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0heL
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Postby 0heL » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:35 pm

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Last edited by 0heL on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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McGruff
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby McGruff » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:03 pm

0heL wrote:Hey TLS,

Long story short, can someone tell me if the following will have a serious impact on my admissions cycle at the T14?

I have 4 disciplinary infractions at my undergrad, ranging from having a plastic bag over my fire director (so i could smoke cigarettes) to throwing a party in my dorm. All were pretty run of the mill, but I was punished for each of them. None of them were criminal offenses.

I have 8 traffic-related citations from the past 3 years, ranging from driving without insurance to careless driving (x2 of them). One of them is running a stop sign; I know I'm a bad driver. None of them are felonies or criminal offenses.

Will this impact my cycle?

TL;DR - Will 4 non-criminal disciplinary infractions from my undergrad and 8 non-criminal, non-felony traffic citations keep me from the T14?


I'd hazard a guess that it's not a good look. We'll never know how it'll play out until your cycle is over and we can use hindsight.

That said, I'd be less worried about your disciplinary infractions than the eight citations (which are criminal offenses I'm pretty sure) in 3 years. It just makes you look risky as all hell. It's not that you're a bad driver, it's that you've got an attitude and haven't decided, after the SEVENTH of these citations, that it might behoove you to pay greater attention to how you drive. Not trying to be harsh but blowing through stop signs isn't an immutable character trait, it's something you could stop doing but don't care enough to.

If I were reading your application, that's what I'd think. Now, it's your job to figure out how you're going to present yourself in such a way (and quite possibly write some explanation about these things) that changes my mind and makes me less convinced that you're a punk.

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midwest17
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby midwest17 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:17 pm

McGruff wrote:(which are criminal offenses I'm pretty sure)


It depends on the state, probably, but traffic offenses below a certain level of seriousness are generally civil infractions, not criminal offenses. You get into misdemeanors with things like driving on a suspended license, reckless driving, etc. I believe.

This raises a good point, though: get all the documentation on these offenses that you can, and make sure that your addendum is very accurate. Then hang on to that documentation for the bar.

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Happy Gilmore
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby Happy Gilmore » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:30 am

0heL wrote:
I have 4 disciplinary infractions



0heL wrote:I have 8 traffic-related citations


Yes, I bet this will affect your cycle. The issue is not the individual things that you have done, but rather the repeated patterns. Shit man, this is only the stuff you were CAUGHT doing. While nothing seriously criminal, this would be a huge red flag for me if I was an Adcomm.

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midwest17
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby midwest17 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:46 am

Also: do you have any time separation from your driving issues? If not, it might be worthwhile to delay your app for a year or more. And, of course, stop getting tickets in the meantime.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby TheSpanishMain » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:24 am

I don't think this will completely tank your applications, but it's definitely a negative factor that you can hopefully mitigate with good numbers and softs. None of these things individually are all that serious, but in the aggregate they look pretty bad. If I were an AdComm, I'd wonder why the hell you aren't capable of adjusting your behavior after getting your weiner slapped the first few times.

T-forteenager
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby T-forteenager » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:54 am

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0heL
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby 0heL » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:12 am

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Last edited by 0heL on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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midwest17
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby midwest17 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:20 pm

0heL wrote:No, they aren't criminal offenses I already checked. Most of them are minor things - driving without a license, speeding - but the three big ones are two tickets for Careless Driving and Running a Stop Sign. My angle is going to be that I learned how to drive late, have always had an erratic routine car schedule with my family, and never drove the same care exclusively for long periods of time. Do you think that's OK? Is there any better way to present all of this?

And now that I think of it, here's the really most important question: Will I be able to make it through the bar (NY or FL)???


Making excuses is never the way to go, especially when they're not particularly good excuses. "My family has a bunch of cars and I had to keep driving different ones" both (a) emphasizes your privilege, and (b) isn't an explanation for running a stop sign. I assume all the cars you were driving had functioning breaks?

If you can't make a convincing "I've learned from my mistakes" argument (and with that many and that recent, you probably can't) then I would keep it short and factual, with maybe an acknowledgment that you realize it's a problem and you're working on fixing it.

Re the bar: I can't imagine this would keep you from passing the bar, especially if you stop getting tickets, like, now. (You might want to consider just not driving any more for the next few years, if that's what it takes.) But I'm not an expert, and it may be worth your time and money to have a chat with a C&F attorney.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby TheSpanishMain » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:22 pm

I wouldn't even try to develop an "angle." Just cop to it, maybe register for some kind of safe driving course and mention that as evidence that you're sincerely trying to fix yourself.

Saying "I never drove the same car for long periods of time" is really weak. Stop signs are stop signs and speed limits are speed limits whether you're in a Ford or a Chevy.

Like I said, I doubt this will completely kill your chances if you're otherwise competitive, but it will likely be something in the negative column that pulls you down a bit. I doubt it will keep you out of a school you would have otherwise gotten into unless you're right on the border.

0heL
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby 0heL » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:42 pm

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Last edited by 0heL on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rinkrat19
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby rinkrat19 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:44 pm

Dang, my widely-mocked two tickets and an accident in three years looks pretty tame now.

0heL
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby 0heL » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:51 pm

can anyone point me in the direction of that thread that lists most of the C&F requirements for T14 (or T30 or something)???

I can't seem to find it with the search function

frcarpen
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby frcarpen » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:57 pm

I really don't think the schools will even see the traffic tickets. Many Apps ask for violations of the law "excluding civil traffic violations." I don't think this will even come up. I would be much more worried about the disciplinary infractions, they may come back to haunt you.

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Bronx Bum
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby Bronx Bum » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:15 pm

Arrested for armed robbery AND assault----->dropped the armed robbery and got assault----->2 years of courses, probation, community service, no jail------>no hold ups wrt c&F.

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t-14orbust
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby t-14orbust » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:33 pm

0heL wrote:can anyone point me in the direction of that thread that lists most of the C&F requirements for T14 (or T30 or something)???

I can't seem to find it with the search function


I just created one, check out the Law School Admissions forum. You're welcome

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midwest17
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby midwest17 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:10 pm

frcarpen wrote:I really don't think the schools will even see the traffic tickets. Many Apps ask for violations of the law "excluding civil traffic violations." I don't think this will even come up. I would be much more worried about the disciplinary infractions, they may come back to haunt you.


Columbia and NYU both ask for traffic violations (they only exclude parking citations). The fact that it's those two schools, specifically, suggest that there might be something about NY's bar, which is obviously relevant to OP.

I'd also note that most of the apps exclude minor traffic citations, and I would be careful about assuming that "minor" = "civil". UVa, for instance, specifically excludes reckless driving (among other things) from the "minor" category, so you'd at least need to disclose your 2 careless driving citations, I would think. Maybe even running a stop sign, but that's not as clear cut.

Even at schools that don't explicitly define "minor", you don't want to be in a situation a few years from now where the bar sees your citations, thinks one of them isn't minor, and dings you for not disclosing it.

You're probably best off calling each school and asking them about their definition of "minor." Some may tell you that all civil infractions count as minor. Take notes on those calls and keep them; that way, if it becomes an issue during bar C&F, you can honestly tell them that you asked the schools and they led you to believe you didn't need to disclose. (You don't have to give schools your name when you call to ask them about this stuff, or you can pretend to be calling on behalf of a friend.)

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nickb285
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby nickb285 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:03 pm

0heL wrote: having a plastic bag over my fire director (so i could smoke cigarettes)


Wait, did that actually work?

Anyway, responses above are pretty credited. It'll hurt at some schools but it's not a dealbreaker. Best thing to do is make sure you comply with disclosure requirements and hope for the best.

0heL
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Re: SERIOUSLY Concerned Over C&F Issues

Postby 0heL » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:15 pm

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