Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
oski369
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:22 pm

Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby oski369 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:39 pm

I understand from my research on this forum that significant qualitative factors can compensate for below median LSAT scores and GPAs. I also recognize that most T-14 law school applicants have decent qualitative factors, such as some community service, club leadership, etc.
Being a Rutgers finance major with a 4.0, if I hit a 175 on the LSAT does that give me a fair chance at acceptance to HLS, and a virtual guarantee at CCN? Or is it necessary to allocate some time to E.C to have a realistic shot at HLS regardless of a 4.0/175?
By the way I'm Colombian, but from this site's discussion on URM, I would be correct to assume that this is irrelevant?
Sorry for beating a dead horse, but all related material on this site seems to be addressing whether soft factors can make you, not whether they can break you. Any insight is much appreciated.

User avatar
gobrue
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:58 am

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby gobrue » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:41 pm

if you look at LSN the answer is basically yes

Pancakes12
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:13 am

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby Pancakes12 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:47 pm

gobrue wrote:if you look at LSN the answer is basically yes


I wouldn't be so sure. LSN participants likely all have average softs. If some K-JD did nothing in college besides to to class, I wouldn't think a 4.0/175 is a lock at HLS.

Also, OP, I wouldn't bet on getting a 175 if you haven't ever seen a test before.

ltrego
Posts: 221
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:41 am

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby ltrego » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:04 am

Pancakes12 wrote:
gobrue wrote:if you look at LSN the answer is basically yes


I wouldn't be so sure. LSN participants likely all have average softs. If some K-JD did nothing in college besides to to class, I wouldn't think a 4.0/175 is a lock at HLS.


This. Imagine how blank that resume would be.

User avatar
BluePurgatory
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:43 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby BluePurgatory » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:06 am

Let's be realistic, I'm sure he can pull something out of thin air. Even if you went to a business fraternity meeting one time you can still write it down. The main thing above-average softs are good for, IMO, is having something to talk about in an interview. As long as your resume isn't a school, a GPA, and then nothing but language proficiencies and hobbies then as far as softs go, then you're in the same boat as the other 95% of students with perfectly average softs. Like you said, you only see things about softs making people because they can't really break people unless they're so uncreative that they can't fill a one page document with words. With a 175/4.0 I'd bet my savings you'd get into Harvard even though you didn't join the campus glee club.

User avatar
Balthy
Posts: 668
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:28 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby Balthy » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:13 am

gobrue wrote:if you look at LSN the answer is basically yes



I've noticed that many on LSN who underperformed their numbers disclose something like "no softs," and anecdotally my friends whose cycles went worst than expected were the ones who lacked in softs.. so maybe this is right. Also not sure if this book is credited but Susan Estrich in her law school admissions book basically says good softs can't get you admitted but no softs can def keep you out.

OP, are you currently working in finance? Thats not EC obviously but its a good soft. Id also recommend getting involved in something EC, even if its not a public service type thing and even if you wont have a leadership role.

User avatar
Balthy
Posts: 668
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:28 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby Balthy » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:15 am

BluePurgatory, your tar... Best show ever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzKPKUFYKkc

(sorry to throw this into your thread OP)

User avatar
BluePurgatory
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:43 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby BluePurgatory » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:37 am

superdingle2000 wrote:BluePurgatory, your tar... Best show ever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzKPKUFYKkc

(sorry to throw this into your thread OP)

That episode and the wedding episode are two of my favorites of all time. Every time I go to a wedding now all I can think of is Mark saying "I am heading for a wedding." It's honestly such a perfect show.

User avatar
RhymesLikeDimes
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:58 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:43 am

A shot? Of course. But, I do think HLS cares at least somewhat about softs. Their numbers have been virtually untouched by the downturn. They can still afford to turn away a handful of 3.9/175's who are lacking in certain areas.

Unfortunately, any data is going to be skewed by the fact that higher achieving students are more likely to have quality softs. I have read a handful of posts from people with ~3.9/~175 numbers who were shot down, and it seemed like a lack of everything but numbers is what kept them out. Obviously, that's anecdotal as hell, though.

Also, Peep Show is incredible. One of my favorite shows ever.

oski369
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:22 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby oski369 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:52 am

Thanks for the prompt feedback guys! I should have clarified, I've been part of a few clubs here and there, I just haven't done anything significant whatsoever (and no I don't work in finance); an admissions worker would know they were just resume fillers. I was a lackadaisical student in high school to say the least and so my first two years of college were spent transitioning into the hard worker I am today while being sure to get an A in every class.
The 175 is a goal that I may not achieve, but it's a goal I know I'm capable of (I've taken a practice test). I made this post because my plan was to dedicate the next few months strictly to LSAT while meeting my 4.0 studying requirements. While it would not necessarily detract from my LSAT score, I don't want to spend time on E.C at all unless its necessary to have a legitimate chance at HLS (due to the risk of stretching myself too thin while still not gaining anything impressive on my resume). After all, there is no point spending all my out of class time on LSATs if my current softs make me unqualified.

User avatar
Balthy
Posts: 668
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:28 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby Balthy » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:28 am

You should work a year or two after graduating and prep for the LSAT. It'll make you a stronger candidate for HYS and more attractive at OCI.. and just a good decision for other reasons.

User avatar
jbagelboy
Posts: 9635
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:14 am

The relevant determining factor will be, are there more than enough other above median candidates to select from to fill the class, adjusted for those who matriculate to YS or CC w/ $$$ over H? If no, then you are definitely in.

Traditionally, the answer has been yes, which is why some 3.9+/173+ candidates are WL'd or rejected each year, and your weak softs could preclude you. With decline in high LSAT takers, this or next cycle could see a shift for H where to get 550 students and maintain medians they'll lose their discretionary qualitative veto - presumably they would rather lower standards in other areas than lose the 173, but I cant read Jessica's mind any more than you can.

Either way, come back with a real LSAT score and we can legit chance you. One PT doesnt tell us very much.

User avatar
midwest17
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:27 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby midwest17 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:02 am

Personally, I wouldn't want to risk having nothing on my résumé.

oski369
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:22 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby oski369 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:00 pm

jbagelboy wrote:The relevant determining factor will be, are there more than enough other above median candidates to select from to fill the class, adjusted for those who matriculate to YS or CC w/ $$$ over H? If no, then you are definitely in.

Traditionally, the answer has been yes, which is why some 3.9+/173+ candidates are WL'd or rejected each year, and your weak softs could preclude you. With decline in high LSAT takers, this or next cycle could see a shift for H where to get 550 students and maintain medians they'll lose their discretionary qualitative veto - presumably they would rather lower standards in other areas than lose the 173, but I cant read Jessica's mind any more than you can.

Either way, come back with a real LSAT score and we can legit chance you. One PT doesnt tell us very much.


Thank you, I was just looking for insight to base my next 6 months on; based on what I've heard I'm going to go all in on the LSAT and hope the river doesn't disappoint. I just needed to hear that if I reach my LSAT goal it won't be for nothing without softs. My post-test chances won't matter to me, there's nothing I can do once application season is around the corner.

User avatar
Robbin Blue
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby Robbin Blue » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:24 pm

superdingle2000 wrote:You should work a year or two after graduating and prep for the LSAT. It'll make you a stronger candidate for HYS and more attractive at OCI.. and just a good decision for other reasons.


This. Also, lol at "I've taken a practice test" + Spending the "next few months" studying. Take a year, work, grow up a little bit, and get something on your resume besides a couple of clubs (because I'm being honest here, no one cares about that even a little bit). You'll thank us.

oski369
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:22 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby oski369 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:50 am

Robbin Blue wrote:
superdingle2000 wrote:You should work a year or two after graduating and prep for the LSAT. It'll make you a stronger candidate for HYS and more attractive at OCI.. and just a good decision for other reasons.


This. Also, lol at "I've taken a practice test" + Spending the "next few months" studying. Take a year, work, grow up a little bit, and get something on your resume besides a couple of clubs (because I'm being honest here, no one cares about that even a little bit). You'll thank us.


I know my clubs don't mean a damn thing except resume fillers, but is postponing my law career doing grunt work in the financial industry really worth it if I end up having the numbers to have a shot at HLS without it? Are you recommending this based on the assumption that I probably won't end up with a 175/4.0, or do you think I should regardless?

I know based on the info I've given I don't sound like someone who will achieve those numbers, but I scored a 166 on my first practice test after reading the 3 power score bibles, and I really will do all 70 practice tests between Christmas and June. I don't see a reason to take more than a few months to study based on there being so few practice tests available for my OCD study habits.

User avatar
Robbin Blue
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby Robbin Blue » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:31 am

oski369 wrote:
Robbin Blue wrote:
superdingle2000 wrote:You should work a year or two after graduating and prep for the LSAT. It'll make you a stronger candidate for HYS and more attractive at OCI.. and just a good decision for other reasons.


This. Also, lol at "I've taken a practice test" + Spending the "next few months" studying. Take a year, work, grow up a little bit, and get something on your resume besides a couple of clubs (because I'm being honest here, no one cares about that even a little bit). You'll thank us.


I know my clubs don't mean a damn thing except resume fillers, but is postponing my law career doing grunt work in the financial industry really worth it if I end up having the numbers to have a shot at HLS without it? Are you recommending this based on the assumption that I probably won't end up with a 175/4.0, or do you think I should regardless?

I know based on the info I've given I don't sound like someone who will achieve those numbers, but I scored a 166 on my first practice test after reading the 3 power score bibles, and I really will do all 70 practice tests between Christmas and June. I don't see a reason to take more than a few months to study based on there being so few practice tests available for my OCD study habits.


Haha, Christmas to June is a bit more than "a few months", but no worries. I'm saying you should take time off for a few reasons.

Harvard is trying to go the way of Northwestern, they really want applicants to have work experience before starting there. Of course plenty of people get in without work experience, but it is a pretty strong selling point.

You determining your study habits based off of Harvard specifically with no justification of the school makes me think you want Harvard purely because it's prestigious. Which is a poor reason to choose a school and an even poorer reason to determine how much you feel like studying for the LSAT. It also reeks of K-JD, which is not a good look.

175 is at the 99.4th percentile of test takers. I'm not saying you won't get that score, but I am saying that saying you're going to get a 175 based off of one practice test (which wasn't even really a diagnostic since you read the Bibles beforehand) is naive.

Finally, I recommended that you take time off because it's just a good thing to do. When else in your life will you have time to waste without worrying about your crushing law school debt? As soon as you graduate law school, you'll immediately start work and it'll hopefully not be until retirement that you will have an entire year to not freak out about work or debt. Besides that, considering the state of employment at this time, more time spent before entering law school means more time before looking for a job. Which is a good thing.

Even if you do end up with a 4.0/175 (I doubt it, but weirder things have happened), I would still recommend you take a year off because your question makes me think you are prestige hunting, naive about the amount of work it takes to study for the LSAT, and would actually benefit from taking a year off. I haven't met anyone yet who regretting taking gap years.

Sorry if I came off as harsh or blunt. If you're in your junior year of college now, you can decide about the gap year thing later. For now, just focus on the LSAT. Your numbers alone will probably get you HLS, if you can pull off a 175. Best of luck.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:52 pm

Back in the way more competitive days of 2008, I was accepted into one of CCN and WL at HLS with a half-scholly with a 175, 3.8, and literally no college volunteer work or extracurriculars besides my work-study and summer jobs. If you attend, you will probably feel a bit out of place given what some of your classmates have done.

User avatar
lawschool22
Posts: 3875
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:47 pm

Re: Will numbers ALONE give me a shot at HLS?

Postby lawschool22 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:30 pm

Robbin Blue wrote:Harvard is trying to go the way of Northwestern, they really want applicants to have work experience before starting there. Of course plenty of people get in without work experience, but it is a pretty strong selling point.


Based on the focus of my JS1 and the questions I got, it definitely seems like this is the case. They were very interested in my work experience.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSNbot Media and 1 guest