Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
gmoney71313
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Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby gmoney71313 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:34 pm

I am having a hard time narrowing down the list of schools I want to apply to. So far, I intend to apply to most of the T14, but as far as the rest of T1 schools, I keep justifying reasons to apply to basically all of them. I am set on becoming a PD after school so my app considerations are mainly focused on $$$, LRAP, PI placement, strength of PD offices in surrounding area, mobility of JD, and academic reputation.

169/3.71 from top 25 undergrad with average softs and LORs.
From CA, would be nice to work here, but am by no means grounded here.

example of justification I have been giving: "I don't want to work in Indiana, but IU-Bloomington seems to have excellent PI placement, has very good grant $$$, and has a decent LRAP"

This is great advice from a JD with a PD offer, but it hasn't done all too much to narrow my list (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=215132):

Apply everywhere you might get in that you would actually go if the offer were right. I think I applied to almost 30 schools. Ask for fee waivers, and put in the time, and crank out a couple dozen applications. Then, see what comes up, and play the offers against each other.

For me, it came down to three major factors. First, I wanted to go to a school with a national reach. I was ready to relocate anywhere in the country after school, and I wanted to make sure that I could be competitive for every PD job that came open my 3L year. That meant T14 or somewhere else well-regarded. I wanted to be able to say "I went to X Law School" and have offices everywhere in the country say, "Ah, yes, X, that's a great school that produces some excellent PDs." I applied to most of the T14, as well as about 15 other T1 schools in major cities I could stand to live in that have decent PD offices where I could work during school.

Second, I wanted to make sure I could work throughout school. Work experience is critical, and you need to do as much as possible as early as possible. I started doing volunteer work my first week of school, and I started working 1L spring. I didn't apply to any schools in cities that didn't have an established PD office, and I didn't apply to any schools that didn't have criminal defense clinics that gave students actual trials. I wanted to do internships and clinical work as early as possible and as often as possible, and I think focusing that way was the smartest thing I did. It was certainly the factor discussed most in my interviews.

Third, I wanted to not be totally impoverished after graduation. Yes, I looked at scholarship offers, but I also looked very carefully at LRAP programs. Some of them are much better than others. There are quite a few T1 schools now where you can end up going for free by combining LRAP and IBR for 10 years. If you're committed to a PI career, that's almost as good as a full ride with a stipend. Also, make sure your school has guaranteed summer PI funding so that you don't have to take out private loans (not eligible for IBR) to pay for your unpaid summers. I ended up turning down a bigger scholarship at one school in favor of a much better guaranteed LRAP and PI summer funding offer at the school I ended up attending

Yes, HYS are great, but there are a lot of very well-regarded schools that have as good or better resources for PI/PD students. Look into those programs specifically. And look at where the folks in the offices you want to target went to law school. Prestige matters in so far as you want to have gone to a school where your potential employer can be confident you learned something useful, and that primarily means a school they've heard of that will support your actual work, outside of the classroom.


Can someone help me set my priorities, give me some cold, hard reality, or at least kick me in the right direction? Let me know if any additional info would help to answer this.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:53 am

Your numbers are good enough to get you into a lot of very good schools. Apply to the T14, plus schools that are in areas you would like to work (UCLA, USC, Hastings, etc.). You have a shot at Berkeley and should probably do everything in your power to go there, given your goals.

Absolutely don't bother applying to places like Indiana, WUSTL, etc. There is no reason to consider moving across the country to attend a school like that. At a certain point, there's no such thing as "PI placement." The fact that Indiana puts x% more people into public interest jobs than doesn't mean that you will find it x% easier to get a public interest job from Indiana. Don't confuse correlation and causation. There are, in my opinion, only a few outliers that do actually have stronger public interest networks that make a (marginal) difference in employment chances. Berkeley and NYU are a couple of them. Obviously YHS. Maybe a couple others, but definitely not "public flagship law school in random state."

JJ123
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby JJ123 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:10 am

Where do you want to work?

gmoney71313
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby gmoney71313 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:25 pm

I am pretty up in the air as to where I want to settle down but here's something to give you a general idea:

Would work in: California (minus LA, although I would work elsewhere in SoCal), Denver, Washington, Pennsylvania,

Would consider working in: DC, Chicago, Oregon, parts of Michigan

Would NOT work in: NY, NYC, Texas, Arizona, Missouri, Iowa, Indiana, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Nevada, Alabama


Basically, the west coast is in, the south is out, and I would consider certain places in the midwest/east coast. Thanks for the input guys, it's much appreciated.

gmoney71313
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby gmoney71313 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:33 pm

Forgot to ask: How far down should I reach, regarding schools in an area I KNOW I would be able to settle down in (CA)? At what point does the legal education/name of the school negatively outweigh a (potential) full scholarship? (this guy seems pretty sore about his education: T14 Paradise.blogspot.com)

Here's all CA law schools, draw the line of no return for me:

Stanford
Berkeley
UCLA
USC
UC Davis
UC Hastings
UC Irvine
Pepperdine
Loyola
San Diego
Santa Clara
Pacific
Chapman
USF
Southwestern
California Western
Golden Gate
Western State
La Verne
Whittier
Thomas Jefferson

gmoney71313
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby gmoney71313 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:48 pm

Don't know what happened to my Ctrl-V there, but I meant to say that THIS guy is quite sore regarding his full ride to a lesser law school:

T14 Paradise dot blogspot dot com

Void
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby Void » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:49 pm

gmoney71313 wrote:Forgot to ask: How far down should I reach, regarding schools in an area I KNOW I would be able to settle down in (CA)? At what point does the legal education/name of the school negatively outweigh a (potential) full scholarship? (this guy seems pretty sore about his education: T14 Paradise.blogspot.com)

Here's all CA law schools, draw the line of no return for me:

Stanford
Berkeley
UCLA
USC
UC Davis
UC Hastings
UC Irvine
Pepperdine
Loyola
San Diego
Santa Clara
Pacific
Chapman
USF
Southwestern
California Western
Golden Gate
Western State
La Verne
Whittier
Thomas Jefferson


I don't know CA schools well, but for PD what will matter about your school will have more to do with substance than ranking. For instance, if one school has a fantastic criminal clinic and has a few highly-regarded criminal law professors, you might actually be better off there than a higher-ranked place. That said, I imagine that Stanford and Berkeley are universally well-regarded without regard to their actual substance (which, I'm sure, is amazing for both). Long story short, you should be looking at what criminal defense resources these schools have- look for clinics, classes other than the typical curriculum (I.e. all schools have evidence, criminal procedure, trial advocacy, but some schools have classes about investigations, forensics, criminal psych., etc.), and faculty. If you're really dedicated to being a PD you could even reach out to current PDs near you and ask them where they went to school and how the experience was, etc.

gmoney71313
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby gmoney71313 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:52 pm

Pretty new to the TLS scene, but maybe this guy's blog is taboo here. Any time I attempt to type 'third tier reality' w/o spaces, it automatically gets changed to T14 Paradise upon my posting of it. Regardless, don't waste your time going to his blog, I just wanted to affirm that some schools may not be worth attending due to the combination of their low reputations and the current job market.

gmoney71313
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby gmoney71313 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:02 pm

Void, do you have any insight as to the strength of some schools outside of CA, in regards to their 'substance'?
Also, as a recently hired PD, what is the potential of moving states following 3L?
Can mobility only be achieved with the T14? Or is moving to a diff region asking too much even for the T14?

Void
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby Void » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:19 pm

gmoney71313 wrote:Void, do you have any insight as to the strength of some schools outside of CA, in regards to their 'substance'?
Also, as a recently hired PD, what is the potential of moving states following 3L?
Can mobility only be achieved with the T14? Or is moving to a diff region asking too much even for the T14?


Nope- I can't speak to the strengths of any school. I went to a second tier flagship local state school for scholarship + in-state tuition. I landed my job in a neighboring state. I was honestly surprised that my school "reached" even as far as across one state line. I don't think I would have been successful applying to jobs in other regions at all, but I guess maybe I would have had a better chance if I went to a t-14

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:21 pm

don't go to TTTT uc irvine

gmoney71313
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby gmoney71313 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:41 pm

don't go to TTTT uc irvine


What would a doctor know about applying to law school? In all seriousness, why would you recommend against UC Irvine, with my career/regional goals considered?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:17 pm

gmoney71313 wrote:
don't go to TTTT uc irvine


What would a doctor know about applying to law school? In all seriousness, why would you recommend against UC Irvine, with my career/regional goals considered?

He doesn't know a thing about it, just a bizarre anti-UCI troll.

Realistically though the downside to UCI might be that there isn't an alumni base. They've placed pretty well into clerkships and such on the strength of their initial faculty/administration but that effect seems unlikely to carry over to the PD world.

I would probably apply to all of the CA schools you listed down to Loyola. Below that... well, I don't know much about the CA market, but my impression from the other side of the country (and, um, the internet) is that the schools below Loyola are generally regarded as fairly terrible, to the extent that they might actually reflect poorly on you vis a vis another job candidate. Anyway with your numbers you should be able to get a lot of money to go somewhere like Hastings or Davis, I would think.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:19 pm

And yeah, the third tier reality blog is banned for some reason, don't really know the drama there but I think it involved some sort of excessive trolling. TLS is not very receptive to the ultra-negative perspective on law school. You'll find plenty of people who can provide it elsewhere. Google JDU.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:29 pm

don't listen to dixiecup—

granted, uci currently boasts solid numbers: gpa/lsat, placement, federal clerkships...

but those numbers are not representative of uci law. Why?

those numbers only represent the first graduating class, who all got full schollys to attend. They then were helped tremendously by the Dean of the law school, Erwin Chemerisnky, a noted legal scholar, who was able to get them good jobs through his prestige. Orange County doesn't consider UCI prestigious, employers aren't sprinting to UCI's OCI in droves. The OC market is saturated and the COL is tttterible. Lastly, UCI boasts one of the most expensive COA in the country.

HTH.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:32 pm


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twenty
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby twenty » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:29 pm

Non-T20 schools usually have god-awful LRAP programs, and their PI outlooks leave much to be desired.

I dunno. A full ride at a regional school, even UCI, is probably not a bad call.

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TheJanitor6203
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:29 pm

gmoney71313 wrote:I am pretty up in the air as to where I want to settle down but here's something to give you a general idea:

Would work in: California (minus LA, although I would work elsewhere in SoCal), Denver, Washington, Pennsylvania,

Would consider working in: DC, Chicago, Oregon, parts of Michigan

Would NOT work in: NY, NYC, Texas, Arizona, Missouri, Iowa, Indiana, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Nevada, Alabama


Basically, the west coast is in, the south is out, and I would consider certain places in the midwest/east coast. Thanks for the input guys, it's much appreciated.

Just curious why TX is out?

Void
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby Void » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:39 pm

TheJanitor6203 wrote:
gmoney71313 wrote:I am pretty up in the air as to where I want to settle down but here's something to give you a general idea:

Would work in: California (minus LA, although I would work elsewhere in SoCal), Denver, Washington, Pennsylvania,

Would consider working in: DC, Chicago, Oregon, parts of Michigan

Would NOT work in: NY, NYC, Texas, Arizona, Missouri, Iowa, Indiana, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Nevada, Alabama


Basically, the west coast is in, the south is out, and I would consider certain places in the midwest/east coast. Thanks for the input guys, it's much appreciated.

Just curious why TX is out?


LOL let me guess- you're from TX? (Many Texans can't seem to understand why someone would not want to live in their gigantic flat desert)

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TheJanitor6203
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:48 pm

Void wrote:
TheJanitor6203 wrote:
gmoney71313 wrote:I am pretty up in the air as to where I want to settle down but here's something to give you a general idea:

Would work in: California (minus LA, although I would work elsewhere in SoCal), Denver, Washington, Pennsylvania,

Would consider working in: DC, Chicago, Oregon, parts of Michigan

Would NOT work in: NY, NYC, Texas, Arizona, Missouri, Iowa, Indiana, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Nevada, Alabama


Basically, the west coast is in, the south is out, and I would consider certain places in the midwest/east coast. Thanks for the input guys, it's much appreciated.

Just curious why TX is out?

I am from Texas but I can understand why people don't want to live there. However, I ask because a lot of people have some crazy misconceptions about Texas and I find them amusing.

LOL let me guess- you're from TX? (Many Texans can't seem to understand why someone would not want to live in their gigantic flat desert)

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TheJanitor6203
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:51 pm

TheJanitor6203 wrote:
Void wrote:
TheJanitor6203 wrote:
gmoney71313 wrote:I am pretty up in the air as to where I want to settle down but here's something to give you a general idea:

Would work in: California (minus LA, although I would work elsewhere in SoCal), Denver, Washington, Pennsylvania,

Would consider working in: DC, Chicago, Oregon, parts of Michigan

Would NOT work in: NY, NYC, Texas, Arizona, Missouri, Iowa, Indiana, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Nevada, Alabama


Basically, the west coast is in, the south is out, and I would consider certain places in the midwest/east coast. Thanks for the input guys, it's much appreciated.

Just curious why TX is out?


LOL let me guess- you're from TX? (Many Texans can't seem to understand why someone would not want to live in their gigantic flat desert)

I am from Texas but I can understand why people don't want to live there. However, I ask because a lot of people have some crazy misconceptions about Texas and I find them amusing.

gmoney71313
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby gmoney71313 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:06 pm

TBH I have never been, so I would be happy to share my misconceptions with you. The reason I would prefer not to settle down in Texas is NOT the culture, but instead more of the climate. It may seem like a cop out, but I love my greenery.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby Dr. Dre » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:12 pm

Also, the state of California is in financial and social ruins, IDK why you would want to practice here.

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okinawa
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby okinawa » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:30 pm

gmoney71313 wrote:TBH I have never been, so I would be happy to share my misconceptions with you. The reason I would prefer not to settle down in Texas is NOT the culture, but instead more of the climate. It may seem like a cop out, but I love my greenery.


I think less than 10% of Texas is even desert. Just stay away from the northernmost part and the El Paso area and you'll have plenty of greenery.

Void
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Re: Too Many Applications... Prospective PD

Postby Void » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:46 pm

okinawa wrote:
gmoney71313 wrote:TBH I have never been, so I would be happy to share my misconceptions with you. The reason I would prefer not to settle down in Texas is NOT the culture, but instead more of the climate. It may seem like a cop out, but I love my greenery.


I think less than 10% of Texas is even desert. Just stay away from the northernmost part and the El Paso area and you'll have plenty of greenery.


Do you have photos of this "greenery?" A Texan forest, perhaps?




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