which schools are worth paying for?

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BillsFan9907
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which schools are worth paying for?

Postby BillsFan9907 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:22 pm

I know obviously that HYS are worth the debt. How about CCN? Georgetown? Penn? Etc

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WaltGrace83
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby WaltGrace83 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:31 pm

I think this really depends on the situation of the particular person.

I don't necessarily think YHS actually are worth going into $200+ grand in debt for. Why? Well I would much rather take a full ride at Penn than go for YHS without any aid (which may not necessarily be that crazy of an idea).

Also I think it depends on the person's LSAT "potential." If I scored a 162 163 169 then got into Penn or UVA or Duke with a $5,000 scholarship or something, I think that it would be a good option, knowing that I really have tried my best to get the best score possible. However, if I got a 169, there is no way in hell I am paying that much money for those schools - I am retaking at LEAST once!

It also depends on what one wants in a career. Are you a big law type guy? Well maybe having big law type debt can be okay. Would you not touch big law with a 10 foot pole? No way should you go into six figure debt.

EDIT: also, Georgetown?! Regardless of the situation I would undoubtedly say NO for that school just because of its market and its placement (great school though, just not for that much in debt).

BillsFan9907
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby BillsFan9907 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:46 pm

Wow - explain about georgetown

HYSenberg
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby HYSenberg » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:18 pm

I think gtown is overpriced for sure, but they do have a great LRAP program for those who have faith in taking on a ridiculous amount of debt.

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WaltGrace83
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby WaltGrace83 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:24 am

Seoulless wrote:Wow - explain about georgetown


I am only a 0L. I admittedly am not an expert. However (as many other TLSers express this on a seemingly daily basis), Georgetown simply doesn't place nearly as well as the rest of the T14. If I were to answer this question from my own situation, I don't think I would ever pay sticker. From my research, Penn with a scholarship seems like it would fit my career goals: PHENOMENAL placement, great location, awesome portability, etc meanwhile the same numbers that would get me the Penn deal may land me YHS. The question is, would I sacrifice (a lot of) money just so I can say I went to YHS? The placement of these schools seems nearly identical.

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hichvichwoh
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby hichvichwoh » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:32 am

WaltGrace83 wrote:
Seoulless wrote:Wow - explain about georgetown


I am only a 0L. I admittedly am not an expert. However (as many other TLSers express this on a seemingly daily basis), Georgetown simply doesn't place nearly as well as the rest of the T14. If I were to answer this question from my own situation, I don't think I would ever pay sticker. From my research, Penn with a scholarship seems like it would fit my career goals: PHENOMENAL placement, great location, awesome portability, etc meanwhile the same numbers that would get me the Penn deal may land me YHS. The question is, would I sacrifice (a lot of) money just so I can say I went to YHS? The placement of these schools seems nearly identical.


I'm glad you narrowed this down to your situation. GULC can be a good choice even at sticker for some people, especially those completely dead set on LRAP-eligible jobs

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:44 am

WaltGrace83 wrote:I don't necessarily think YHS actually are worth going into $200+ grand in debt for. Why? Well I would much rather take a full ride at Penn than go for YHS without any aid (which may not necessarily be that crazy of an idea).
...
It also depends on what one wants in a career. Are you a big law type guy? Well maybe having big law type debt can be okay. Would you not touch big law with a 10 foot pole? No way should you go into six figure debt.

That's exactly the wrong way around.

YHS have the best LRAP programs. So, unless you're planning on big law or you get a full scholarship somewhere else, you're better off going to YHS. Yale, for example, will pay your entire student loan if you make less than about $50,000 per year. They'll pay a portion of your loan if you make less than about $90,000. They don't care what you do - you can work at Walmart and they'll pay your loan for you.

http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/finaid_COAPinfo.htm

With a big law salary, YHS won't pay a dollar of your loan, so I can maybe see the argument for the lower t14 with $$$ then. But big law is almost guaranteed at HYS, and much less likely at, for example, Georgetown. The question is how much you're willing to gamble an almost guaranteed $170,000 starting salary to avoid $130,000 in debt (since that's roughly what you'll pay at YHS, unless your parents are wealthy).

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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby hawkeye10 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:49 am

.

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WaltGrace83
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby WaltGrace83 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:49 am

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
WaltGrace83 wrote:I don't necessarily think YHS actually are worth going into $200+ grand in debt for. Why? Well I would much rather take a full ride at Penn than go for YHS without any aid (which may not necessarily be that crazy of an idea).
...
It also depends on what one wants in a career. Are you a big law type guy? Well maybe having big law type debt can be okay. Would you not touch big law with a 10 foot pole? No way should you go into six figure debt.

That's exactly the wrong way around.

YHS have the best LRAP programs. So, unless you're planning on big law or you get a full scholarship somewhere else, you're better off going to YHS. Yale, for example, will pay your entire student loan if you make less than about $50,000 per year. They'll pay a portion of your loan if you make less than about $90,000. They don't care what you do - you can work at Walmart and they'll pay your loan for you.

http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/finaid_COAPinfo.htm

With a big law salary, YHS won't pay a dollar of your loan, so I can maybe see the argument for the lower t14 with $$$ then. But big law is almost guaranteed at HYS, and much less likely at, for example, Georgetown. The question is how much you're willing to gamble an almost guaranteed $170,000 starting salary to avoid $130,000 in debt (since that's roughly what you'll pay at YHS, unless your parents are wealthy).


I was talking about big law and only my situation and my career goals. I am just saying that I will debt-adverse (if I have the opportunity to be :D )

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Young Marino
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby Young Marino » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:21 am

What about Northwestern? It seems like half of their grads end up in biglaw anyway. Would that justify paying sticker at NU?

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Birdnals
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby Birdnals » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:40 am

Young Marino wrote:What about Northwestern? It seems like half of their grads end up in biglaw anyway. Would that justify paying sticker at NU?


I personally had this choice and decided against it because the cost of living in Chicago area is pretty big factor and can raise it up pretty substantially. While I think over 50% actually land in biglaw/fed clerkships I just personally don't think it's worth it. They have a good LRAP though IIRC.

I think having a 20-30% shot at biglaw/clerkship and less than 100K debt at graduation is better than having a 50% shot at biglaw at close to 300K total debt at graduation. But that is just me personally. It really is just how debt adverse you are.

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tigersaresexy
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby tigersaresexy » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:21 pm

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I think anything in t-14 is worth sticker. TLS tends to be a little snobby (Oh, I'd never pay money to go to this TOP TEN LAW SCHOOL), but I see education as a gamble. I mean, I paid for undergrad (200k-ish) thinking that I would get a good job. I didn't. Was it the end of the world? No, I rallied.

I would pay sticker for a top law school because an impressive JD, even from Georgetown (shudder) would put me in a good position to get a good job, and that's the best thing I can do for my future.

But hey, that's just my opinion. I can totally respect someone who doesn't think 200k loans are worth it in any circumstance.

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WaltGrace83
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby WaltGrace83 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:22 pm

It seems that, regardless of any knowledge any one of us has (or, in my case, probably doesn't have), it all comes down to the person. It would be great if choosing a law school was cookie cutter. It would also be great if the state of a legal career was more stable and predictable. I think this thread is really just a bunch of rampant speculation which, though fruitful in some ways, will never provide an answer to the OP's question. I do love talking about such topics though :)

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midwest17
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby midwest17 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:23 pm

tigersaresexy wrote:I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I think anything in t-14 is worth sticker. TLS tends to be a little snobby (Oh, I'd never pay money to go to this TOP TEN LAW SCHOOL), but I see education as a gamble. I mean, I paid for undergrad (200k-ish) thinking that I would get a good job. I didn't. Was it the end of the world? No, I rallied.

I would pay sticker for a top law school because an impressive JD, even from Georgetown (shudder) would put me in a good position to get a good job, and that's the best thing I can do for my future.

But hey, that's just my opinion. I can totally respect someone who doesn't think 200k loans are worth it in any circumstance.


Of course education is a gamble. The question is whether it's a *good* gamble, or whether it's akin to buying a really expensive lottery ticket.

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outlawscr10
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby outlawscr10 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:51 pm

To be honest, it should take most people anywhere from 10-25 years to pay off their debt. It's going to be a while whether a person can realistically judge whether it was a good investment or not. Unfortunately, I don't think a forum filled with prospective and current law students is experienced enough to answer this question. A career lasts a long time.

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midwest17
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby midwest17 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:21 pm

outlawscr10 wrote:To be honest, it should take most people anywhere from 10-25 years to pay off their debt. It's going to be a while whether a person can realistically judge whether it was a good investment or not. Unfortunately, I don't think a forum filled with prospective and current law students is experienced enough to answer this question. A career lasts a long time.


Determining whether it was a good investment for a given person is basically impossible, whether they're 30 or 60. What's relevant are average outcomes and variance.

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outlawscr10
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby outlawscr10 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:31 pm

midwest17 wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:To be honest, it should take most people anywhere from 10-25 years to pay off their debt. It's going to be a while whether a person can realistically judge whether it was a good investment or not. Unfortunately, I don't think a forum filled with prospective and current law students is experienced enough to answer this question. A career lasts a long time.


Determining whether it was a good investment for a given person is basically impossible, whether they're 30 or 60. What's relevant are average outcomes and variance.


The issue is that the vast majority of data we use is based on employment within 9 months of graduation. At 9 months, one might determine that law school was a bad investment. After 15 years--and that's more relevant when you're dealing with a career investment--that determination might have completely shifted.

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midwest17
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby midwest17 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:35 pm

outlawscr10 wrote:
midwest17 wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:To be honest, it should take most people anywhere from 10-25 years to pay off their debt. It's going to be a while whether a person can realistically judge whether it was a good investment or not. Unfortunately, I don't think a forum filled with prospective and current law students is experienced enough to answer this question. A career lasts a long time.


Determining whether it was a good investment for a given person is basically impossible, whether they're 30 or 60. What's relevant are average outcomes and variance.


The issue is that the vast majority of data we use is based on employment within 9 months of graduation. At 9 months, one might determine that law school was a bad investment. After 15 years--and that's more relevant when you're dealing with a career investment--that determination might have completely shifted.


Right, but that's a problem with the data available, not the people on the forum. My point is that you don't want to rely on anecdotal evidence from the people who succeeded and are still practicing law 30 years after graduation.

Anyways, wasn't there a study last summer that looked at career earnings? I may be misremembering exactly when it came out. My recollection is that they found that law school was worth it for people who had outcomes in the top 75% or so, but that might also be wrong.

The thing to remember, though, is that even if it's worth it in the long run, it may mean being in huge amounts of debt for a long time, which can be tough even if you end up with a net profit.

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RhymesLikeDimes
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:38 pm

I think all of the T14 are defensible at sticker, with the exception of Georgetown. Hearing from grads, it seems like the school simply writes-off the bottom half of their insanely over-sized classes. The percentage of students getting BL or Clerkships is well under 50. That's not worth $270K to me.

You're not Harvard, GU. Your class size should be 250-300, max.

Right now, the main problem with trying to look at long-term career outcomes is that people who graduated from law school 20 or 30 years ago had a MUCH easier time than we will.

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outlawscr10
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby outlawscr10 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:42 pm

midwest17 wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:
midwest17 wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:To be honest, it should take most people anywhere from 10-25 years to pay off their debt. It's going to be a while whether a person can realistically judge whether it was a good investment or not. Unfortunately, I don't think a forum filled with prospective and current law students is experienced enough to answer this question. A career lasts a long time.


Determining whether it was a good investment for a given person is basically impossible, whether they're 30 or 60. What's relevant are average outcomes and variance.


The issue is that the vast majority of data we use is based on employment within 9 months of graduation. At 9 months, one might determine that law school was a bad investment. After 15 years--and that's more relevant when you're dealing with a career investment--that determination might have completely shifted.


Right, but that's a problem with the data available, not the people on the forum. My point is that you don't want to rely on anecdotal evidence from the people who succeeded and are still practicing law 30 years after graduation.

Anyways, wasn't there a study last summer that looked at career earnings? I may be misremembering exactly when it came out. My recollection is that they found that law school was worth it for people who had outcomes in the top 75% or so, but that might also be wrong.

The thing to remember, though, is that even if it's worth it in the long run, it may mean being in huge amounts of debt for a long time, which can be tough even if you end up with a net profit.


I would agree with that, but just add that when people on the forum are using the limited data available to make more significant career determinations, they're perhaps overstepping.

http://www.businessinsider.com/lawyers- ... -us-2012-7
Still the 4th highest paid profession in the US.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:18 pm

Well, 5th highest. Plus, the amount of money you can make practicing as a lawyer doesn't say anything about how reasonable it is to take on lots of debt in the hope of becoming a lawyer (NFL players are really highly paid but getting there isn't exactly easy).

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outlawscr10
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby outlawscr10 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:43 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Well, 5th highest. Plus, the amount of money you can make practicing as a lawyer doesn't say anything about how reasonable it is to take on lots of debt in the hope of becoming a lawyer (NFL players are really highly paid but getting there isn't exactly easy).


The story says fourth--am I missing something?

You're right though, getting a job is half the battle.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:52 pm

The story says there are 4 jobs that pay more than being a lawyer:

Only 4 Jobs In America Pay More Than Being A Lawyer

Lawyers are the fifth-highest paid professionals in the country, MSNBC reported Tuesday

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outlawscr10
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Re: which schools are worth paying for?

Postby outlawscr10 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:54 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:The story says there are 4 jobs that pay more than being a lawyer:

Only 4 Jobs In America Pay More Than Being A Lawyer

Lawyers are the fifth-highest paid professionals in the country, MSNBC reported Tuesday


Odd. The toolbar at the top says, "Lawyers Are 4th Most Highly Paid in US". 5th is right though. Cheers.




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