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Well, considering you have to submit those community college transcripts, I'd bet the first grades are going to count.

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Bellacose wrote:I'm not sure you fully understand, but that's probably my fault because I left this part out: I took the courses in high school and then retook them after high school at the same community college. The transcript from the community college lists the original attempts as having zero semester hours, zero earned hours, and zero attempted hours. Given the quote in my OP from the LSAC I thought it sounded like they might be exempt from conversion because they do not list both the grade and the course hours.

Oh, I thought you re-took them at your undergrad university.

But in the end, it doesn't really matter what TLS predicts. You send in the transcripts, LSAC does its thing, and you get what you get.

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I seem to remember that in a previous case where a retaken course was listed with zero credits, LSAC just assumed it was a standard 3 credit course. I doubt I'll be able to find that thread, though.

If you really want to know, you can pay for CAS now and send in your transcripts. It's good for 5 years, so unless you're planning to take a lot of time off between ugrad and law school, it'll still be active when you apply.

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my experience is that every school is different. I can't speak for every case, but the policy seems to be to count zero credit hours attempted as three units. I went through this last cycle:

In MY case, I did exactly the same thing you did. Took classes in high school, retook them. My transcripts showed 0 credits attempted and zero earned.

I even went the extra mile of going through academic renewal, so that there would be an official note on my transcripts that those classes were not counted by my CC. This automatically brings the credits attempted and earned to zero, which was just my way of making double sure that those credit values (attempted/earned) were zero just in case it was only shown as zero on my unofficial transcripts because it was a retake or something.

ANyways. The LSAC counted those classes as three unit classes. The worst part? Two of them were actually one-unit classes. I even called, emailed, spent hours talking to the LSAC and giving them proof that that exact class (as evidenced by my school's catalog for that year, AND the identical class on my transcript, AND the current catalog, AND a note on my transcript from my school) was only one unit, and they still counted it as three units.

Long story short: it seems that all schools are different, but the LSAC will typically count any class with zero units attempted and earned as a three unit class. This is the norm. Some schools might have sneaky ways to avoid this, but the LSAC wouldn't tell me what they were. They wouldn't even confirm that any schools have been able to avoid this—I believe their exact words were, "we can't anticipate the rules that every school operated under, so there may be situations that differ. However, it is our policy to count all zero-credit-hour-attempted courses as three units and assign the listed grade the weight of three semester units".

I only include this because I don't want to make a blanket statement about all schools. But, in my experience, in 99% of cases they will count those as three units.

I'm happy to answer questions if you have them. I'm not an expert by any means, but i did do a TON of research on this, tons of internet scouring for posts on the subject, hours reading the LSAC policies, hours on the phone with LSAC, tons of emails from them, and then there's the non-recorded data of what I remember from our many phone conversations.....

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Hi I just made an account on here and I was looking for anyone who is online so I can get an opinion on this, I'm very nervous and have been thinking about this since this morning, Dec. 7, 2013, and I just need help.

My story is as follows:

I took the December LSAT today, December 7th 2013. I was dismissed as we were beginning the third section because at the end of the second section I had TOO MUCH INFORMATION stuck in my head and filled it in as we began the third section. The proctor immediately grabbed my exam and dismissed me without any warning. I honestly did not know that this was a rule, because when I first arrived there was an issue with the photo I had to bring with my ID -I didn't have it taped on the ticket. I cut it, taped it to the admissions ticket, but of course the proctor had to call the Testing Center Supervisor to discuss the matter with me, and as she discussed it with me outside and decided to let me take the exam, the proctor was inside and had read this rule that you cannot go back in any sections. I knew that you cannot flip back to any sections, but I must have missed the part about not being allowed to bubble any answer once the time is up for that section. I know claiming ignorance is not likely to get me anywhere with the LSAC Admissions council, so I would just like to know, should I cancel my score or protest? Also, if I cancel my score, would there still be a possible misconduct that would be shown to law schools? I would appreciate a reply as soon as you can on this, as I am very nervous, sad, and unsure of what I should do.

PS. I went to print out a a colored picture to provide with my ID because I believed it had to be in color, this was at about 11:30 pm on December 6th, because I forgot that it had to be in color, or at least that's what I thought, even though it turns out it doesn't have to be in color, as I was told. I got home and was coughing all night and tossing and turning, unfortunately it was too late to withdraw because it was past midnight Dec. 6, I even went to a family doctor who lives near by and she can confirm this. I just feel so screwed please help. I feel that because I became sick I couldn't concentrate and just kept thinking TOO MUCH INFORMATION and just naturally filled in TOO MUCH INFORMATION for section 2 as we were beginning section 3. I'm not saying I didn't do something wrong, I just feel that the circumstances and the fact that I couldn't stop coughing all night and morning distracted me, also the fact that I couldn't get a good night's sleep. I now look like a cheater and I feel pretty screwed.

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I was outside dealing with this stupid picture issue, when they read the rule about not being able to go back in sections. What I did wasn't even go back in a section, I filled in # 24 in the answer sheet for section 2 right as the proctor said begin section 3. I put my pencil down as soon as the proctor said pencils down for section 2. Over the next 30 seconds as she was saying begin section 3 all that was going through my head was TOO MUCH INFORMATION and as soon as she said pick up your pencils for section 3 I just naturally filled in #24 for section 2, I believe I did this because my mind was so tired because I got sick, I know I seem like I'm making excuses but this is the truth, and I even have documentation from a doctor that I went to see that night when I got home feeling like crap. Unfortunately is was to late to withdraw from the test. I'm not looking for pity, but I'm also not looking to get ripped on. I'm just trying to get anyone's opinion on what I should do and what my prospects are.

I called the LSAC, and spoke with a representative. She said that I should e-mail "blah blah" that would reach the LSAC Administration, because they make the final decision on things like that. But I feel that if it's my word against the proctor I'm screwed. So I'm trying to figure out if cancellation of my score would help me avoid and misconduct on my record? or would that still be put on there? Because if the possibility of misconduct is still there even if I cancel my score, then I'm not canceling. I had a proctor who was hovering over me because she was mad that I was allowed in after the picture issue, and then the head proctor who talked to the supervisor after I was dismissed (the opposite of the one who grabbed my test and dismissed me) told the supervisor that I filled in TOO MUCH INFORMATION section 2 FIVE MINUTES after we got into section 3, which is a blatent lie. Why would I just sit there for 5 minutes and not fill anything in section 3 and after 4:59 seconds fill in TOO MUCH INFORMATION. It's complete bullshit man.

Again, please delete your posts on this thread and create your own thread.

Any adult knows that a time limit is exactly what it sounds like - when the time is up you cant answer any more questions.

I'm just trying to figure out if canceling is worth it or not. Worth is would be that I do not get any misconduct reported on my record. Not worth it would be if I'm going to get a misconduct on my record even if I cancel, then it is not worth it to cancel and I would e-mail a report and protest.

My protest:

1) was outside when rules were read due to picture issue
2) got sick and have documentation from a doctor, but it was too late to withdraw from the test
3) Never flipped back in a section, my mind was impaired because I caught the flu and got very little sleep, and thus I accidentally filled TOO MUCH INFORMATION
4) The head proctor that spoke to the supervisor, (not the one that was patrolling the room and actually took my test), told the supervisor that I filled TOO MUCH INFORMATION for section 2 FIVE MINUTES after we started section 3. This could be plausible if I filled in some answers for section 3 and went back to fill in #24 in section 2, but does anyone really think I'm going to sit there for 5 minutes after section 3 begins and not start it until I fill #24 in section 2? Are you kidding me? I did not get a chance to begin section 3 because my Exam was pulled away as soon as we began section 3, so the 5 minutes thing is a LIE!

Okay so if you are saying cancel my score then does that eliminate any misconduct possibility going on my record?

I feel taking my $165 and my two months I wasted studying to end up getting a cancellation is penalty enough man. This is just not right if I'm going to lose everything and have this adversely the rest of my life.

I messed up like an idiot, I'm sick and I have a doctor who will provide the evidence that he saw me the night before = I lose my money and get a cancellation for that test. I think that punishment fits the crime (if you would even call this travesty a crime). But putting a misconduct on my record is just not right man. Anyone who disagrees with this can act like they've never made a mistake and someone should be racked through the coals for any infraction, that's your opinion, I would disagree. I mean have a heart, I'm not asking to not suffer any consequences and get away scot free, but the punishment should be fair, and a misconduct on my record would not be fair in my opinion.

Make your own thread, and I'll give you my opinion on this. Not trying to be rude, but I want to respect OP's thread.

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Okay sorry Bellacose, if you can just PM me with your opinion I would appreciate it. and Intergo, I just PM you. Thank you guys, and sorry for the confusion.

smallbrownbear wrote:my experience is that every school is different. I can't speak for every case, but the policy seems to be to count zero credit hours attempted as three units. I went through this last cycle:

In MY case, I did exactly the same thing you did. Took classes in high school, retook them. My transcripts showed 0 credits attempted and zero earned.

I even went the extra mile of going through academic renewal, so that there would be an official note on my transcripts that those classes were not counted by my CC. This automatically brings the credits attempted and earned to zero, which was just my way of making double sure that those credit values (attempted/earned) were zero just in case it was only shown as zero on my unofficial transcripts because it was a retake or something.

ANyways. The LSAC counted those classes as three unit classes. The worst part? Two of them were actually one-unit classes. I even called, emailed, spent hours talking to the LSAC and giving them proof that that exact class (as evidenced by my school's catalog for that year, AND the identical class on my transcript, AND the current catalog, AND a note on my transcript from my school) was only one unit, and they still counted it as three units.

Long story short: it seems that all schools are different, but the LSAC will typically count any class with zero units attempted and earned as a three unit class. This is the norm. Some schools might have sneaky ways to avoid this, but the LSAC wouldn't tell me what they were. They wouldn't even confirm that any schools have been able to avoid this—I believe their exact words were, "we can't anticipate the rules that every school operated under, so there may be situations that differ. However, it is our policy to count all zero-credit-hour-attempted courses as three units and assign the listed grade the weight of three semester units".

I only include this because I don't want to make a blanket statement about all schools. But, in my experience, in 99% of cases they will count those as three units.

I'm happy to answer questions if you have them. I'm not an expert by any means, but i did do a TON of research on this, tons of internet scouring for posts on the subject, hours reading the LSAC policies, hours on the phone with LSAC, tons of emails from them, and then there's the non-recorded data of what I remember from our many phone conversations.....

Great post! I have a question though: if a course you are taking is a six credit course (i.e. it goes for two semesters), does LSAC count it as 3 credits or do they count it as 6?

Bellacose wrote:Wow, thank you so much for your thorough post. Everything you said makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why they would do that when their own policies regarding transcript evaluation lists the following situation as courses that are not counted:

"The original grade for a repeated course when the transcript does not show both the grade and the units for the original attempt. The total number of credits assigned to these grades will appear on the applicant's academic summary, but will not be included in the GPA calculation."

That is the exact same situation that you were in and the exact same situation that I am currently in. I don't understand why they have these rules if it appears that they don't really follow them.

Yeah, that was my main point of argument, as well. Their excuse was that "it DOES show how many units you attempted, it shows zero".

In their mind, showing zero is different from not showing how many units were attempted. a 'zero' indicates that there is a number, but it's an impossible number so they assign it three. What the provision for "not showing the original units attempted" is designed to do is to not calculate credits when the units attempted is literally NOT THERE. apparently, back in the day, some schools had policies to like destroy certain sections of some transcripts, or seal them, or strike them out, or do something else to make them completely unreadable in some special situations. In this case, the LSAC says they won't count them. But just showing Zero isn't sufficient, because, apparently, there is a number there.

I got basically this exact response in all my emails and phone calls, so it seems likely that this is actually their official policy, which is really, really sneaky and not at all clear.

To possibly answer your next objection in advance, my next move was to say, "great. You're right, there is a number there. Go ahead and calculate it in", thinking that bad grades times zero wouldn't hurt my gpa. THey said, "true, there's a number, but it's an impossible number. NO credit classes are worth zero credits, so our policy is to assume that they were three units".


That being said, I obviously don't understand all of the nuances in their weird little system. YOu may get lucky. I've heard stories of the lsac calculating people's gpa's much higher than they ought to, and of individual people winning individual arguments against individual LSAC employees to get small things changed. But, my experience with this particular issue, which is, I believe exactly the same as yours, is that they all seem to know the policy and are presenting a united front. SO i doubt it will wrk out in your favor. What I don't want is for anyone to COUNT on those grades not being calculated, and then being disappointed. IN my case, I was so sure that they wouldn't get counted, and it affected where i applied, the timing of my cycle, and my decision to use my one shot at academic renewal on those grades instead of improving my overall non-lsac GPA, and if I knew in advance that they would count these classes anyways, i would have changed a lot of things. Just be prepared for them to be calculated.

Yanngc33 wrote:
Great post! I have a question though: if a course you are taking is a six credit course (i.e. it goes for two semesters), does LSAC count it as 3 credits or do they count it as 6?

Hi, was this question directed at me? I'm so sorry, I should have mentioned: I'm not AT ALL an expert on lsac grading policies, or on admissions, or on anything, really. I'm just able to speak with cautious confidence about the particular matter in the OP because I recently went through the exact same issue, but that's about the extent of my knowledge. Sorry!

But, I will say that right off the cuff, I would guess (GUESS!) that is depends on where the letter grade is assigned. If the two semesters get separate letter grades, they will likely be counted as two- three unit classes. But if there's only one grade (i.e. if the first semester has no grade, but rather a strike or a note or something), it will likely be one six unit course. Also, on the fly like this, I can't immediately think of a situation in which it would matter?

smallbrownbear wrote:

Yanngc33 wrote:
Great post! I have a question though: if a course you are taking is a six credit course (i.e. it goes for two semesters), does LSAC count it as 3 credits or do they count it as 6?

Hi, was this question directed at me? I'm so sorry, I should have mentioned: I'm not AT ALL an expert on lsac grading policies, or on admissions, or on anything, really. I'm just able to speak with cautious confidence about the particular matter in the OP because I recently went through the exact same issue, but that's about the extent of my knowledge. Sorry!

But, I will say that right off the cuff, I would guess (GUESS!) that is depends on where the letter grade is assigned. If the two semesters get separate letter grades, they will likely be counted as two- three unit classes. But if there's only one grade (i.e. if the first semester has no grade, but rather a strike or a note or something), it will likely be one six unit course. Also, on the fly like this, I can't immediately think of a situation in which it would matter?

I'm guessing they're thinking about a scenario in which a 6 credit course is zeroed out because of a retake. In that case LSAC would count it as a 3 credit class, since they don't have any other information to go on.

midwest17 wrote:
I'm guessing they're thinking about a scenario in which a 6 credit course is zeroed out because of a retake. In that case LSAC would count it as a 3 credit class, since they don't have any other information to go on.

maybe. In that case, and again, i don't really know, my guess is that it would depend a lot on how it's notated on your transcript. For example, if they notate it as two classes over two semesters (ie. "fall2012-intro101-3units-A" and then "spring2013-intro101-3units-A"), they will likely count it as two classes of three units each. This will prbably be the case even if you are assigned the same grade for both semesters. In a situation where you only get one grade for both classes (i.e. "fall2012-intro101-3units-NO GRADE" and then "spring2013-intro101-3units-A"), the fall probably won't count at all and the spring will probably be assigned three units, bringing to total for the course to three units. Of course, if it's a class that only gets noted on your transcript once (i.e. spring2013-intro101-6units-A), and somehow or another it gets shown as zero units, they will likely calculate it as three units.

My experience is that the LSAC isn't interested so much in being "fair", because that would require more manpower to consider each individual case and a lot more research. My experience is that their job is to count AS MANY CLASSES AS POSSIBLE. If things are vague, or if there's anything in the language that leaves the door open for them to count a class, their job is to count it. Nothing against them, of course. But that's just how it works. They're trying to count classes, not help applicants. They are trying to put together the most complete academic history possible.

midwest17 wrote:

smallbrownbear wrote:

Yanngc33 wrote:
Great post! I have a question though: if a course you are taking is a six credit course (i.e. it goes for two semesters), does LSAC count it as 3 credits or do they count it as 6?

Hi, was this question directed at me? I'm so sorry, I should have mentioned: I'm not AT ALL an expert on lsac grading policies, or on admissions, or on anything, really. I'm just able to speak with cautious confidence about the particular matter in the OP because I recently went through the exact same issue, but that's about the extent of my knowledge. Sorry!

But, I will say that right off the cuff, I would guess (GUESS!) that is depends on where the letter grade is assigned. If the two semesters get separate letter grades, they will likely be counted as two- three unit classes. But if there's only one grade (i.e. if the first semester has no grade, but rather a strike or a note or something), it will likely be one six unit course. Also, on the fly like this, I can't immediately think of a situation in which it would matter?

I'm guessing they're thinking about a scenario in which a 6 credit course is zeroed out because of a retake. In that case LSAC would count it as a 3 credit class, since they don't have any other information to go on.

I'm not sure what they'd do, but they would have other information to go on - the number of credits noted for the retaken course. I'm not 100% certain, but that's a reasonable way to go about assigning those courses credits with a "0" listed for credits, so I'm going to say it's a distinct possibility it's what they do.

I had a couple classes that i negated under my school's academic renewal policies. The credits attempted and received were both zero, but the lsac counted them as three unit classes. the lsac literally had no other information, I did not retake those classes, it just showed as zero units attempted and zero units received and they had no other context. counted as thee units, which is fine(ish) because they were three units. Still sucked though, I thought for sure they wouldn't be able to count them. I also spent hours and hours and hours on the phone and tried all of the above tactics.
so, yeah. My feeling is that they just have a set policy that when the units attempted is zero, they count it as a three unit class?