Georgetown

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Georgetown

Postby 20141023 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:18 am

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NYstate
Posts: 1566
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Georgetown

Postby NYstate » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:06 am

Chidasuuu wrote:Ignorance and lack of financial savvy? As we all know, GULC is stingy as hell, which means the majority is there on sticker or very little $$. GULC may not be the best of the T14s but I wouldn't consider their student body to be filled with ignorant people. All I'm saying is everything is relative, 200k may be pocket change to some people and why not go to a "marginally" better school when it won't make a dent in your pocket anyway.


I wouldn't assume that GULC isn't filled with students who think it's rank and location make it worth ignoring its cost, tough local hiring market and huge class size. In other words, I wouldn't assume that the GULC student body is extremely savvy.

Your other point about people who can throw around $200,000 as pocket change is ridiculous.. Those kids are going to be fine whatever they do, wherever they go to school or whatever their class rank. Most of those. Kids go into a family business of some kind and very very few are dedicated or driven enough to even look at big law. Those students don't need advice from this forum and using them as an example is just stupid.

User avatar
lawschool22
Posts: 3875
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:47 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby lawschool22 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:03 am

As has been touched upon already, the main issue with Georgetown is cost relative to it's job placement numbers. You should, on average, be able to attend GULC for less cash than the schools that are ranked higher. However, we know that Georgetown is very stingy with money, and as such ends up being more vastly more expensive than schools ranked a few spots lower and, in many cases, more expensive than better-ranked schools. For certain goals I could see someone choosing GULC over a non-T14 if that was their only option, however this is almost never the case. Most people who get into Georgetown can get into a few other T14 schools as well.

There are some people who make the case that GULC is the correct choice. This is usually for people who have families of their own in DC, a significant other with a real job in DC, a career they are returning to in DC after school, etc. For the typical future law student with highly flexible geographic mobility, almost always another T14 is a better call.

kmj-c09
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:23 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby kmj-c09 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:48 pm

Part of my question was whether when people throw around 'job placement' they are mainly referring to big law. For someone for whom public interest is the end goal, big law job placement doesn't really feel that relevant. Unless big law placement is an indicator of where the most competitive PI positions will also be looking? (I imagine there is correlation, but GULC also seems to have specific strengths in 'global' and 'public service'?)

Regarding cost, I'm not sure to what degree pursuing a PI career where LRAP jobs would be the goal, anyway, changes that equation (or doesn't - of course graduating with the least debt possible is ideal).
Last edited by kmj-c09 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
lawschool22
Posts: 3875
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:47 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby lawschool22 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:15 pm

kmj-c09 wrote:Part of my question was whether when people throw around 'job placement' they are mainly referring to big law. For someone for whom public interest is the end goal, big law job placement doesn't really feel that relevant. Unless big law placement is somehow an indicator of where the most competitive PI positions will also be looking? (I imagine there is correlation, but GULC also seems to have specific strengths in 'global' and 'public service'?)

Regarding cost, I'm not sure to what degree pursuing a PI career where LRAP jobs would be the goal, anyway, changes that equation (or doesn't - of course graduating with the least debt possible is ideal).


Generally speaking, looking at biglaw + federal clerkship placement is seen as a proxy for overall job placement success. These two areas are seen as the most "selective" in a general sense (there are obviously certain uber-prestigious jobs that are not in these categories, but GULC grads are not in the running for those anyway). If you want PI, typically your ability to get these jobs increases as you move up the job placement latter among the T14.

There is an interesting thing going on at GULC were people think they have specific strengths in PI (OT, but what is this "global" you're referring to?). In reality, it is likely that people who go to GULC have a stronger self-selection towards PI in the first place. So the reason you see the higher placement numbers there is likely due to this, and not some inherent strength that GULC has.

On the flip side, GULC does have a good LRAP, and claims to have some stronger PI institutional support, so there's that. But this is generally not considered nearly enough to outweigh the lower overall employment numbers and higher COA that you will get by attending there.

User avatar
twenty
Posts: 3153
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby twenty » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:19 pm

Figure that for PI jobs, there are two overall classifications: "small PI" and "big PI." Small PI will include DA, PD, state govt, most fed govt, legal aid, housing assistance, JAG, immigration, some advocacy groups. Big PI includes ACLU, DOJ/SEC, Bristew, national advocacy, well-known non-profits, terminal clerkships, etc.

For small PI, no one cares about your school rank or your grades. Georgetown is as good as the rest of the T14 in this regard.

For big PI, the places that care about your school rank also cares about your grades. Your chances of getting this are really low from anywhere but HYS.

For LRAPs, Georgetown is solidly north of the middle of the road. IMHO:

NYU > Chicago/Columbia/Penn > HY > Georgetown > Berkeley > Stanford/V/D/UCLA > Michigan/Northwestern > Cornell/UT.

BigZuck
Posts: 10854
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Georgetown

Postby BigZuck » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:24 pm

twenty wrote:Figure that for PI jobs, there are two overall classifications: "small PI" and "big PI." Small PI will include DA, PD, state govt, most fed govt, legal aid, housing assistance, JAG, immigration, some advocacy groups. Big PI includes ACLU, DOJ/SEC, Bristew, national advocacy, well-known non-profits, terminal clerkships, etc.

For small PI, no one cares about your school rank or your grades. Georgetown is as good as the rest of the T14 in this regard.

For big PI, the places that care about your school rank also cares about your grades. Your chances of getting this are really low from anywhere but HYS.

For LRAPs, Georgetown is solidly north of the middle of the road. IMHO:

NYU > Chicago/Columbia/Penn > HY > Georgetown > Berkeley > Stanford/V/D/UCLA > Michigan/Northwestern > Cornell/UT.


Wait, whoa, isn't Yale the gold standard of LRAPs? I haven't done as much research as you have obviously but that really surprises me.

kmj-c09
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:23 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby kmj-c09 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:25 pm

With 'global', I was referring to Georgetown's emphasis and reputation for international affairs and international law (USNWR, depending on what weight you give those rankings, but them at three for international law : http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... w-rankings)
Last edited by kmj-c09 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
midwest17
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:27 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby midwest17 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:27 pm

kmj-c09 wrote:With 'global', I was referring to Georgetown's emphasis and reputation for international affairs and international law (USNWR, depending on what weight you give those rankings, but them at three for international law : http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... w-rankings)

Big PI has low chances outside of HYS? I find that hard to believe (NYU and Columbia??)...doesn't being in a big city with lots of international NGOs/international organizations (like NY or DC) give some sort of advantage?


Georgetown's strength in international law (if it has one) is in faculty, not job placement. Any worthwhile "international law" job (and there aren't many of them) you'll only get if you go to HYS. (Probably really YS)

User avatar
twenty
Posts: 3153
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby twenty » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:29 pm

BigZuck wrote:
twenty wrote:Figure that for PI jobs, there are two overall classifications: "small PI" and "big PI." Small PI will include DA, PD, state govt, most fed govt, legal aid, housing assistance, JAG, immigration, some advocacy groups. Big PI includes ACLU, DOJ/SEC, Bristew, national advocacy, well-known non-profits, terminal clerkships, etc.

For small PI, no one cares about your school rank or your grades. Georgetown is as good as the rest of the T14 in this regard.

For big PI, the places that care about your school rank also cares about your grades. Your chances of getting this are really low from anywhere but HYS.

For LRAPs, Georgetown is solidly north of the middle of the road. IMHO:

NYU > Chicago/Columbia/Penn > HY > Georgetown > Berkeley > Stanford/V/D/UCLA > Michigan/Northwestern > Cornell/UT.


Wait, whoa, isn't Yale the gold standard of LRAPs? I haven't done as much research as you have obviously but that really surprises me.


I would absolutely pick Yale over any of these schools when considering PI placement + LRAP (which is a far more practical consideration), but both Yale and Harvard's (and even more surprisingly, Stanford's) LRAPs leave a lot to be desired.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby JCougar » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:06 pm

Georgetown has a bad reputation on here because 1) it costs a fortune, 2) it is stingy with scholarships, and 3) it is in an area with a rather perposterous cost of living for anyone in school. If neither of these things matter to you (i.e. you come from vast amounts of family wealth) than by all means, go ahead and attend. Still, remember that outside the top 33% or so, your job options drop off a cliff. You have a 66% chance of being one of those persons.

Also, anyone who enters law school thinking they're going to gun for an LRAP position is out of their mind. These positions are far more rare and competitive than even Biglaw positions. Due to funding problems and hiring freezes, public interest and government law positions are incredibly hard to break into unless you go to a Top 10 school. And due to LRAP/IBR eligibility, they very highly sought after and competitive. They are not always as picky as Biglaw about grades (although some government/prestigious PI firms are even more picky), but the ones that aren't are far more picky about soft factors. You need pre-law school public-interest experience and an immediate dedication to public interest law (i.e. your 1L summer better be spent serving some under-served population).

To sum it up, gunning for an LRAP position is no better a bet than gunning for Biglaw, unless you have some previous experience that will make you seem well-qualified for a certain field.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby JCougar » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:16 pm

Just to add some perspective, even small "shitlaw" firms of 2-5 attorneys that pay a $40K starting salary are routinely deluged these days from desperate Georgetown and UVA (or better) graduates that struck out at OCI. They're getting like 300 applications for one shitlaw job. Christ, there's like 300 people from Georgetown alone each year that strike out at OCI...not to mention all the people from the bottom half of the T20 with "cum laude" on their resume or people from the bottom third of T10 classes that are gunning for the same jobs. The DC market is also filled with like 75% of the GWU class desperately looking for anything that resembles a "job." Most of the time, shitlaw firms prefer to take the local TTT graduate, since they're not a threat to leave for better pastures once the time rolls around. Which is ironic, because the only advantage to going to a better law school is to take advantage of their OCI. Once you strike out at that, you might as well be from a TTT...you're all in the same boat, clawing for the 3 or 4 that pop up on the local bar association website, or on monster.com.

User avatar
TheSpanishMain
Posts: 4119
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby TheSpanishMain » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:24 pm

I get the basic thrust of what you're saying, but I think you're overstating here. 75% of GWU grads are desperately searching for anything that could fairly be called a "job"? GWU is sitting a hair above 30% when you combine BigLaw+federal clerkships, and I don't think EVERYONE who doesn't fall into one of those two categories is desperately offering oral sex down at Union Station for part time legal work.

I'm not saying there aren't Georgetown/GWU grads in awful positions, but this is a little too "the sky is falling!"

BigZuck
Posts: 10854
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Georgetown

Postby BigZuck » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:28 pm

Typical Brucewaynecougar, always with the hyperbole and the whatnot

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby JCougar » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:33 pm

BigZuck wrote:Typical Brucewaynecougar, always with the hyperbole and the whatnot


Fine...change that number to 65% if you want. It's not like that makes the situation any better.

kmj-c09
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:23 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby kmj-c09 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:35 pm

I recognize LRAP positions are extremely competitive, but there are plenty of people who are on TLS looking at law schools by their Big Law output, which you could also say is equally 'out of their mind' because of competitiveness. If people who want Big Law are judging law schools by Big Law job placement, I don't know that its absurd for people who want PI to judge law schools by LRAP and other competitive PI placements.

I don't mean to be argumentative, I just get frustrated by the suggestion that people who are determined to enter PI don't know what they are getting into or are more naïve to the competitiveness of these positions than people determined to enter Big Law; most of the people I know who are applying to elite schools and 'gunning' for PI (and so in many cases would be aiming, ideally, for LRAP) have much more extensive PRE-LAW experience in that sector (including extensive pre-law public interest experience, extracurriculars and WE) than do their peers who are 'gunning' for Big Law in the private law sector. At least that's my impression. And would therefore begin law school with the immediate intention of expanding that experience through extracurricular and summer internship opportunities in PI.

User avatar
TheSpanishMain
Posts: 4119
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby TheSpanishMain » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:39 pm

JCougar wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Typical Brucewaynecougar, always with the hyperbole and the whatnot


Fine...change that number to 65% if you want. It's not like that makes the situation any better.


Or 35%, once we take out the 30% of people with government legal jobs. And then there are the 20% in school funded positions, at least some of which presumably turn into full time jobs.

I don't go to GW or anything, so I'm not trying to shill for them. Just trying to base the standard cautionary admonishments in some kind of reality.
Last edited by TheSpanishMain on Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tiago Splitter
Posts: 15475
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

Re: Georgetown

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:45 pm

kmj-c09 wrote:I recognize LRAP positions are extremely competitive, but there are plenty of people who are on TLS looking at law schools by their Big Law output, which you could also say is equally 'out of their mind' because of competitiveness. If people who want Big Law are judging law schools by Big Law job placement, I don't know that its absurd for people who want PI to judge law schools by LRAP and other competitive PI placements.

I don't mean to be argumentative, I just get frustrated by the suggestion that people who are determined to enter PI don't know what they are getting into or are more naïve to the competitiveness of these positions than people determined to enter Big Law; most of the people I know who are applying to elite schools and 'gunning' for PI (and so in many cases would be aiming, ideally, for LRAP) have much more extensive PRE-LAW experience in that sector (including extensive pre-law public interest experience, extracurriculars and WE) than do their peers who are 'gunning' for Big Law in the private law sector. At least that's my impression. And would therefore begin law school with the immediate intention of expanding that experience through extracurricular and summer internship opportunities in PI.

At a lot of T-14's biglaw is essentially handed to you on a silver platter. Good PI jobs are rarely that easy to get, so it's reasonable to say that getting a good LRAP job is quite a bit harder to get than biglaw. And for most people going the PI route entails a lot more risk. For better or worse trying for biglaw out of GULC entails a lot of risk too so maybe the difference isn't as stark there. But I imagine someone above median can pretty comfortably snag an NYC biglaw job out of GULC, while a PI gunner in that grade range still has a lot of work and nailbiting left to do.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby JCougar » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:00 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
JCougar wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Typical Brucewaynecougar, always with the hyperbole and the whatnot


Fine...change that number to 65% if you want. It's not like that makes the situation any better.


Or 30%, once we take out the 30% of people with government legal jobs. And then there are the 20% in school funded positions, at least some of which presumably turn into full time jobs.

I don't go to GW or anything, so I'm not trying to shill for them. Just trying to base the standard cautionary admonishments in some kind of reality.


How much overlap is there between those 30% with government jobs and 20% in school-funded positions? Governments are exempt from the minimum wage laws (when it comes to offering educational "internships" and "fellowships"--how they can argue that a post-grad "fellowship" is "educational" is beyond me) and therefore allowed to offer unpaid "fellowships" and what not. I'd be willing to bet that 50% or so of those school-funded positions are unpaid government jobs. DC is rife with "volunteers" working for agencies for 1-2 years in the hopes of getting a position when funding goes back to normal.

Also, even if you are one to get one of those unpaid internships/government jobs, it's likely you had to scratch and claw your way into one of them. Remember, the LST numbers are taken from 9 months after graduation (February 15th the year after you graduated). Many of those people that ended up being employed spent the following fall unemployed or volunteering somewhere, or moving back in with their parents while they sent out hundreds of resumes. While their loan interest accrued at a rate of $1000/month.

User avatar
TheSpanishMain
Posts: 4119
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby TheSpanishMain » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:12 pm

JCougar wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:
JCougar wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Typical Brucewaynecougar, always with the hyperbole and the whatnot


Fine...change that number to 65% if you want. It's not like that makes the situation any better.


Or 30%, once we take out the 30% of people with government legal jobs. And then there are the 20% in school funded positions, at least some of which presumably turn into full time jobs.

I don't go to GW or anything, so I'm not trying to shill for them. Just trying to base the standard cautionary admonishments in some kind of reality.


How much overlap is there between those 30% with government jobs and 20% in school-funded positions?


I don't know. Maybe some, although the government jobs are specifically listed as full time and long term. My point isn't that everything is peachy if you go to GW, just that it's nowhere near as bleak as "only 25% of the grads sleeping somewhere other than a sewage tunnel."

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby JCougar » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:24 pm

Fine, but I guarantee you there's plenty of people above median at Georgetown and in the top third of GWU that are scrounging around for jobs. According to LST, 30% of GT graduates don't have anything, even after 9 months. Of the other 30% that got jobs but not through OCI, well they were competing with the other 30% of their class that never found anything. So, after subtracting OCI people, there were approximately two GT graduates for every one that eventually got a job...and some of those jobs are likely terrible jobs with no pay/very low pay. That, to me, signifies a very competitive post OCI job search. That, after subtracting OCI, even people from a school as good as GT have about a 50/50 shot at landing anything at all.

User avatar
midwest17
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:27 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby midwest17 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:40 pm

JCougar wrote:That, after subtracting OCI, even people from a school as good as GT have about a 50/50 shot at landing anything at all.


How is this a useful metric?

NYstate
Posts: 1566
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Georgetown

Postby NYstate » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:10 pm

kmj-c09 wrote:I recognize LRAP positions are extremely competitive, but there are plenty of people who are on TLS looking at law schools by their Big Law output, which you could also say is equally 'out of their mind' because of competitiveness. If people who want Big Law are judging law schools by Big Law job placement, I don't know that its absurd for people who want PI to judge law schools by LRAP and other competitive PI placements.

I don't mean to be argumentative, I just get frustrated by the suggestion that people who are determined to enter PI don't know what they are getting into or are more naïve to the competitiveness of these positions than people determined to enter Big Law; most of the people I know who are applying to elite schools and 'gunning' for PI (and so in many cases would be aiming, ideally, for LRAP) have much more extensive PRE-LAW experience in that sector (including extensive pre-law public interest experience, extracurriculars and WE) than do their peers who are 'gunning' for Big Law in the private law sector. At least that's my impression. And would therefore begin law school with the immediate intention of expanding that experience through extracurricular and summer internship opportunities in PI.

No. PI can be much harder to obtain than big law. There are more big law jobs and firms pretty much hire every year a number of students that can be predicted by the previous year or two. PI is much more variable. The government may just cut positions and public service organizations may not hire. Add to that the loan forgiveness programs may mean that people stay in jobs for a decade instead of moving on. Then too there is the issue of living on a low salary which I have seen some PI people mention.So it is more difficult to predict the available jobs from year to year. I certainly don't see a boom in PI hiring in the next few years.

If you want PI, go for it. I'm not saying you aren't committed to it. I do think you underestimate the job market, but I think all 0Ls underestimate the job market. It sounds like you know what steps to take to be on the right path for PI.

'RE:LRAP- read the plans carefully. I don't know what they are now but some schools would help you with LRAP no matter when you get your qualifying job. Others require you have the job when you graduate or soon after. Some require you to be practicing law but others will cover any public service job. I don't remember which schools are which. Just don't count on a plan that requires you to have the job within a certain time of graduation.

NYstate
Posts: 1566
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Georgetown

Postby NYstate » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:19 pm

kmj-c09 wrote:With 'global', I was referring to Georgetown's emphasis and reputation for international affairs and international law (USNWR, depending on what weight you give those rankings, but them at three for international law : http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... w-rankings)

Big PI has low chances outside of HYS? I find that hard to believe (NYU and Columbia??)...doesn't being in a big city with lots of international NGOs/international organizations (like NY or DC) give some sort of advantage? (I would imagine chances are low anywhere given its extremely competitive, but relatively speaking).


Being in New York or DC doesn't matter nearly as much as school and connections you can make through your school. I don't know about PI but the top 3 schools are considered to greatly improve your chances at the most competitive jobs.

You should start a thread with questions in the ask.a law student forum if there isn't already a thread there.

User avatar
twenty
Posts: 3153
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: Georgetown

Postby twenty » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:39 pm

NYstate wrote:'RE:LRAP- read the plans carefully. I don't know what they are now but some schools would help you with LRAP no matter when you get your qualifying job. Others require you have the job when you graduate or soon after. Some require you to be practicing law but others will cover any public service job. I don't remember which schools are which. Just don't count on a plan that requires you to have the job within a certain time of graduation.


Didn't some devilishly handsome poster make a thread for that? ;)




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], tasha88 and 4 guests