Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

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midwest17
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby midwest17 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:41 pm

AD1818 wrote:
McGruff wrote:
AD1818 wrote:Sure, I can't PROVE I am right anymore than you all can prove you are. But the fact that SO many people score way below 170 is quite telling.

Another cool thing about getting better at the LSAT is that your arguments would eventually be less sloppy than this.
edit: sorry, that was dickish of me.

AD1818 wrote:Fwiw, I have only gotten every question right in a properly timed games section a few times. That's right. And I have taken more of these than I can count. I am not trying to be dramatic. Usually I just have to guess on a bunch because I run out of time. I agree that the skills of the logic games are completely learnable. As I said, I can do all of them. I just don't agree that they are necessarily learnable inside of 35 minutes, not unless they get significantly easier.


Just to suggest a method you might not have tried, my time didn't get really good until I started using the 7sage method (same game, several times in a row, shaving 10, 20 seconds off each time) and focusing on REALLY blazing through parts of the setup and hypos. Like, how-can-I-possibly-move-my-pencil-any-faster fast. Same game over and over again, even if it feels pointless because you remember the answers. A lot of speed, in that part of the test, is actually physical. More muscle memory than people think, imo.


I have taken the entire 7sage course. It was in fact pointless for me in many ways to use J.Y.'s method of doing the games over and over again, since I'd memorize all the answers by the 3rd or 4th try, and found I wasn't relying on my skills of logic anymore, but my memory, which is excellent.

It's part of the reason I hate taking practice tests I've already took, because I often will remember the answers to random questions and it really cheapens the experience, since it messes with time and creates a scenario that won't happen on test day.


If you're answering the questions based on remembering the answer, you're doing it wrong. Even if you remember the answer, force yourself to think through the method of figuring it out again.

littleaaron
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby littleaaron » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:55 pm

midwest17 wrote:If you're answering the questions based on remembering the answer, you're doing it wrong. Even if you remember the answer, force yourself to think through the method of figuring it out again.


This. You want to know what's actually, to use your words, "quite telling", OP? That so many different people on here are telling you you're doing it wrong. After. every. single. post. you. make.

You're doing it wrong. And this isn't like dancing or something, where your future doesn't suffer if you do it wrong. Your gpa could easily get you into the TOP law schools in the world. No joke. Put in the study time now, retake that lsat, take your pick of law schools, and then enjoy your awesome life. seriously.

AD1818
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby AD1818 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:12 pm

No. I DO go through the method of doing it again. It's just that I know the correct answers beforehand, and even the method for doing it, and it gets problematic for someone like me who struggles not with figuring out the answers and methods, but with how long it takes me. And when you memorize the answers and the method for getting them, it corrupts your ability to test yourself for time.

I promise I do it the ways you all do. Where do you think I learned about how to approach this test?

I just haven't had the same success, a la Chiller.

littleaaron
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby littleaaron » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:44 pm

here's a fair question that's been posed already, but I'll reiterate: How many times have you taken the LSAT?

AD1818
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby AD1818 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:03 pm

the actual test - once

in before "if you don't take it at least one more time, you're not done"

as if the fact that I outscored my avg pt significantly is something I should ignore

littleaaron
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby littleaaron » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:10 pm

AD1818 wrote:
"if you don't take it at least one more time, you're not done"

the fact that I outscored my avg pt significantly is something I should ignore

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Otunga
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby Otunga » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:11 pm

AD1818 wrote:the actual test - once

in before "if you don't take it at least one more time, you're not done"

as if the fact that I outscored my avg pt significantly is something I should ignore


Is it not worth a shot? It's just one more month of prep and you can still apply for this cycle.

AD1818
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby AD1818 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:30 pm

Otunga wrote:
AD1818 wrote:the actual test - once

in before "if you don't take it at least one more time, you're not done"

as if the fact that I outscored my avg pt significantly is something I should ignore


Is it not worth a shot? It's just one more month of prep and you can still apply for this cycle.


Depends....if I do worse will it hurt me? Even a little?

Unfortunately I am not done with UG and have finals and papers coming up. I don't have the time to study I need to really have a significant effect.

I haven't given up on the idea of taking again. But if I do, I really think it's going to have to be in June and I'd just have to wait a year.

wolfgang
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby wolfgang » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:41 pm

Ok man. I feel for you. It's feeling hard, and you have people telling you things that you don't want to hear.

But the fact is, with the way the legal climate is right now, you're looking at a school with poor employment numbers. You're looking at three years of work that's MUCH HARDER than studying for the lsat. You're looking at graduating with a quarter of a million dollars in debt, and you're going to be lucky to get a LOW PAYING job.

You have a GPA that can avert all of this and land you in a top school. If you retake for a 170+, you're going to go to a great school with a scholarship if you want to go to a mid or lower t-14. You have the option to graduate from one of the best law schools in the world with like no debt. as a splitter, I would happily kill someone for that gpa. The only thing holding you back is your unwillingness to go for that 170+. There is literally no downside to retaking. Right now, you're out at h/y/s. No other school really averages, they just take the higher score. You need to study, find a way to ace LG, and apply to the top.

Another way to think about it is, if you're NOT WILLING to retake a simple test, if you're not willing to consider the evidence and realize that a few months of solid studying could have HUGE implications for the rest of your life, or you're not willing to put in that time and study and at least try considering that, as stated above, THERE IS NO RISK FOR YOU, maybe law isn't right for you. You managed to find someone out there who claims that they were unable, despite hundreds of hours of studying, couldn't get a handle on the logic games. I'll be the first to point out that not only do we not have any idea how this person studied (no offense to that person, chiller or something... you may have done it right, but all we know is that you took a prep course and had a tutor, etc. but we can't know from your post how much effort you put in, the quality of your tutor, etc), but you readily agree with the one person who agrees with your argument, with very little evidence, and refuse to believe ALL of these other people who are telling you the opposite and are making good points.

I would even go so far as to bet that even chiller (chilly? Chills?) would agree that, even if we ASSUME beyond all reason that you are incapable of breaking 170, you need to retake. Someone in your position is, quite simply, refusing to put in a relatively small amount of effort for a NO-RISK, potentially HIGH PAYOFF endeavor. Imagine if you were in vegas, and they said, hey, want a free spin on the wheel? No risk, but if you win, you get money for a full ride to a great law school, and we'll add thousands and thousands of dollars to your salary for the rest of your life. You'd be a fool not to take it.

AD1818
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby AD1818 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:51 pm

wolfgang wrote:Ok man. I feel for you. It's feeling hard, and you have people telling you things that you don't want to hear.

But the fact is, with the way the legal climate is right now, you're looking at a school with poor employment numbers. You're looking at three years of work that's MUCH HARDER than studying for the lsat. You're looking at graduating with a quarter of a million dollars in debt, and you're going to be lucky to get a LOW PAYING job.

You have a GPA that can avert all of this and land you in a top school. If you retake for a 170+, you're going to go to a great school with a scholarship if you want to go to a mid or lower t-14. You have the option to graduate from one of the best law schools in the world with like no debt. as a splitter, I would happily kill someone for that gpa. The only thing holding you back is your unwillingness to go for that 170+. There is literally no downside to retaking. Right now, you're out at h/y/s. No other school really averages, they just take the higher score. You need to study, find a way to ace LG, and apply to the top.

Another way to think about it is, if you're NOT WILLING to retake a simple test, if you're not willing to consider the evidence and realize that a few months of solid studying could have HUGE implications for the rest of your life, or you're not willing to put in that time and study and at least try considering that, as stated above, THERE IS NO RISK FOR YOU, maybe law isn't right for you. You managed to find someone out there who claims that they were unable, despite hundreds of hours of studying, couldn't get a handle on the logic games. I'll be the first to point out that not only do we not have any idea how this person studied (no offense to that person, chiller or something... you may have done it right, but all we know is that you took a prep course and had a tutor, etc. but we can't know from your post how much effort you put in, the quality of your tutor, etc), but you readily agree with the one person who agrees with your argument, with very little evidence, and refuse to believe ALL of these other people who are telling you the opposite and are making good points.

I would even go so far as to bet that even chiller (chilly? Chills?) would agree that, even if we ASSUME beyond all reason that you are incapable of breaking 170, you need to retake. Someone in your position is, quite simply, refusing to put in a relatively small amount of effort for a NO-RISK, potentially HIGH PAYOFF endeavor. Imagine if you were in vegas, and they said, hey, want a free spin on the wheel? No risk, but if you win, you get money for a full ride to a great law school, and we'll add thousands and thousands of dollars to your salary for the rest of your life. You'd be a fool not to take it.


Taking the test again is not a big deal. I just won't do any better if I do so in December. I have no problem taking again, and likely will. It just will have to be for next cycle, which sucks, since I don't know what to do in the meanwhile but whatever.

I don't however know why you assume a few MORE months will get me to where I need to be? How many months is enough to realize your potential? 12? 30? 300?

You all keep saying the same thing. A few more months could mean all the difference, as if I haven't already studied for a year and put in thousands of hours. I don't have an "unwillingness" to go for a 170. I believe the amount of effort I have put in already attests to that. It's simply that I went for it, and came up short. I started from a very low score, and was able to improve significantly. Everyone has a ceiling.

AD1818
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby AD1818 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:54 pm

How about instead of discussing my limits, all of you -0 LG guys tell me the exact methods you used.

Give me some practical advice. Let's say I were to give myself 6 more months of studying come January. How should I approach this?

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McGruff
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby McGruff » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:38 pm

AD1818 wrote:How about instead of discussing my limits, all of you -0 LG guys tell me the exact methods you used.

Give me some practical advice. Let's say I were to give myself 6 more months of studying come January. How should I approach this?


First read/complete all 3 Manhattans and the LSAT Trainer. That shouldn't take more than 2-3 months. Then start PTing once a week, say, every Saturday. Then spend all Sunday typing up a very lengthy (personally I'd spend multiple pages on a single problem but that might not be necessary) review of why you did how you did. First write general notes on what went well, what didn't, then general notes on each section, then get into specific questions (not just ones you missed, but anything that wasn't automatic deserves a full write-up). Then, look for patterns. Is your LR especially weak on Flaw questions? Parallel reasoning? Cool, those are what you're spending 1/3rd of the 30-40 hours you're carving out this week working on; drilling those LR types. Most of the other 2/3rds are split between what logic games you're working on (I did them by type, I think it's beneficial to systematization) and doing at least 3 RC. The rest of your time, say, an hour a day, you're re-reading the review you typed up.

It really doesn't matter all that much whether you remember the questions you're working with, you're not doing them to get the right answers. You're doing them to train yourself and, at least as importantly, to observe yourself so you better understand how you take this test. You're a scientist in the field of you-taking-the-LSAT. You're looking to be an expert in the field.

This is training, man, it's about method and consistency, it's about motivation. Saying "I've already done the games x number of times, and after 3 repeats it's pointless because I remember the answers" is like suggesting that lifting weights won't make you stronger because you did the same exercises last week. Go heavier, do more reps (for LG this is analogous to shaving seconds off your time, drawing your setup quicker, etc).

We're rooting for you by saying you can do it. Disagreeing is rooting against yourself.

AD1818
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby AD1818 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:06 pm

So would you say I really need 6 months of being totally free with no job or school? Seems like what you're advocating is a full-time job.

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Otunga
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby Otunga » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:15 pm

AD1818 wrote:So would you say I really need 6 months of being totally free with no job or school? Seems like what you're advocating is a full-time job.


I think it's inherently tougher to apply as a K-JD unless you're taking ridiculously easy classes, and you're probably not.

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nachosrgood
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby nachosrgood » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:38 pm

McGruff wrote:We're rooting for you by saying you can do it. Disagreeing is rooting against yourself.

+1

AD1818, you got this.

AD1818
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby AD1818 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:49 pm

I'm going to apply for this cycle, and assess my offers. In the meanwhile, I will start studying again in January. If and when I am not satisfied with any of them, I will get back to the books in full force. I guess you can find me in the LSAT forum come January.

I don't feel particularly confident. But I guess since I won't get into school anywhere worth going it doesn't matter much anymore and is worth a shot.

I'll bump this with results in a year if I end up pushing law school back a year.

wolfgang
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby wolfgang » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:56 pm

AD1818 wrote:So would you say I really need 6 months of being totally free with no job or school? Seems like what you're advocating is a full-time job.



You know, I can't really speak for or against this as a general rule, but in your case, I have to say, I see the merit. You're in a very unique position, and a very enviable one. Most of the flak you're getting is because people, myself included, would kill to be where you are right now.

Here's the ONLY advice you're going to get from this crowd, and it's good advice. You follow this, and you could find yourself pulling 160k/year with a JD from yale in five years.

Finish undergrad with as high a GPA as possible. Take lame online CC classes, delay graduation, do whatever it takes. This is less important, because your GPA is already stellar, but it's something to consider if you are gunning for h/y/s


Then, move back in with your parents, or do SOMETHING that gives you those six months off to study. Study full-time. Take more than six months if you need to. Law school isn't going anywhere. Take a cycle off if that's what you need to do. In 50 years, you won't care if you applied in 2013 or 2016.

That's it. Trust me man, law school is worth the time investment. IT's not something thing to rush into, especially when random dudes on the internet are telling you that, for a relatively small investment that most of us made ourselves, you could be looking at a top, top, top school, and telling you exactly what you need to get there and that it's very possible!

wolfgang
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby wolfgang » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:58 pm

AD1818 wrote:I'm going to apply for this cycle, and assess my offers. In the meanwhile, I will start studying again in January. If and when I am not satisfied with any of them, I will get back to the books in full force. I guess you can find me in the LSAT forum come January.

I don't feel particularly confident. But I guess since I won't get into school anywhere worth going it doesn't matter much anymore and is worth a shot.

I'll bump this with results in a year if I end up pushing law school back a year.



Well, folks, we tried.

OP, best of luck to you. feel free to PM me if you every have questions or need a pep talk :)
Make sure to browse LST and LSN this cycle before committing to anything!

AD1818
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby AD1818 » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:22 am

There's no harm in applying wolfgang.

I can always say no to everything and apply again next year.

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Otunga
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby Otunga » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:32 am

AD1818 wrote:There's no harm in applying wolfgang.

I can always say no to everything and apply again next year.


Are you applying with mostly fee waivers? Otherwise, it could be a waste if you essentially know you're not going to go.

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McGruff
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby McGruff » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:57 am

AD1818 wrote:So would you say I really need 6 months of being totally free with no job or school? Seems like what you're advocating is a full-time job.


I wouldn't, no, but it would certainly make your load more manageable. I was working full-time during my prep, but some of that time I was able to study at work, I still ended up doing 5+ hours at home, after getting off work, every day, for a long time, with slightly heavier schedules on the weekend. It's a very, very serious commitment to put in that much work and I'm not going to pretend it's anything but grueling. In my case, it was probably the hardest I've ever worked toward something, but it's also something I needed to prove to myself that I could do.

You got this. See you in the LSAT forum.

AD1818
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby AD1818 » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:15 am

Otunga wrote:
AD1818 wrote:There's no harm in applying wolfgang.

I can always say no to everything and apply again next year.


Are you applying with mostly fee waivers? Otherwise, it could be a waste if you essentially know you're not going to go.


I don't know. If I get lucky unexpectedly, I'll go.

I'll look for mostly waivers. I don't mind spending a little money to see.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby shifty_eyed » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:31 pm

You guys are being a bit ridiculous. I spent hours and hours on LG (much more than on any other section) and never CONSISTENTLY went -0. I did pretty well on the LSAT too. Consistently -3 or less ok, most people should get there. But even then, I'm not sure. You don't need to go -0 on any section to get a 170.

txpasley
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby txpasley » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:46 pm

It kind of slipped under the radar, but why are you applying to law school now while still in school? Have you considered taking a year in the real world, for reasons other than full-time LSAT studying? Why do you want to be a lawyer in the first place?

One reason I ask this is because work experience is valuable, both for you and your application. The second is that you haven't outlined specific goals anywhere, and that has bearings on where you should go to school, regardless of your LSAT score.

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McGruff
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Re: Something I just don't understand wrt non T14 on full rides

Postby McGruff » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:57 pm

shifty_eyed wrote:You guys are being a bit ridiculous. I spent hours and hours on LG (much more than on any other section) and never CONSISTENTLY went -0. I did pretty well on the LSAT too. Consistently -3 or less ok, most people should get there. But even then, I'm not sure. You don't need to go -0 on any section to get a 170.


"hours and hours"? Not trying to be a dick but we've already granted that hundreds of hours might not be enough to max out one's score. The point isn't that he needs to get -0 on LG, it's that he can. Lots(most?) of people find RC impossible to get -0 on regularly, but LG is a different bag and, as such, should be perfected before people start saying that they've hit their absolute maximum score on the LSAT.

-3/section will be in the 160s more often than 170, btw. If, once they hit ~-3/section, someone wants to decide they're done trying to improve, that's fine for them. But to assume that, just because diminishing returns makes them work harder for each additional point, they simply can't improve any further, is to ignore the experience of lots of people in this forum whose labor continued to pay dividends. We have to decide for ourselves when we're willing to settle, but if we tell ourselves that, instead of just not having the motivation needed for more work, we've hit the limit of what we're capable, we're kidding ourselves.




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