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anyriotgirl
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby anyriotgirl » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:13 pm

alexjinye wrote:
everything_bagel wrote:OP's decision makes me sad. I think learning > maximizing a great uGPA, but even if you disagree, I went to a notoriously tough LAC (whatever that means these days) and even there a person could pull off an awesome GPA no problem in a few majors, or could work closely with professors to at least improve in the rest of them. It's pretty typical to get poor grades first year and then improve.

FWIW re: Boalt's list, even if it's old, I've heard from our law advisor and a couple of professors that Boalt still gives us a boost because of this. Kind of obviates the traditional "UG doesn't matter" logic, IMO.


haha. I am a little bit sad too by going to a lesser school. But that doesn't mean I am not challenging myself academically. I am taking overloaded courses with many reading and writing intensive assignments. One perk by going here is I can take like a couple of law school class every semester. I get a lot of chances to talk to my professors too. This can definitely prepare me for law school.
In the past few years, I came to realize that most of the time it is not your school can make you who you are, but it is yourself who make all of this happen.
I paid full tuition to my LAC, which I later realize is so dumb. The undergrad education seriously doesn't worth this much of money. My parents can cover that, but I decide why not spend these money to do something else, such as traveling or buy a fancy car lol..
At the end of the day, I don't think ASU will really limit me if I want to go to law school. (the only concern is my connection in undergrad and my undergrad school reputation during OCI? But that's not that important as far as I know) So, I am generally happy with my decision.



you know those law classes won't count right? ABA rules

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alexjinye
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby alexjinye » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:15 pm

crazycanuck wrote:Not sure of this has been discussed yet, but the OP might want to consider the major. Majors that have a lot of papers and long written question can be more difficult as the grade depends a lot on who is marking it, the time of day they are marking it, etc. I would recommend a more black and white major such as accounting where a question is either right or wrong. This reduces a lot of the guess work with trying to figure out what a marker wants and if you study it enough and do enough practice questions it's pretty easy to get straight As.

Just my $0.02.


Yes. Thank you for the input. I looked into this closely before I finally made my mind to transfer. I found religious study to be a major that I can achieve higher grades. That's why I am saying I expect my LSAC gpa to be at 3.98-4.0 range.

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alexjinye
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby alexjinye » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:19 pm

anyriotgirl wrote:
alexjinye wrote:
everything_bagel wrote:OP's decision makes me sad. I think learning > maximizing a great uGPA, but even if you disagree, I went to a notoriously tough LAC (whatever that means these days) and even there a person could pull off an awesome GPA no problem in a few majors, or could work closely with professors to at least improve in the rest of them. It's pretty typical to get poor grades first year and then improve.

FWIW re: Boalt's list, even if it's old, I've heard from our law advisor and a couple of professors that Boalt still gives us a boost because of this. Kind of obviates the traditional "UG doesn't matter" logic, IMO.


haha. I am a little bit sad too by going to a lesser school. But that doesn't mean I am not challenging myself academically. I am taking overloaded courses with many reading and writing intensive assignments. One perk by going here is I can take like a couple of law school class every semester. I get a lot of chances to talk to my professors too. This can definitely prepare me for law school.
In the past few years, I came to realize that most of the time it is not your school can make you who you are, but it is yourself who make all of this happen.
I paid full tuition to my LAC, which I later realize is so dumb. The undergrad education seriously doesn't worth this much of money. My parents can cover that, but I decide why not spend these money to do something else, such as traveling or buy a fancy car lol..
At the end of the day, I don't think ASU will really limit me if I want to go to law school. (the only concern is my connection in undergrad and my undergrad school reputation during OCI? But that's not that important as far as I know) So, I am generally happy with my decision.



you know those law classes won't count right? ABA rules


!!Great to know this. I plan to take law classes only designed for undergraduate students and to take real law school classes in my last semester. But that's still a nice advice, I should look into the rules, just in case they don't count undergraduate level law classes either...

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alexjinye
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby alexjinye » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:23 pm

anyriotgirl wrote:
alexjinye wrote:
everything_bagel wrote:OP's decision makes me sad. I think learning > maximizing a great uGPA, but even if you disagree, I went to a notoriously tough LAC (whatever that means these days) and even there a person could pull off an awesome GPA no problem in a few majors, or could work closely with professors to at least improve in the rest of them. It's pretty typical to get poor grades first year and then improve.

FWIW re: Boalt's list, even if it's old, I've heard from our law advisor and a couple of professors that Boalt still gives us a boost because of this. Kind of obviates the traditional "UG doesn't matter" logic, IMO.


haha. I am a little bit sad too by going to a lesser school. But that doesn't mean I am not challenging myself academically. I am taking overloaded courses with many reading and writing intensive assignments. One perk by going here is I can take like a couple of law school class every semester. I get a lot of chances to talk to my professors too. This can definitely prepare me for law school.
In the past few years, I came to realize that most of the time it is not your school can make you who you are, but it is yourself who make all of this happen.
I paid full tuition to my LAC, which I later realize is so dumb. The undergrad education seriously doesn't worth this much of money. My parents can cover that, but I decide why not spend these money to do something else, such as traveling or buy a fancy car lol..
At the end of the day, I don't think ASU will really limit me if I want to go to law school. (the only concern is my connection in undergrad and my undergrad school reputation during OCI? But that's not that important as far as I know) So, I am generally happy with my decision.



you know those law classes won't count right? ABA rules



Could you provide the link to those ABA rules plz? I've never heard of it. I only looked at LSAC rules in the past.

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anyriotgirl
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby anyriotgirl » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:27 pm

alexjinye wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:
alexjinye wrote:
everything_bagel wrote:OP's decision makes me sad. I think learning > maximizing a great uGPA, but even if you disagree, I went to a notoriously tough LAC (whatever that means these days) and even there a person could pull off an awesome GPA no problem in a few majors, or could work closely with professors to at least improve in the rest of them. It's pretty typical to get poor grades first year and then improve.

FWIW re: Boalt's list, even if it's old, I've heard from our law advisor and a couple of professors that Boalt still gives us a boost because of this. Kind of obviates the traditional "UG doesn't matter" logic, IMO.


haha. I am a little bit sad too by going to a lesser school. But that doesn't mean I am not challenging myself academically. I am taking overloaded courses with many reading and writing intensive assignments. One perk by going here is I can take like a couple of law school class every semester. I get a lot of chances to talk to my professors too. This can definitely prepare me for law school.
In the past few years, I came to realize that most of the time it is not your school can make you who you are, but it is yourself who make all of this happen.
I paid full tuition to my LAC, which I later realize is so dumb. The undergrad education seriously doesn't worth this much of money. My parents can cover that, but I decide why not spend these money to do something else, such as traveling or buy a fancy car lol..
At the end of the day, I don't think ASU will really limit me if I want to go to law school. (the only concern is my connection in undergrad and my undergrad school reputation during OCI? But that's not that important as far as I know) So, I am generally happy with my decision.



you know those law classes won't count right? ABA rules



Could you provide the link to those ABA rules plz? I've never heard of it. I only looked at LSAC rules in the past.


When I was at an admitted student week someone asked about transferring credits and that's what they were told by the dean. I never looked further into it bc it doesn't affect me.

Chrstgtr
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby Chrstgtr » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:31 pm

Yes there is grade inflation at top schools but there is also a higher quality of student. The worst student at Harvard is still in all likelihood a better student than an "A-student" at directional state college. Not a guarantee but obviously there is some inherent difference between the students that feed into each school on average. With that same logic a student at a higher ranked school may be able to stand out easier at a lower ranked school and thereby receive higher grades even though a lower percentage of students at those lower ranked schools actually receive higher grades.

To answer the OPs actual question, no. That would be hard to explain to an admissions committee, you lose all connections (social and academic), and most importantly you are betting the house on going to law school (and then subsequently being successful in law school to get a good job to pay off debt) when you are already concerned about your application. Way way too much risk.

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alexjinye
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby alexjinye » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:40 pm

When I was at an admitted student week someone asked about transferring credits and that's what they were told by the dean. I never looked further into it bc it doesn't affect me.


Ok, I want to take those classes out of my interest and hopefully raise my 1L gpa by learning them in prior, so that I can find a good intern in my 1L summer. I don't need to transfer those gpa into law school though
Last edited by alexjinye on Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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alexjinye
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby alexjinye » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:44 pm

Chrstgtr wrote:Yes there is grade inflation at top schools but there is also a higher quality of student. The worst student at Harvard is still in all likelihood a better student than an "A-student" at directional state college. Not a guarantee but obviously there is some inherent difference between the students that feed into each school on average. With that same logic a student at a higher ranked school may be able to stand out easier at a lower ranked school and thereby receive higher grades even though a lower percentage of students at those lower ranked schools actually receive higher grades.

To answer the OPs actual question, no. That would be hard to explain to an admissions committee, you lose all connections (social and academic), and most importantly you are betting the house on going to law school (and then subsequently being successful in law school to get a good job to pay off debt) when you are already concerned about your application. Way way too much risk.



I don't think what you said is true, but I don't want to argue too much about this either.
I do have concerns about transferring. The way to avoid those risks is to work hard and become a genuinely qualified student.

Cellar-door
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby Cellar-door » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:26 pm

iamgeorgebush wrote:
Cellar-door wrote:I'd love to see the methodology and data on that study.
For example, as recently as this year the median at Harvard (10th hardest by their methodology) is an A- and the most commonly awarded grade is an A. http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/ ... on-mode-a/

Yale is also on that list, and from the same article, apparently from 2010-2012 62% of all grades given out were A- or better.

Edit- Harvard actually had to cap the number of straight As that professors could give out at 35% for regular classes and 55% for independent studies and the number of students receiving latin honors was capped at 60% after they were somewhat embarrassed by an article in the Boston Globe that 91% of one year's graduating class graduated with Honors.

Considering that most people who go to Harvard and Yale had straight A's during high school, is it really that surprising that they continue to get A's in college? If you were to take an average Harvard or Yale student and put her at the typical state school, I bet she'd do even better than at Harvard. Just look at the OP, who transferred from a tough LAC to a state school and is now doing much much better.

Sure this could be true, but Princeton for example has students with as good or better grades in high school and has a much lower median GPA than Yale or Harvard for the most recent years available. Obviously either the study had REALLY old data (like 20 years) or their methodology was crazy as shit.

tskela
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby tskela » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:05 pm

OP, I think it was really smart of you to transfer.

"Challenging oneself" is all well and good until it results in hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. If OP pulls off a near-perfect GPA and does well on the LSAT, it could mean a full, named scholarship at a T14 (maybe even T6). The money situation would be nowhere near as good if he had worked his ass off for <3.7 at the tougher UG. Not to mention, he would have had less time to work, do internships, explore interests and just have fun.

Not to mention, there's something to be said for not burning yourself out before law school. No need to kill yourself to get good grades in college. Plenty of opportunity for that later.

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alexjinye
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby alexjinye » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:39 pm

tskela wrote:OP, I think it was really smart of you to transfer.

"Challenging oneself" is all well and good until it results in hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. If OP pulls off a near-perfect GPA and does well on the LSAT, it could mean a full, named scholarship at a T14 (maybe even T6). The money situation would be nowhere near as good if he had worked his ass off for <3.7 at the tougher UG. Not to mention, he would have had less time to work, do internships, explore interests and just have fun.

Not to mention, there's something to be said for not burning yourself out before law school. No need to kill yourself to get good grades in college. Plenty of opportunity for that later.



This.
Anyway, I feel this is one of the bravest and wisest decisions I made recently. I dunno why some people are so captious on this forum. Maybe it is just the way law students answer a question....
Last edited by alexjinye on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:11 pm

Chrstgtr wrote:The worst student at Harvard is still in all likelihood a better student than an "A-student" at directional state college.

Yeah, this isn't actually true. I've taught at a bunch of places. The smartest students at any school are as smart as any students anywhere. It's the distribution of ability/preparation that varies by institution.

chicaicai
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby chicaicai » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:27 am

:D transfer if you are seriously determined to go to law school.

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alexjinye
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby alexjinye » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:11 pm

la
Last edited by alexjinye on Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Moneytrees
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby Moneytrees » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:20 pm

iamgeorgebush wrote:
hcrimson2014 wrote:To echo the above poster, CAL, supposedly the most prestigious UC campus, had a GPA median at 3.20, whereas the GPA median for UCSD was something like 3.01 while Harvard college, the YLS of undergrad education, actually boasted a gpa median close to 3.5. Many less prestigious institutions actually implement harder curves than the more renowned ones. So you need to do the necessary research, transferring from Harvard to Duke probably won't make an impact on your grades.

The above argument is flawed because...

The students are Harvard, etc. could be are of a higher caliber than the students at UCSD, etc., so of course they're going to get better grades. You think a Harvard student with a 3.4 or a UC Berkeley student with a 3.2 would get a 3.0 at UCSD? :roll:


If you think the intellectual difference between a student at UCSD and Harvard is huge, you are deluding yourself. UCSD has several better ranked programs than Harvard. It's a major research university, and it's classes are really competitive. UCSD's engineering school (Jacobs) and Neuroscience programs are arguably the best in the country. It could very well be the case that a student with a 3.5 at Harvard would get a 3.1 in certain majors at UCSD.

People like you give schools like Harvard a bad name by making the above referenced claim. It's Harvard, we get it- it's the best school in the nation. But that doesn't mean you don't also have grade inflation.

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iamgeorgebush
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby iamgeorgebush » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:41 pm

Cellar-door wrote:
iamgeorgebush wrote:
Cellar-door wrote:I'd love to see the methodology and data on that study.
For example, as recently as this year the median at Harvard (10th hardest by their methodology) is an A- and the most commonly awarded grade is an A. http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/ ... on-mode-a/

Yale is also on that list, and from the same article, apparently from 2010-2012 62% of all grades given out were A- or better.

Edit- Harvard actually had to cap the number of straight As that professors could give out at 35% for regular classes and 55% for independent studies and the number of students receiving latin honors was capped at 60% after they were somewhat embarrassed by an article in the Boston Globe that 91% of one year's graduating class graduated with Honors.

Considering that most people who go to Harvard and Yale had straight A's during high school, is it really that surprising that they continue to get A's in college? If you were to take an average Harvard or Yale student and put her at the typical state school, I bet she'd do even better than at Harvard. Just look at the OP, who transferred from a tough LAC to a state school and is now doing much much better.

Sure this could be true, but Princeton for example has students with as good or better grades in high school and has a much lower median GPA than Yale or Harvard for the most recent years available. Obviously either the study had REALLY old data (like 20 years) or their methodology was crazy as shit.

This is true, there are definitely differences among top schools. Princeton might have higher grading standards than Yale, which might have higher grading standards than Brown. Still doesn't change the big picture, though, which is that on average, the quality of those schools' students probably accounts for their higher grades more than grade inflation does.

Moneytrees wrote:
iamgeorgebush wrote:
hcrimson2014 wrote:To echo the above poster, CAL, supposedly the most prestigious UC campus, had a GPA median at 3.20, whereas the GPA median for UCSD was something like 3.01 while Harvard college, the YLS of undergrad education, actually boasted a gpa median close to 3.5. Many less prestigious institutions actually implement harder curves than the more renowned ones. So you need to do the necessary research, transferring from Harvard to Duke probably won't make an impact on your grades.

The above argument is flawed because...

The students are Harvard, etc. could be are of a higher caliber than the students at UCSD, etc., so of course they're going to get better grades. You think a Harvard student with a 3.4 or a UC Berkeley student with a 3.2 would get a 3.0 at UCSD? :roll:


If you think the intellectual difference between a student at UCSD and Harvard is huge, you are deluding yourself. UCSD has several better ranked programs than Harvard. It's a major research university, and it's classes are really competitive. UCSD's engineering school (Jacobs) and Neuroscience programs are arguably the best in the country. It could very well be the case that a student with a 3.5 at Harvard would get a 3.1 in certain majors at UCSD.

People like you give schools like Harvard a bad name by making the above referenced claim. It's Harvard, we get it- it's the best school in the nation. But that doesn't mean you don't also have grade inflation.

A few things:

(1) Yes, UCSD is an excellent research university, and perhaps some of its programs are more difficult than those of top schools like Harvard. That's a good thing to recognize. But we're talking overall. Obviously if you cherry-pick and compare the toughest program at UCSD to the easiest program at Harvard, that UCSD program will probably be harder. But the question more relevant to both the OP and law school admissions is about the overall difficulty of each school's academic program.

(2) UCSD might have a couple graduate programs that are higher-ranked than Harvard's (as determined by the quality/volume of research), but that doesn't mean UCSD's undergraduate academic program is more difficult than Harvard's. Quality/volume of significant research ≠ difficulty of undergraduate academic program. If there were a strong connection, then you'd expect top LACs (which produce very little research) to be pieces of cake compared to research universities, but that's obviously not the case. Research quality/volume as a metric for measuring difficulty of undergraduate classes is a flame.

Not sure why we were discussing UCSD anyway, since it is a very good school. Would be better to look at a school like San Diego State. That would be more to the point of the OP: Ivies, top LACs, etc. tend to be more difficult than random state schools like ASU. As you rightly pointed out, UCSD is not a random state school; it is actually a quite venerable institution.

Pancakes12
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby Pancakes12 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:01 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Chrstgtr wrote:The worst student at Harvard is still in all likelihood a better student than an "A-student" at directional state college.

Yeah, this isn't actually true. I've taught at a bunch of places. The smartest students at any school are as smart as any students anywhere. It's the distribution of ability/preparation that varies by institution.


Have to agree with a.nony for once. At my state school there were plenty of kids who could have gone anywhere and in fact did go to the very top schools for grad school. If you look at top schools grad departments (not just for law), students come from a pretty even distribution of school ranks. Undergrad depends largely on where you come from, the same isn't as true for grad school.

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CincinnatusND
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Re: should I transfer to an easier undergrad?

Postby CincinnatusND » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:39 pm

Wow, this is the most obnoxiously elitist thread I've ever read on this site (which, of course, is named "top-law-schools.com"). Really impressive everyone.




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