Fraternities/sororities

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Lwoods1020
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Lwoods1020 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:13 pm

WestWingWatcher wrote:I'm greek, I would guess a large portion of law school applicants are. Unfortunately, I highly doubt it does much of anything... maybeeeee if the admissions officer happens to have been greek (or your specific organization)...


What makes you think a large proportion are?

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Carter1901
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Carter1901 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:16 pm

kemosabe wrote:I'd echo what others have said. I highlighted my membership by discussing leadership, philanthropy, community service, etc. Mere membership is unlikely to bring much of a boost unless you make the effort to frame it in a relevant manner. As a yankee this is pure speculation, but I feel like Greek organizations have more prestige in the South. It can't hurt to simply list it in the off chance it helps make a connection though. Any negative preconceptions would be marginal in my opinion, especially if you've demonstrated elsewhere that you have your act together.


Nailed it.

nucky thompson
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby nucky thompson » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:17 pm

Danger Zone wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:Leave the frat off your résumé when you start applying.

Sorry I meant to real jobs. Anyone with a pulse and an LSAT can get into law school nowadays.


based on anecdotal experience, this is poor advice.

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txdude45
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby txdude45 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:26 pm

nucky thompson wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:Leave the frat off your résumé when you start applying.

Sorry I meant to real jobs. Anyone with a pulse and an LSAT can get into law school nowadays.


based on anecdotal experience, this is poor advice.


There was about a 6 month span where I took mine off my resume, but I was an undergrad at the time and my chapter had been in the national news for a very unflattering incident. Outside of that, yeah, never take it off. It can only help make a connection, or start a conversation.

californiauser
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby californiauser » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:51 pm

txdude45 wrote:
nucky thompson wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:Leave the frat off your résumé when you start applying.

Sorry I meant to real jobs. Anyone with a pulse and an LSAT can get into law school nowadays.


based on anecdotal experience, this is poor advice.


There was about a 6 month span where I took mine off my resume, but I was an undergrad at the time and my chapter had been in the national news for a very unflattering incident. Outside of that, yeah, never take it off. It can only help make a connection, or start a conversation.


This is bad advice. Sure, it could help you. I would argue that it is more likely to hurt than help in the majority of instances. Most people (who do hiring) that I know said it's best to leave it off. This advice may not hold true for parochial markets, though.

Captainunaccountable
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Captainunaccountable » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:33 pm

txdude45 wrote:
nucky thompson wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:Leave the frat off your résumé when you start applying.

Sorry I meant to real jobs. Anyone with a pulse and an LSAT can get into law school nowadays.


based on anecdotal experience, this is poor advice.


There was about a 6 month span where I took mine off my resume, but I was an undergrad at the time and my chapter had been in the national news for a very unflattering incident. Outside of that, yeah, never take it off. It can only help make a connection, or start a conversation.


To be part of the 'ol' boy network' you have to actually know people and use your connections. In these instances, fraternities are wonderful. Just throwing around your app (w/ frat listed) to people you don't know won't do anything at all; unless by a marginal chance your hiring guy is in that fraternity.

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txdude45
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby txdude45 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:42 pm

I mean, we aren't going to find a hard and fast truth here. I'm saying that I've been told by many people to leave it on and have gotten bumps from people I didn't know b/c they saw it on my resume. To each there own, but I'd leave it on unless you have a good reason not to.

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Danger Zone
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Danger Zone » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:15 pm

Carter1901 wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:Leave the frat off your résumé when you start applying.


Definitely disagree here - whether for jobs or for law school apps, it won't hurt you to leave it on there. Assuming the rest of your application is solid, it may help slightly, especially if you can leverage your involvement to highlight your capacity for leadership, your interest in philanthropy, etc. I don't mean to oversell this; it certainly won't be a game changer - but if it's something you've put time and energy into, leave it. Purely anecdotal, but I discussed Greek involvement in apps and I think I've slightly over-performed my numbers thus far this cycle (again, probably due to other factors, but it hasn't hurt me).

Tell us more about your experience with applying to jobs as a law student.

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stillwater
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby stillwater » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:19 pm

Danger Zone wrote:
Carter1901 wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:Leave the frat off your résumé when you start applying.


Definitely disagree here - whether for jobs or for law school apps, it won't hurt you to leave it on there. Assuming the rest of your application is solid, it may help slightly, especially if you can leverage your involvement to highlight your capacity for leadership, your interest in philanthropy, etc. I don't mean to oversell this; it certainly won't be a game changer - but if it's something you've put time and energy into, leave it. Purely anecdotal, but I discussed Greek involvement in apps and I think I've slightly over-performed my numbers thus far this cycle (again, probably due to other factors, but it hasn't hurt me).

Tell us more about your experience with applying to jobs as a law student.


adcomms LOVE frats. keg stands and headbands ALL.DAY.LONG at admissions

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Carter1901
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Carter1901 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:46 pm

Danger Zone wrote:
Carter1901 wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:Leave the frat off your résumé when you start applying.


Definitely disagree here - whether for jobs or for law school apps, it won't hurt you to leave it on there. Assuming the rest of your application is solid, it may help slightly, especially if you can leverage your involvement to highlight your capacity for leadership, your interest in philanthropy, etc. I don't mean to oversell this; it certainly won't be a game changer - but if it's something you've put time and energy into, leave it. Purely anecdotal, but I discussed Greek involvement in apps and I think I've slightly over-performed my numbers thus far this cycle (again, probably due to other factors, but it hasn't hurt me).

Tell us more about your experience with applying to jobs as a law student.


Not a law student currently; my only experience is from non-JD hiring and ls apps, so I think we're talking about two different things (I can definitely see how that looked like I was talking legal employment though). My only point was that OP is probably fine either way on this.

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Nucky
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Nucky » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:11 pm

Fraternities and sororities can be a divisive topic. Clearly, many of the posters here were never involved in Greek life, but have seen Animal House, read a few unflattering news reports and feel that they have some kind of moral high ground as they slam Greek life and "stick it to the man!"

But in reality, if you were in a leadership position like VP or President of a 50+ member Chapter, and were elected to such a position by those who know you best, that says something about you, your social competency, maturity, and leadership abilities. How many GDIs can say that if they rounded up 100 of their closest friends, that they would be elected to lead that group? That says A LOT about a person.

You never know who is going to be reading your apps. Maybe the adcomm officer was locked in a dumpster by a fraternity in college and has a grudge. Who knows? But in most cases, it should serve as a boost to anyone viewing your app through the proper lenses.

Founding a multi-million dollar business, curing cancer, or establishing a charity which manages to feed all of Sudan aside, being the President of a large Greek organization is the most challenging and difficult thing you could do as an undergraduate from a leadership perspective. SGA positions are a picnic compared to the challenges you will face as a Greek executive. Anyone who tells you otherwise has no idea what they're talking about.

However, just making it through pledgeship and being a member will not give you a boost.
Last edited by Nucky on Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nucky
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Nucky » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:16 pm

I should also add that I know three different Greek executives who were accepted to their top schools and whose acceptances included specific references to their Greek leadership experience.

Anecdotal, but illustrates the point that not all adcomms are stuffy academics without an appreciation of social competency.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:20 pm

I find the equation of Greek membership with social competency rather off-putting. I understand what you mean by it (I think), but keep in mind that those who have negative views of the Greek system are not going to make that equation and in fact may draw the opposite conclusion.

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Carter1901
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Carter1901 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:24 pm

Nucky wrote:Fraternities and sororities can be a divisive topic. Clearly, many of the posters here were never involved in Greek life, but have seen Animal House, read a few unflattering news reports and feel that they have some kind of moral high ground as they slam Greek life and "stick it to the man!"

But in reality, if you were in a leadership position like VP or President of a 50+ member Chapter, and were elected to such a position by those who know you best, that says something about you, your social competency, maturity, and leadership abilities. How many GDIs can say that if they rounded up 100 of their closest friends, that they would be elected to lead that group? That says A LOT about a person.

You never know who is going to be reading your apps. Maybe the adcomm officer was locked in a dumpster by a fraternity in college and has a grudge. Who knows? But in most cases, it should serve as a boost to anyone viewing your app through the proper lenses.

Founding a multi-million dollar business, curing cancer, or establishing a charity which manages to feed all of Sudan aside, being the President of a large Greek organization is the most challenging and difficult thing you could do as an undergraduate from a leadership perspective. SGA positions are a picnic compared to the challenges you will face as a Greek executive. Anyone who tells you otherwise has no idea what they're talking about.

However, just making it through pledgeship and being a member will not give you a boost.


Very well said.

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bryanjbay12
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby bryanjbay12 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:28 pm

NYC2012 wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:Leave the frat off your résumé when you start applying.


Politely disagree with this, I left my sorority on my resume (I had a couple minor leadership positions) and have been accepted to my top choices. Nothing wrong with showing you're socially competent.


Being in greek life doesn't mean you're socially competent in any way. There are sororities and fraternities that accept all kinds of people. All it takes to get into most frats is to take shit from people for 3 months.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby TheSpanishMain » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:29 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I find the equation of Greek membership with social competency rather off-putting. I understand what you mean by it (I think), but keep in mind that those who have negative views of the Greek system are not going to make that equation and in fact may draw the opposite conclusion.


I think it at least demonstrates that the person isn't shy, withdrawn, or lacking in confidence. Whether or not most Greek system members are the type of person you'd like to hang out with is a different question. Basically, you may be trading one set of possible negative perceptions (applicant is awkward/shy/can't deal with people) with another set of possible negative perceptions (applicant is an annoying bro who is going to talk about crushing beers and railing ho's on spring break all day).

I think the opinions are going to be the most polarized in the South. I went to undergrad in Michigan. I wasn't involved in a fraternity, but a few of my friends were, and it didn't seem like something they took all that seriously. It just wasn't a big, divisive issue on campus.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:35 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I find the equation of Greek membership with social competency rather off-putting. I understand what you mean by it (I think), but keep in mind that those who have negative views of the Greek system are not going to make that equation and in fact may draw the opposite conclusion.


I think it at least demonstrates that the person isn't shy, withdrawn, or lacking in confidence. Whether or not most Greek system members are the type of person you'd like to hang out with is a different question.

I think the opinions are going to be the most polarized in the South. I went to undergrad in Michigan. I wasn't involved in a fraternity, but a few of my friends were, and it didn't seem like something they took all that seriously. It just wasn't a big, divisive issue on campus.

Yeah, I don't agree that's what being in a fraternity/sorority demonstrates, nor is that how I define social competency. I mean, I'll admit ignorance on what they're actually like, because I went to an undergrad without a Greek system, in part because it didn't have a Greek system. I'm just saying that for someone with a negative opinion, it's not going to ring that sort of bell in their heads.

(I can see reasons for and against including it, so I'm kind of agnostic on that issue. I just want to point out that fraternity/sorority = social competence is not an automatic thing. Even from people who've been in them, based on the experience of a few people I know. That's not a reason not to include it, though.)

TigerDude
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby TigerDude » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:56 pm

Lol at "people know about frats via Animal House." Pretty sure people can have 1st hand info without being in one.

I have never seen a frat on a professional resume & would question the applicant's maturity if I did. Put it on your law application if you want, whatever. Seriously, is that a qualification for something?

Use your ole boy network outside of resumes.

gta
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby gta » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:57 pm

Nucky wrote:being the President of a large Greek organization is the most challenging and difficult thing you could do as an undergraduate from a leadership perspective. SGA positions are a picnic compared to the challenges you will face as a Greek executive. Anyone who tells you otherwise has no idea what they're talking about..


This is something that varies wildly by school. You're painting with quite the broad brush.

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Nucky
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Nucky » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:58 pm

bryanjbay12 wrote:
All it takes to get into most frats is to take shit from people for 3 months.


That is absolute nonsense. But hey, whatever helps you feel better about yourself.

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Nucky
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Nucky » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:01 pm

gta wrote:
Nucky wrote:being the President of a large Greek organization is the most challenging and difficult thing you could do as an undergraduate from a leadership perspective. SGA positions are a picnic compared to the challenges you will face as a Greek executive. Anyone who tells you otherwise has no idea what they're talking about..


This is something that varies wildly by school. You're painting with quite the broad brush.


It does not vary wildly by school. I threw "large" in there for a reason. If you're the president of a 15 man Chapter that is likely a manageable situation. But I have a tough time envisioning a scenario at any University where an SGA member has a tougher time than the executives of a LARGE Greek organization.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:01 pm

Nucky wrote:
bryanjbay12 wrote:
All it takes to get into most frats is to take shit from people for 3 months.


That is absolute nonsense. But hey, whatever helps you feel better about yourself.

For the purpose of putting this on your resume, it doesn't matter whether it's true, it matters whether that's what people are going to think when they see a fraternity on your resume.

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Nucky
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Nucky » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:04 pm

TigerDude wrote:Lol at "people know about frats via Animal House." Pretty sure people can have 1st hand info without being in one.

I have never seen a frat on a professional resume & would question the applicant's maturity if I did. Put it on your law application if you want, whatever. Seriously, is that a qualification for something?

Use your ole boy network outside of resumes.


How could you have first hand info without being in one? That is like saying you can understand the army without joining it. Sure, you may speak to a recruiter, or have a close friend who is in it and have some 2nd hand info. But unless you're on the inside when the doors close I can assure you that you have no idea what it is like "1st hand."

That being said, it is fine to list on a grad school resume or even on your resume for your first few jobs in your early years. But if you're listing it on your resume at 40 then yeah, that's obviously not going to help and will likely make you look a bit silly. But as an (assumingly) young person with limited experience, you should take every relevant chance you have to communicate the positive aspects of your character and experience via your resume, and that likely means including your fraternity. If you had a leadership position, it is a no brainer, in my opinion.

gta
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby gta » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:14 pm

Nucky wrote:
gta wrote:
Nucky wrote:being the President of a large Greek organization is the most challenging and difficult thing you could do as an undergraduate from a leadership perspective. SGA positions are a picnic compared to the challenges you will face as a Greek executive. Anyone who tells you otherwise has no idea what they're talking about..


This is something that varies wildly by school. You're painting with quite the broad brush.


It does not vary wildly by school. I threw "large" in there for a reason. If you're the president of a 15 man Chapter that is likely a manageable situation. But I have a tough time envisioning a scenario at any University where an SGA member has a tougher time than the executives of a LARGE Greek organization.


From your earlier post, it looks as though you define large as 50+. In that case, I would certainly disagree with your assertion applying to a number of universities that I am familiar with, including my own.

I won't argue about your campus because I likely haven't been there, but you said "any University."

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Nucky
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Re: Fraternities/sororities

Postby Nucky » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:25 pm

gta wrote:
Nucky wrote:
gta wrote:
Nucky wrote:being the President of a large Greek organization is the most challenging and difficult thing you could do as an undergraduate from a leadership perspective. SGA positions are a picnic compared to the challenges you will face as a Greek executive. Anyone who tells you otherwise has no idea what they're talking about..


This is something that varies wildly by school. You're painting with quite the broad brush.


It does not vary wildly by school. I threw "large" in there for a reason. If you're the president of a 15 man Chapter that is likely a manageable situation. But I have a tough time envisioning a scenario at any University where an SGA member has a tougher time than the executives of a LARGE Greek organization.


From your earlier post, it looks as though you define large as 50+. In that case, I would certainly disagree with your assertion applying to a number of universities that I am familiar with, including my own.

I won't argue about your campus because I likely haven't been there, but you said "any University."


If you're in charge of a 50+ member Chapter, you likely have a rather large Chapter house to deal with, and 50 guys who need to be managed. That's tough. Very tough. Of course, some schools have 150+ man Chapters, thus increasing the difficulty of the task. But I feel that 40-50 members is a reasonable threshold to make that assumption, based on my experience. But hey, that's just my opinion.




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