St. Johns Full Scholarship or American WCL with nothing? Forum

Bane75 · Post by **Bane75** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:01 am

St. Johns offered full scholarship with top 40% stipulation. I know it's not ideal but they also have a sliding scale (stay in top 55% receive 75% scholarship, top 65%= 50% scholarship). Not having to pay for tuition in NYC is great but SJU leaves a lot to be desired. These are the only two schools i've heard from so far. Applied to 14 schools so still have a ton to think about. At this point, where would you guys do?

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:08 am

hephaestus · Post by **hephaestus** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:14 am

You should retake. St. John's does not even place well in NY, let alone anywhere else. That stipulation is more or less designed to make you lose part of it, and losing any of the scholarship makes it profoundly not worth it. Also, you still need to pay COL, which will be around 60k with interest.

Bane75 · Post by **Bane75** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:24 am

retaking is out of the question. Again, these are my only options at this point. Still waiting to hear back from WCL about $ (though they're notoriously stingy) and other schools like BU, Fordham, BC. May not be up to the TLS standards but i'd be happy to attend any of those three. LOL. Thanks guys.

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:27 am

Bane75 · Post by **Bane75** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:30 am

I studied for 5 months everyday like a full-time job. Took around 30 practice tests and i'm convinced i scored as high as i can. I think i maxed out my LSAT potential.

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:34 am

Bane75 · Post by **Bane75** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:41 am

Your logic is T14 or bust. I happen to believe its possible to have a large law firm hire you from a school that is outside of the T14. BU and BC both have excellent employment records with the former being ranked #10 by Princeton Review for job placement. I'm prepared to "struggle" to obtain a job in this market.

TheSpanishMain · Post by **TheSpanishMain** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:42 am

Bane75 wrote:I studied for 5 months everyday like a full-time job. Took around 30 practice tests and i'm convinced i scored as high as i can. I think i maxed out my LSAT potential.

If that's true, you should not go to law school. I'm not trying to be a dick, but both schools are awful. I wouldn't go to American WCL for free. All they're offering you is some life ruining debt.

Bane75 wrote:Your logic is T14 or bust. I happen to believe its possible to have a large law firm hire you from a school that is outside of the T14. BU and BC both have excellent employment records with the former being ranked #10 by Princeton Review for job placement. I'm prepared to "struggle" to obtain a job in this market.

No, it's not. BC/BU are both perfectly good choices at the right price. No one is saying it must be a T14. It just can't be these two shitholes.

And of course it's POSSIBLE to have a large firm hire you from St. Johns or American. It's POSSIBLE to get a great job coming out of Cooley. It's just really unlikely. If you were in Vegas and were going to bet 200k, would you play a game that gave you a 10% chance of winning? Would you go, "Hey, I know the odds are absolutely against me, but since it's possible I'll win, I should bet this money!"

Bane75 · Post by **Bane75** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:46 am

Maybe i was premature for posting this in the first place. Again, i have applied to a lot of schools and have only heard back from two. I will sort everything out with my responses and $ situation and get back to you guys. But when i say i am waiting to hear back from two top 20 schools and 'rad lulz' responds that i should abandon law school all together it's a little much don't you think.

Bane75 · Post by **Bane75** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:50 am

You may look at law school as a gamble where you punch a ticket, make a bet and sit around to see the result. I happen to think that attitude is the very reason why law school has gotten such a bad reputation. People who dive headfirst into a mountain of debt without understanding the risks and expecting everything to sort itself out. A student has control over his grades, does he not? Yes grades are based on a curve, but positive performance is directly correlated with success and placement in your class/ selection to Law Reviews, both of which have a great effect on job placement.

NYstate · Post by **NYstate** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:51 am

Bane75 wrote:Maybe i was premature for posting this in the first place. Again, i have applied to a lot of schools and have only heard back from two. I will sort everything out with my responses and $ situation and get back to you guys. But when i say i am waiting to hear back from two top 20 schools and 'rad lulz' responds that i should abandon law school all together it's a little much don't you think.

Rad lulz said if those the are best schools you can get into, then you shouldn't go.

My question is how well did you study? Just spending time and practice tests doesn't mean you studied effectively. Did you drill questions? Did you review your answers? Did you use strictly timed tests? Not everyone studies in a way that will improve their score.

NYstate · Post by **NYstate** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:56 am

Bane75 wrote:You may look at law school as a gamble where you punch a ticket, make a bet and sit around to see the result. I happen to think that attitude is the very reason why law school has gotten such a bad reputation. People who dive headfirst into a mountain of debt without understanding the risks and expecting everything to sort itself out. A student has control over his grades, does he not? Yes grades are based on a curve, but positive performance is directly correlated with success and placement in your class/ selection to Law Reviews, both of which have a great effect on job placement.

Law schools have terrible reputations because they lied about employment statistics for years.

No one here has ever said that law school doesn't require work. There are many guides on how to work effectively and maximize your grades.

You don't understand the curve. The curve means the number of As is set in stone even if the entire class writes a brilliant exam. You have one exam to get it right. Your performance will always be in comparison to your peers.

TheSpanishMain · Post by **TheSpanishMain** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:57 am

Bane75 wrote: positive performance is directly correlated with success and placement in your class/ selection to Law Reviews, both of which have a great effect on job placement.

Of course it is, you just can't assume that you're going to perform significantly better than your peers. If you were naturally that much smarter than them, you'd be at a better law school. They're going to be roughly your intellectual equals. Assuming that you're going to crush them is ridiculous. Obviously you have to work hard, but the point is that they're probably working hard too, and just banking everything on beating them is a bad move.

Bane75 · Post by **Bane75** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:58 am

When i mentioned i was waiting to hear back from BU and BC he said if those were my best options i shouldn't go. I disagree. I drilled questions regularly, checked and wrote out the explanations and re-drilled. I was just looking to see where you guys would go if you were given those two options. Apparently you guys would take another year to prepare. I appreciate the feedback though i really do. I am going to law school this year. So if anyone has tips for 2014 matriculation i'd appreciate them more.

TheSpanishMain · Post by **TheSpanishMain** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:01 am

If you come back with "I got BU/BC with some nice scholarship money, and I want to work in Boston" then yeah, going to law school makes sense. Those are decent options. If American or SJU remain your only options, that's a different story.

Bane75 · Post by **Bane75** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:01 am

I will get back to you guys when everything is settled. Thanks for the feedback.

ggocat · Post by **ggocat** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:46 am

Bane75 wrote:I will get back to you guys when everything is settled. Thanks for the feedback.

This. You still have 1-2 months before you need to start getting serious, and your options may improve.

But to answer your actual question, St. John's, no doubt. According to LST reports, the employment numbers are about the same. So there's no reason to pay an extra $150,000 for American. Do what you can to avoid debt when choosing among low-ranked schools.

WaltGrace83 · Post by **WaltGrace83** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:14 pm

Not trying disrespect you TS, but everyone here is really trying to help. This is anecdotal but I have seen what being 200k in debt and jobless looks like. This has occurred in my immediate family. It is not fun and it has come with incredibly serious consequences on his/her mental health.

Bane75 · Post by **Bane75** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:30 pm

What is
"COL?"

Ramius · Post by **Ramius** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:34 pm

COL=Cost of Living

john1990 · Post by **john1990** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:58 pm

American University has worse job prospects despite being ranked higher. LST puts them at just 39% for 2012. I would go for St. John's. If you don't place in the top 40% you could always drop out after the first year. If you are given a full schollarship it is reasonable to belive that you have better numbers than the rest of the class and are of a greater intellectual ability. You beat them for four years you should be able to beat them for 3 more. The one thing is law school is different than undergrad in that the material is different so it has happened that successful undergraduate students struggle but that is rare. I wouldn't pass up a full ride at St. Johns

Clearly · Post by **Clearly** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:42 pm

john1990 wrote:American University has worse job prospects despite being ranked higher. LST puts them at just 39% for 2012. I would go for St. John's. If you don't place in the top 40% you could always drop out after the first year. If you are given a full schollarship it is reasonable to belive that you have better numbers than the rest of the class and are of a greater intellectual ability. You beat them for four years you should be able to beat them for 3 more. The one thing is law school is different than undergrad in that the material is different so it has happened that successful undergraduate students struggle but that is rare. I wouldn't pass up a full ride at St. Johns

Your shtick isn't funny. This is some uniformed persons real life you're messing with.

zhenders · Post by **zhenders** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:15 pm

OP, no lie -- I'm embarrassed for you reading your posts. You can't imagine how incredibly arrogant, childish, uninformed and ridiculous you sound. Why in the HELL did you create this post asking for advice if all you are going to do is tell everyone what you "happen to believe" (which, by the way, is every bit as idiotic as if you happened to believe in fairies).

I hope you go to either of these schools. Go, please. It is clear that you are better-informed than any of us dumbasses trying to keep you from ruining your life. Just do us all a favor and pop back on here in four years. You have full permission from me (and probably everyone else) to rub your biglaw job in our faces when you get it after all of your hard work and effort pays off.

I just can't WAIT for all of us haters to be put in our place, can you?

jchiles · Post by **jchiles** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:52 pm

Not normally one to wade in on things like this but thanks to a boring super bowl I'll bite. OP, I just finished my first semester of law school and people with this type of attitude, at least in my section, were almost all at or below median in our class (people are strangely open about this type of info here). That does not mean they do not know the law, nor does it speak to their intelligence, ability to be a lawyer, etc., but it is important when you have GPA-sensitive scholarships and job positions you are relying on to justify your decision to go to a school.

Characterizing these schools as tire fires is probably not going to dissuade you from going, which is fine, but realize that for every person who enters law school thinking "I'll work harder and am inherently more capable than my classmates" there is a person who is completely shocked as to how they got an A in Torts or Civ Pro. Working hard and being smart are necessary to succeeding 1L year, but thinking you can out-grind your classmates and end up in contention for a big law despite the odds is very dangerous. Sorry for not addressing your question directly here, but you have to understand that every ambitious law student is thinking exactly the same as you are when they arrive on day one.

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