What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

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Moneytrees
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What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby Moneytrees » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:28 pm

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Last edited by Moneytrees on Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

resilience99
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby resilience99 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:38 pm

Fordham's lsat median has been dropping and they haven't really reduced the class sizes. They place a large number of students in biglaw but because the class sizes are large, it is a relatively small percentage.

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Nova
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby Nova » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:41 pm

IDK but

USNWR sucks and should be ignored

Moneytrees
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby Moneytrees » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:44 pm

resilience99 wrote:Fordham's lsat median has been dropping and they haven't really reduced the class sizes. They place a large number of students in biglaw but because the class sizes are large, it is a relatively small percentage.


That is not true. As I said in the original post, Fordham's Biglaw placement is on par or better than UT, UCLA and Vanderbilt.

BigZuck
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:55 pm

US News Rankings don't matter. I also wouldn't call it's big law placement "very good," objectively speaking.

Retake, go to Columbia or NYU if you want to go to school in NYC and want big law.

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twenty
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby twenty » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:00 am

Fordham is stupid for not shrinking their class size. Actually, most law schools are stupid in this regard.

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Mojosodope
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby Mojosodope » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:10 am

How is employment good?

62.8% on LST with 12% being school funded = 50% chance of getting an actual job

rad lulz
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:44 am

Nova wrote:IDK but

USNWR sucks and should be ignored

This

Doesn't matter at all what Fordham is ranked

sparty99
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby sparty99 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:44 am

Nova wrote:IDK but

USNWR sucks and should be ignored


+ 10,000

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guano
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby guano » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:26 am

Moneytrees wrote:
resilience99 wrote:Fordham's lsat median has been dropping and they haven't really reduced the class sizes. They place a large number of students in biglaw but because the class sizes are large, it is a relatively small percentage.


That is not true. As I said in the original post, Fordham's Biglaw placement is on par or better than UT, UCLA and Vanderbilt.

Both wrong.
Fordham reduced their class size quite a bit, and their biglaw placement lags behind UT/UCLA/USC/Vandy ( especially if you add Art. III clerkship)
However, outside the T18, they're the best shot at market paying biglaw. For those who don't get into the T14 and want NYC and/or biglaw it's high risk/high reward. About a quarter of the class gets biglaw or clerkship, about a quarter get decent legal jobs, and the rest are up shit creek without a paddle

Moneytrees
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby Moneytrees » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:39 pm

guano wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
resilience99 wrote:Fordham's lsat median has been dropping and they haven't really reduced the class sizes. They place a large number of students in biglaw but because the class sizes are large, it is a relatively small percentage.


That is not true. As I said in the original post, Fordham's Biglaw placement is on par or better than UT, UCLA and Vanderbilt.

Both wrong.
Fordham reduced their class size quite a bit, and their biglaw placement lags behind UT/UCLA/USC/Vandy ( especially if you add Art. III clerkship)
However, outside the T18, they're the best shot at market paying biglaw. For those who don't get into the T14 and want NYC and/or biglaw it's high risk/high reward. About a quarter of the class gets biglaw or clerkship, about a quarter get decent legal jobs, and the rest are up shit creek without a paddle


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Last edited by Moneytrees on Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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guano
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby guano » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:05 pm

Moneytrees wrote:
guano wrote:Fordham reduced their class size quite a bit, and their biglaw placement lags behind UT/UCLA/USC/Vandy ( especially if you add Art. III clerkship)
However, outside the T18, they're the best shot at market paying biglaw. For those who don't get into the T14 and want NYC and/or biglaw it's high risk/high reward. About a quarter of the class gets biglaw or clerkship, about a quarter get decent legal jobs, and the rest are up shit creek without a paddle



Why are you just making stuff up? Fordham is objectively better than UT, and is roughly equal to Vanderbilt and UCLA, in Biglaw placement. It does lag behind USC, I'll give you that. This is based on data, it's not my opinion. I'm no Fordham apologist, and have no interest in arguing that Fordham is underrated relative to the Big 2 in NYC. But Fordham's placement numbers are up there with the best outside of the top 14, which is why I asked the question about the rankings in the first place.

Thank you for your responses. I tend to agree that rankings don't matter all that much, but I was definitely puzzled by Fordham's slip in the rankings. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a glaring weakness/issue with the school.

Last year's NLJ250 list is now behind a paywall (and this year's isn't out yet), but, here's the numbers:

Pennsylvania (60.4%)
Chicago (55.1%)
Columbia (53.1%)
NYU (52.9%)
Northwestern (51.4%)
Harvard (50.3%)
Duke (48.4%)
Stanford (47.3%)
UC-Berkeley (45.3%)
Cornell (44.3%)
Virginia (42.3%)
Michigan (38.4%)
Georgetown (31.3%)
Yale (30.6%)
UCLA (29.1%)
USC (28.6%)
Vanderbilt (26.3%)
Texas (25.8%)
Fordham (23.4%)
UC-Irvine (23.2%)
George Washington (22.5%)
Boston University (21.3%)
Boston College (21.1%)
Illinois (18.8%)
Washington University (16.3%)
The year before that, the results outside the T14 were very similar - UCLA/USC/UT/Vandy were in a band together, at roughly 25-30%, and another band just below of Fordham/GW/BU/BC, followed by everyone else. The year before that, same thing.

I'm not trying to shit-talk fordham. But for the last few years (ITE), it's placement has consistently put it in a band with GW/BU/BC, and not UCLA/USC/UT/Vandy

sparty99
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby sparty99 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:04 pm

Why are you so interested in Fordham? I'd much rather go to a school that places 40% instead of 25%.

Moneytrees
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby Moneytrees » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:06 pm

guano wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
guano wrote:Fordham reduced their class size quite a bit, and their biglaw placement lags behind UT/UCLA/USC/Vandy ( especially if you add Art. III clerkship)
However, outside the T18, they're the best shot at market paying biglaw. For those who don't get into the T14 and want NYC and/or biglaw it's high risk/high reward. About a quarter of the class gets biglaw or clerkship, about a quarter get decent legal jobs, and the rest are up shit creek without a paddle



Why are you just making stuff up? Fordham is objectively better than UT, and is roughly equal to Vanderbilt and UCLA, in Biglaw placement. It does lag behind USC, I'll give you that. This is based on data, it's not my opinion. I'm no Fordham apologist, and have no interest in arguing that Fordham is underrated relative to the Big 2 in NYC. But Fordham's placement numbers are up there with the best outside of the top 14, which is why I asked the question about the rankings in the first place.

Thank you for your responses. I tend to agree that rankings don't matter all that much, but I was definitely puzzled by Fordham's slip in the rankings. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a glaring weakness/issue with the school.

Last year's NLJ250 list is now behind a paywall (and this year's isn't out yet), but, here's the numbers:

Pennsylvania (60.4%)
Chicago (55.1%)
Columbia (53.1%)
NYU (52.9%)
Northwestern (51.4%)
Harvard (50.3%)
Duke (48.4%)
Stanford (47.3%)
UC-Berkeley (45.3%)
Cornell (44.3%)
Virginia (42.3%)
Michigan (38.4%)
Georgetown (31.3%)
Yale (30.6%)
UCLA (29.1%)
USC (28.6%)
Vanderbilt (26.3%)
Texas (25.8%)
Fordham (23.4%)
UC-Irvine (23.2%)
George Washington (22.5%)
Boston University (21.3%)
Boston College (21.1%)
Illinois (18.8%)
Washington University (16.3%)
The year before that, the results outside the T14 were very similar - UCLA/USC/UT/Vandy were in a band together, at roughly 25-30%, and another band just below of Fordham/GW/BU/BC, followed by everyone else. The year before that, same thing.

I'm not trying to shit-talk fordham. But for the last few years (ITE), it's placement has consistently put it in a band with GW/BU/BC, and not UCLA/USC/UT/Vandy


Interesting. Not sure why those numbers differ lawschooltransparency. Perhaps the latter also measures percentage of people getting jobs at smaller firms. Thanks the info.

Sparty- Fordham seems like a good fit for me for the reasons I listed above. I'm not set on going there, however. I wanted to get some perspective from tls users. I really just can't comprehend how schools like Washington and Lee and Indiana are ranked ahead of a school like Fordham. There are other examples of schools outperforming their rank (like bc and bu), but Fordham strikes me as the most egregious case.

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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:10 pm

Moneytrees wrote:
guano wrote:
Moneytrees wrote:
guano wrote:Fordham reduced their class size quite a bit, and their biglaw placement lags behind UT/UCLA/USC/Vandy ( especially if you add Art. III clerkship)
However, outside the T18, they're the best shot at market paying biglaw. For those who don't get into the T14 and want NYC and/or biglaw it's high risk/high reward. About a quarter of the class gets biglaw or clerkship, about a quarter get decent legal jobs, and the rest are up shit creek without a paddle



Why are you just making stuff up? Fordham is objectively better than UT, and is roughly equal to Vanderbilt and UCLA, in Biglaw placement. It does lag behind USC, I'll give you that. This is based on data, it's not my opinion. I'm no Fordham apologist, and have no interest in arguing that Fordham is underrated relative to the Big 2 in NYC. But Fordham's placement numbers are up there with the best outside of the top 14, which is why I asked the question about the rankings in the first place.

Thank you for your responses. I tend to agree that rankings don't matter all that much, but I was definitely puzzled by Fordham's slip in the rankings. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a glaring weakness/issue with the school.

Last year's NLJ250 list is now behind a paywall (and this year's isn't out yet), but, here's the numbers:

Pennsylvania (60.4%)
Chicago (55.1%)
Columbia (53.1%)
NYU (52.9%)
Northwestern (51.4%)
Harvard (50.3%)
Duke (48.4%)
Stanford (47.3%)
UC-Berkeley (45.3%)
Cornell (44.3%)
Virginia (42.3%)
Michigan (38.4%)
Georgetown (31.3%)
Yale (30.6%)
UCLA (29.1%)
USC (28.6%)
Vanderbilt (26.3%)
Texas (25.8%)
Fordham (23.4%)
UC-Irvine (23.2%)
George Washington (22.5%)
Boston University (21.3%)
Boston College (21.1%)
Illinois (18.8%)
Washington University (16.3%)
The year before that, the results outside the T14 were very similar - UCLA/USC/UT/Vandy were in a band together, at roughly 25-30%, and another band just below of Fordham/GW/BU/BC, followed by everyone else. The year before that, same thing.

I'm not trying to shit-talk fordham. But for the last few years (ITE), it's placement has consistently put it in a band with GW/BU/BC, and not UCLA/USC/UT/Vandy


Interesting. Not sure why those numbers differ lawschooltransparency. Perhaps the latter also measures percentage of people getting jobs at smaller firms. Thanks the info.

Sparty- Fordham seems like a good fit for me for the reasons I listed above. I'm not set on going there, however. I wanted to get some perspective from tls users. I really just can't comprehend how schools like Washington and Lee and Indiana are ranked ahead of a school like Fordham. There are other examples of schools outperforming their rank (like bc and bu), but Fordham strikes me as the most egregious case.


Cuz US News cares about crap that doesn't matter and employment stats are valued enough in their system. The sooner you make peace with the fact that US News rankings don't matter, the better off you will be.

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guano
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby guano » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:16 pm

Moneytrees wrote:Interesting. Not sure why those numbers differ lawschooltransparency. Perhaps the latter also measures percentage of people getting jobs at smaller firms. Thanks the info.

Sparty- Fordham seems like a good fit for me for the reasons I listed above. I'm not set on going there, however. I wanted to get some perspective from tls users. I really just can't comprehend how schools like Washington and Lee and Indiana are ranked ahead of a school like Fordham. There are other examples of schools outperforming their rank (like bc and bu), but Fordham strikes me as the most egregious case.

Don't get me wrong. I think that based on your circumstances Fordham is probably a good fit, and they do have a decent alumni base in California (but you really shouldn't go there with the intent of ending up anywhere other than NYC). But not at full price. You're already a step above everyone else by being able to keep your living costs down, but you should try to get a scholarship. $150k (sticker) is a crapload of money, and if you miss the biglaw boat you don't want that hanging round your neck. At the maximum scholarship ($30k based on past 2 years), it most definitely is worth $60k. You probably won't get that much, but try to get as much as you can, and then decide

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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby dissonance1848 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:29 pm

You have a 3.6/163. If you want to go to law school, you have to retake and get at least a 170, and then apply to T14. Shit, if you can get a 175+, Harvard is in play, via LSN.

Do not go to Fordham, unless they give you a fullride.

Otherwise, do not go to law school.

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guano
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby guano » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:47 pm

dissonance1848 wrote:You have a 3.6/163. If you want to go to law school, you have to retake and get at least a 170, and then apply to T14. Shit, if you can get a 175+, Harvard is in play, via LSN.

Do not go to Fordham, unless they give you a fullride.

Otherwise, do not go to law school.

Fordham doesn't give full rides*


*they give out 2 full rides per year. My understanding is that these are less based on numbers, and more based on strategic placement of future alumni, but fuck if I know

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lawhopeful10
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby lawhopeful10 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm

If you can get Fordham with under 100k in future debt I'm tempted to say that's not a terrible situation. Plus you can drop out if you brick it first semester. I chose UGA with like 90k future debt and felt comfortable with that but it just depends on how debt adverse you are.

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phillywc
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby phillywc » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:28 pm

You have poor odds at Fordham, and if you got in it would be at sticker. Objectively bad decision.

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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby Moneytrees » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:06 am

A retake is still a possibility. However, I'm working full time and helping take care of my grandmother. Both money and time are tight. Realistically, I don't think my chances of scoring in the 170's are very good, at all. I guess we will see how things go this cycle.

To the guy who goes to Georgia: I was thinking of applying there, it seems like a solid pick given it's relatively cheap tuition and solid job prospects. Its 2011 numbers were a little alarming though. I almost went to Emory for undergrad, I don't know too much about Athens.

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phillywc
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby phillywc » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:13 am

Moneytrees wrote:A retake is still a possibility. However, I'm working full time and helping take care of my grandmother. Both money and time are tight. Realistically, I don't think my chances of scoring in the 170's are very good, at all. I guess we will see how things go this cycle.

To the guy who goes to Georgia: I was thinking of applying there, it seems like a solid pick given it's relatively cheap tuition and solid job prospects. Its 2011 numbers were a little alarming though. I almost went to Emory for undergrad, I don't know too much about Athens.

You don't need 17X for a good scholly at Fordham.

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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby Moneytrees » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:21 am

phillywc wrote:You have poor odds at Fordham, and if you got in it would be at sticker. Objectively bad decision.


Even at sticker, it's not an "objectively bad" decision. It all depends on how confident you are that you can land a job in Biglaw. 150K of debt is a large investment, but one that pays off in the long run with Biglaw. I have 3 uncles/aunts that went to Fordham and all went on to work in Biglaw. One of them is the chief legal head at American Express. Needless to say, I wouldn't ideally want to pay sticker.

I don't need a lecture about the risks of going to Fordham (or any other schools outside of the top 14). Personally, I am very confident in my chances of finishing in the top 15/20 percent of my class. I was in the top 20 percent at UCSD with a double major and playing on the soccer team (I also probably spent too much time at the frat house). I've done all the research, and am aware of both the weakness and positives of the schools that I've applied to. All I was asking was: is there any specific, glaring weakness that has caused Fordham to free fall in the rankings? The answer, from what I can discern, is no. Also apparent is the fact that knowledgeable people on here don't seem to respect the methodology behind the rankings in the first place. I appreciate the perspective.

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phillywc
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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby phillywc » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:07 am

Moneytrees wrote:
phillywc wrote:You have poor odds at Fordham, and if you got in it would be at sticker. Objectively bad decision.


Even at sticker, it's not an "objectively bad" decision. It all depends on how confident you are that you can land a job in Biglaw. 150K of debt is a large investment, but one that pays off in the long run with Biglaw. I have 3 uncles/aunts that went to Fordham and all went on to work in Biglaw. One of them is the chief legal head at American Express. Needless to say, I wouldn't ideally want to pay sticker.

I don't need a lecture about the risks of going to Fordham (or any other schools outside of the top 14). Personally, I am very confident in my chances of finishing in the top 15/20 percent of my class. I was in the top 20 percent at UCSD with a double major and playing on the soccer team (I also probably spent too much time at the frat house). I've done all the research, and am aware of both the weakness and positives of the schools that I've applied to. All I was asking was: is there any specific, glaring weakness that has caused Fordham to free fall in the rankings? The answer, from what I can discern, is no. Also apparent is the fact that knowledgeable people on here don't seem to respect the methodology behind the rankings in the first place. I appreciate the perspective.

Riiight. Just so you know, law school grades are given on a curve. They rest almost entirely on your final exam performance. What if you have a bad day? What if you get sick? You CAN NOT bank on top 15% no matter what school it is. Almost everyone at Fordham will have a higher LSAT score than you anyways, what makes you so sure you can beat them?

Objectively bad decision but honestly if you are a real person you more or less deserve what you are going to get.

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Re: What accounts for Fordham's free fall in the rankings?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:25 am

Moneytrees wrote:
phillywc wrote:You have poor odds at Fordham, and if you got in it would be at sticker. Objectively bad decision.


Even at sticker, it's not an "objectively bad" decision. It all depends on how confident you are that you can land a job in Biglaw. 150K of debt is a large investment, but one that pays off in the long run with Biglaw. I have 3 uncles/aunts that went to Fordham and all went on to work in Biglaw. One of them is the chief legal head at American Express. Needless to say, I wouldn't ideally want to pay sticker.

I don't need a lecture about the risks of going to Fordham (or any other schools outside of the top 14). Personally, I am very confident in my chances of finishing in the top 15/20 percent of my class. I was in the top 20 percent at UCSD with a double major and playing on the soccer team (I also probably spent too much time at the frat house). I've done all the research, and am aware of both the weakness and positives of the schools that I've applied to. All I was asking was: is there any specific, glaring weakness that has caused Fordham to free fall in the rankings? The answer, from what I can discern, is no. Also apparent is the fact that knowledgeable people on here don't seem to respect the methodology behind the rankings in the first place. I appreciate the perspective.


This is an objectively bad post and you should feel bad (objectively speaking).

Boomer anecdotes don't matter, and as has been said you can't predict 1L performance with such a high degree of accuracy.

As an aside- lol@being in the top 20% of UG at UCSD meaning anything. Being top 20% of a middling UC doesn't mean you'll be in an equivalent rank at a law school like Fordham with a much stronger student body and the curve to combat.

As a second aside- being in the top 20% might be close to necessary but it's not sufficient to snag big law. It's Fordham were talking about, not Yale.

You need to do way more research on how all this law school stuff works. Also, stop acting like you're special. Everyone in law school is special. That means, more likely than not, you will be average. Being average at Fordham with 150K+ debt is a very scary place to be.




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