's why it's sort of a zero sum game. I can't fathom who'd go to a school with top 10% big law when 1/2 of the lower t-14 is screwed.

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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:11 pm

Bane75 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm pretty sure that when rad lulz said if those are the only schools you can get into don't go to law school, he meant St Johns and American, not BU and BC.


If that's the case then it was just a misunderstanding and i apologize. These aren't the only schools i can get into either. I was accepted to Brooklyn Law School today, for what it's worth. Still waiting on 10 more.


I'll say it:

If your only two options are BU/BC and you have to pay more than about 100K to attend, then don't go to law school.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:33 pm

john1990 wrote:Well even though TLS is against me, evn though it is a full ride, about 99% of the rest of the world would agree with me


99% of the world knows nothing about law school/the legal market.

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Clearly
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby Clearly » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:41 pm

john1990 wrote:
Clearly wrote:
john1990 wrote:American University has worse job prospects despite being ranked higher. LST puts them at just 39% for 2012. I would go for St. John's. If you don't place in the top 40% you could always drop out after the first year. If you are given a full schollarship it is reasonable to belive that you have better numbers than the rest of the class and are of a greater intellectual ability. You beat them for four years you should be able to beat them for 3 more. The one thing is law school is different than undergrad in that the material is different so it has happened that successful undergraduate students struggle but that is rare. I wouldn't pass up a full ride at St. Johns

Your shtick isn't funny. This is some uniformed persons real life you're messing with.


Well even though TLS is against me, evn though it is a full ride, about 99% of the rest of the world would agree with me


My problem is you guaranteeing he'll succeed, and is of a "greater intellectual ability". That's fucking moronic, and it's going to give him a false hope that things will just work out. Clearly the better option here is the full ride, but the odds are he still gets screwed, even with the full ride because of the opportunity cost, scholly stips, and employment outcomes.

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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby Bane75 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:17 pm

Why does my test scores have to be low because i applied to SJU? Applying this logic to ANY law school admit outside of the T14 would make law school a non-starter. Only endeavor things in life whose average rate of success is over 50%. I'd be willing to make a friendly ( and by friendly i mean serious ) wager with one of you over my career prospects. I am not some asshole over-confident idiot who is in over his head. But i am also not a pessimistic miserable person wandering into law school because i saw an episode of Suits. If any of you gentlemen want to bet against my career prospects (which statistically would be a huge return on investment
) then just PM me. Competition is healthy people. Lighten up a bit.

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PepperJack
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby PepperJack » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:22 pm

Clearly wrote:
john1990 wrote:
Clearly wrote:
john1990 wrote:American University has worse job prospects despite being ranked higher. LST puts them at just 39% for 2012. I would go for St. John's. If you don't place in the top 40% you could always drop out after the first year. If you are given a full schollarship it is reasonable to belive that you have better numbers than the rest of the class and are of a greater intellectual ability. You beat them for four years you should be able to beat them for 3 more. The one thing is law school is different than undergrad in that the material is different so it has happened that successful undergraduate students struggle but that is rare. I wouldn't pass up a full ride at St. Johns

Your shtick isn't funny. This is some uniformed persons real life you're messing with.


Well even though TLS is against me, evn though it is a full ride, about 99% of the rest of the world would agree with me


My problem is you guaranteeing he'll succeed, and is of a "greater intellectual ability". That's fucking moronic, and it's going to give him a false hope that things will just work out. Clearly the better option here is the full ride, but the odds are he still gets screwed, even with the full ride because of the opportunity cost, scholly stips, and employment outcomes.

The assumption you have no control over your grades, and it's all randomness is really largely promulgated by 0L's. Just the fact that OP cares enough to seek out opinions means at these joke schools, s/he's likely to be above median. A lot of people at bad schools aren't going to try very hard in addition to not being very intelligent. The issue is a lot will, and there's some luck involved in being top of the class, and only top of the class will be in good shape. But with a full ride, IDK it's not a bad call. The person who goes to a t-14 doesn't become smarter or better at LS tests by virtue of going to the t-10. If it's SJU for free or Cornell at sticker, I don't think SJU is the bad call. I'm tempted to think median at Cornell would get top 25% at SJU, and wouldn't really be better off if they're paying sticker.

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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby californiauser » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:37 pm

Bane75 wrote:Why does my test scores have to be low because i applied to SJU? Applying this logic to ANY law school admit outside of the T14 would make law school a non-starter. Only endeavor things in life whose average rate of success is over 50%. I'd be willing to make a friendly ( and by friendly i mean serious ) wager with one of you over my career prospects. I am not some asshole over-confident idiot who is in over his head. But i am also not a pessimistic miserable person wandering into law school because i saw an episode of Suits. If any of you gentlemen want to bet against my career prospects (which statistically would be a huge return on investment
) then just PM me. Competition is healthy people. Lighten up a bit.


No, no one here is saying T14 or you're an idiot. When you want to practice in DC or NYC and actually have a realistic chance of paying off your enormous loans, then yeah, people say retake for T14. If you were from Nebraska or Wyoming and wanted to attend the state flagsip, then it would be an entirely different conversation.

The "I can't retake" bit doesn't fly around here. I retook the LSAT and sat out a year an now I'm in at a T10 law school when I would have been looking at crappy T1s before. There's nothing special about me and I retook. You claim you're going to work hard and succeed, why not put that effort into retaking the LSAT? Studying for the LSAT is a lot easier than gunning for 3 years in law school.

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chuckbass
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby chuckbass » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:40 pm

Except median at Cornell is getting biglaw while top 25% at SJL could still be out of a job.

Bane75
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby Bane75 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:42 pm

Finally. Some logic. You make some good points. Mainly, the reason i said it was completely out of the question was because i just wanted people to answer my OP. Once i have all my options infront of me i will reevaluate. If SJU is my best option at that point i think itd be foolish to not even consider retaking. Thanks for a coherent response.

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Clearly
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby Clearly » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:46 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
Bane75 wrote:You may look at law school as a gamble where you punch a ticket, make a bet and sit around to see the result. I happen to think that attitude is the very reason why law school has gotten such a bad reputation. People who dive headfirst into a mountain of debt without understanding the risks and expecting everything to sort itself out. A student has control over his grades, does he not? Yes grades are based on a curve, but positive performance is directly correlated with success and placement in your class/ selection to Law Reviews, both of which have a great effect on job placement.


As someone else mentioned, Rad just said those schools aren't worth going to even for free. I may not care for Rad, but he's absolutely right in this situation. If you can't get a better school than those, you're an idiot to still go to law school. It's a gamble with only ~10% chance of winning and a 90% chance of crippling you with debt and ruining your life. If you want to see what it's like to get no offered, travel over to the vale of tears and take a read. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=192753 204 pages of near suicidal desperation. That's what Rad is trying to save you from.

Also, Cannot believe no one else has caught this yet. You're absolutely right. There is some correlation between hard work and success in law school. However, there's also a much greater correlation between hard work and success on the LSAT. Guess what, you studied your ass off for 5 months and did not do so well on it. I wonder, how is it you could have worked so hard and still do poorly? Oh, that's right, because the LSAT is graded ON A CURVE. You might be quite intelligent but you didn't get the LSAT. You might not get law. You don't know. However, some of your classmates will get it. You refuse to retake the LSAT because you think you can't reach a higher percentile. Why would you bet your life that you'll be able to reach an even higher percentile against better competition in law school?

LSAT isn't actually graded on a curve, but your point still stands.

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Bane75
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Re: St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing?

Postby Bane75 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:08 pm

If we're talking statistics here it's also important to note that because 10% of graduates at X school get
"Big Law" jobs, that doesn't necessarily mean that the 10% comprised of only the top 10% of the class. There are factors other than grades that can get students jobs. That's a fact. While realizing that at a poor school like SJU (which once again is the worst school i applied to) one must excel to get a good job, i think you are oversimplifying just a bit. *waiting for the shit-storm that comment causes*




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