C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
hephaestus
Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:21 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby hephaestus » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:53 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Also, I know a fun game called "Guess which T6 school is the only one that games its medians."

Not that I'd object to CLS doing the same. But until they do, point and laugh at the median manipulaTTTion.

I know an even better game called "Guess which T6 Ivy League school is tied with a median manipulaTTTor?" :lol:

You've almost gotta think of gaming the rankings like faking injuries in soccer; sure, it's totally a pussy thing to do, but you can easily lose if you don't do it when other teams are. :P

+1. Tbf, median manipulation is kind of the point.

User avatar
jbagelboy
Posts: 9639
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:01 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Also, I know a fun game called "Guess which T6 school is the only one that games its medians."

Not that I'd object to CLS doing the same. But until they do, point and laugh at the median manipulaTTTion.

I know an even better game called "Guess which T6 Ivy League school is tied with a median manipulaTTTor?" :lol:

You've almost gotta think of gaming the rankings like faking injuries in soccer; sure, it's totally a pussy thing to do, but you can easily lose if you don't do it when other teams are. :P


Would we call Chicago a median "gamer"? Isnt it just a smaller school with a ton of extra cash the past few years? Smaller class size with large budget helps secure high medians, lower acceptance rate, have strong placement %, better student/faculty ratio, more expenditures per student, ect. As far as the metric is concerned, UChi doesnt even need to game it, they are natural winners, except in the more opaque assessment categories.

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby 20141023 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:09 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
The-Specs
Posts: 1037
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:55 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby The-Specs » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:08 am

.
Last edited by The-Specs on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
BruinRegents
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:11 am

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby BruinRegents » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:22 am

kappycaft1 wrote:You've almost gotta think of gaming the rankings like faking injuries in soccer; sure, it's totally a pussy thing to do, but you can easily lose if you don't do it when other teams are. :P


Damn that's a great analogy. Or when Manu flops or when CFB teams fake an injury to a defensive player to slow their opponents offense down.

By the way, feelings on UChicago? They are my first ever fee waiver and a mentor went there so they have a special place in my heart.

User avatar
LSATSCORES2012
Posts: 770
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:12 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby LSATSCORES2012 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:50 am

Why does a large 25-50 gap with a small 50-75 gap indicate gaming of the medians (in a way other than normal gaming)? All that really seems to mean is that they game their medians but not their percentiles (and really it's somewhat of a mystery why schools would focus on percentiles rather than take a holistic approach once they're under both medians, anyway, unless they genuinely believe that high LSAT scores are the best way to determine admission decisions). But even if Chicago were to take that approach, it doesn't seem like gaming of the medians so much as it's not-gaming of the not-medians.

(edited for clarity)

User avatar
jingosaur
Posts: 2210
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:33 am

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby jingosaur » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:31 am

BruinRegents wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:You've almost gotta think of gaming the rankings like faking injuries in soccer; sure, it's totally a pussy thing to do, but you can easily lose if you don't do it when other teams are. :P


Damn that's a great analogy. Or when Manu flops or when CFB teams fake an injury to a defensive player to slow their opponents offense down.

By the way, feelings on UChicago? They are my first ever fee waiver and a mentor went there so they have a special place in my heart.


Pretty solid school. It will probably be alone in 4th in US News rankings after Columbia's LSAT drop.

It looks like next year will be:
1. Y
2. H and S
4 UChi
5 CU
6. NYU and Penn
8. Berk and UVA
10. Duke
11. UMich
12. NU
13. C
14. G

I think Georgetown did well enough this cycle to stay alone in 14th. I looks like a lot of kids who would normally go to GW ended up going to GULC for more money to secure better job placement. I think GW had so many more matriculates this cycle because they stopped considering GPA.

User avatar
midwest17
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:27 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby midwest17 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:05 am

LSATSCORES2012 wrote:Why does a large 25-50 gap with a small 50-75 gap indicate gaming of the medians (in a way other than normal gaming)? All that really seems to mean is that they game their medians but not their percentiles (and really it's somewhat of a mystery why schools would focus on percentiles rather than take a holistic approach once they're under both medians, anyway, unless they genuinely believe that high LSAT scores are the best way to determine admission decisions). But even if Chicago were to take that approach, it doesn't seem like gaming of the medians so much as it's not-gaming of the not-medians.

(edited for clarity)


Because it indicates that they focused really hard on getting a bunch of people just over the median, rather than trying to attract students who are significantly above the median (and thus harder to get), while letting in people who were significantly below the median.

Since the 25-75 don't matter for rankings, people assume they aren't gamed.

Basically, a large 25-50 gap and a small 50-75 gap indicates that they're focusing on getting the highest median possible, rather than attracting, overall, the strongest group of students.

User avatar
Dr. Dre
Posts: 2347
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:10 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Dr. Dre » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:06 am

"Boy genius" matriculates to USC lol school at age 18. Now, he is unable to find a job as an attorney.
http://www.businessinsider.com/andrew-c ... ebt-2013-9




Also, this dood graduated from a TTT UG
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/277218

User avatar
BruinRegents
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:11 am

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby BruinRegents » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:27 am

Dr. Dre wrote:"Boy genius" matriculates to USC lol school at age 18. Now, he is unable to find a job as an attorney.
http://www.businessinsider.com/andrew-c ... ebt-2013-9




Also, this dood graduated from a TTT UG
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/277218

He went to 'SC, not sure that would qualify him as a genius. :D

User avatar
heythatslife
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:18 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby heythatslife » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:34 am

Dr. Dre wrote:"Boy genius" matriculates to USC lol school at age 18. Now, he is unable to find a job as an attorney.
http://www.businessinsider.com/andrew-c ... ebt-2013-9




Also, this dood graduated from a TTT UG
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/277218


I don't see how this post is relevant to the thread but LOL @ a "boy genius" paying sticker to go to USC. I feel it's sort of like an oxymoron. I mean, no offense to the folks at USC but the epithet "whiz kid" may have been abused here.

User avatar
Monochromatic Oeuvre
Posts: 1929
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 9:40 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:27 am

kappycaft1 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Also, I know a fun game called "Guess which T6 school is the only one that games its medians."

Not that I'd object to CLS doing the same. But until they do, point and laugh at the median manipulaTTTion.

I know an even better game called "Guess which T6 Ivy League school is tied with a median manipulaTTTor?" :lol:

You've almost gotta think of gaming the rankings like faking injuries in soccer; sure, it's totally a pussy thing to do, but you can easily lose if you don't do it when other teams are. :P


Hey, I'd be on board if CLS did the same. The only real arguments against are that it's deceptive and undignified, which I'll pretty quickly trade for MOAR RANKINGZ.

CLS could have fairly easily pulled off something along the lines of 3.42/3.80/3.87, 168/172/173 last cycle if they went full UVA on it.

User avatar
LSATSCORES2012
Posts: 770
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:12 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby LSATSCORES2012 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:27 am

midwest17 wrote:Because it indicates that they focused really hard on getting a bunch of people just over the median, rather than trying to attract students who are significantly above the median (and thus harder to get)

If this is what people mean, it clearly doesn't apply to Chicago any more than its peers. Yes, its 50-75 spread is small compared to its 25-50, but its 50-75 spread is exactly the same as NYU's and Columbia's (or, at least it was last year... we don't know about this year yet.)

midwest17 wrote:while letting in people who were significantly below the median.

I mean, yea... this is what I argued makes the most sense to do:

LSATSCORES2012 wrote:t's somewhat of a mystery why schools would focus on percentiles rather than take a holistic approach once they're under both medians, anyway, unless they genuinely believe that high LSAT scores are the best way to determine admission decisions


To clarify, an admissions director theoretically has free reign to admit half the class entirely above both medians, and then take a completely holistic approach with the other slightly less than half of the class, and still maintain the median. This makes perfect sense, unless they actually believe that the LSAT is the best way to measure a future lawyer... which most probably don't.

Edit: I'm not saying that Chicago does this, nor am I saying that if they do it it's because of some wholehearted desired to combat the woes imposed by the USNews system... what I am saying is that, regardless of the motivation, I think everyone should do it... (actually I think everyone should collectively say screw rankings, let's all actually do legitimate investigations into the schools we are considering attending, and rendering USNews useless... but I guess this isn't the place for that and it's not going to happen because USNews is a nice and simple way to make decisions...)

midwest17 wrote:getting the highest median possible, rather than attracting, overall, the strongest group of students.


This isn't supported... in fact, I'd argue the opposite might be true, based on the above... but even if it's true, this is what nearly everyone does... and it's silly and unfortunate, yes, but not specific to Chicago.

When I think of gaming, I think of what Monochromatic mentions - what UVA does: admitting splitters who aren't likely to be admitted elsewhere. And there isn't much indication that Chicago does that, as far as I can tell, but I could be missing something.

I mean, of course Chicago games the medians in that they focus on getting the right amount of people with certain LSAT scores and GPA's. But so does every other school except maybe Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley (and I'm sure even they care, just not as much).

Maybe I'm missing something. As you all know, I'm going to Chicago and my desire to see it in a good light might be clouding my judgement. But I don't understand how they're gaming differently from their peers... This is especially true considering they let me (and many others who are below both medians) in with a scholarship.

User avatar
ScottRiqui
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:09 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby ScottRiqui » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:43 am

LSATSCORES2012 wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something. As you all know, I'm going to Chicago and my desire to see it in a good light might be clouding my judgement. But I don't understand how they're gaming the system. This is especially true considering they let me (and many others who are below both medians) in with a scholarship.


"Gaming the medians" has a very specific meaning. It's not just a matter of admitting the right students in order to get a particular median. Rather, it's manipulating the admissions in order to get a specific median, without any concern for the distribution of above- or below-median students in the incoming class.

Yes, you can get a 166 median by admitting a crap-ton of 166 and 167 scorers, and virtually no one with scores higher than that. And if you can fill up 50% of your class with those 166/167 scorers, the other 50% can literally be garbage, and you'll still get your 166 median.

That's what it means when you see a 25th that's way below the median, and a 75th that's only a point over the median (or even identical to the median) - the school has busted its ass to fill half the class with scorers at or slightly above their desired median. The fact that they're not getting many "top talent" students who are significantly above the median, or the fact that almost half the class can be total dross doesn't matter much to them, just the median.

User avatar
LSATSCORES2012
Posts: 770
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:12 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby LSATSCORES2012 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:27 am

That's not what gaming the medians as, as far as I know. I always thought that gaming the medians was "manipulating the admissions in order to get a specific median, without any concern for" student quality. See my post below in response to another post which was deleted (basically the post said that UVA games the medians, and so does Chicago, by admitting splitters and reverse splitters):

You also have to remember how median gaming works. Assume we have a 7 students with the following GPA/LSATs:

2.0/180, 2.0/180, 2.0/180, 4.0/140, 4.0/140, 4.0/140, 4.0/180. You now have a median of 4.0/180. Your 75th percentiles will be 4.0/180, while your 25th percentiles will be 2.0/140. The 50-75 doesn't show much difference, but the 25-50 spread shows a lot more difference. UChi (and UVA etc) game the medians by accepting a bunch of splitters and reverse splitters, and then balancing them out with students at or above both medians.

So, this is what I think of as gaming, not

It's not just a matter of admitting the right students in order to get a particular median. Rather, it's manipulating the admissions in order to get a specific median, without any concern for the distribution of above- or below-median students in the incoming class.


So, what I'd describe this actual gaming as is "manipulating the admissions in order to get a specific median, without any concern for the" quality of the student body. I think that's clearly what UVA (and Penn to a much lesser extent...) do.

But why do you think Chicago does it?

This is an image of Chicago's admission graph on MyLSN for the past three years:

Image

Here is UVA's (excluding last year because of median changes):

Image

Here's Columbia's:

Image

And here is Chicago's for just last year (in case they increased their gaming skillz)
Image
[/quote]

And then I looked at a preview of the post and was going to write on but since the original post was deleted I won't. But in summary I don't think the graphs support splitter/reverse splitter focus of admissions.

Edit: And if we go by your definition of gaming then I don't see anything wrong with it because, as I've already explained, basing admissions off of the LSAT as much as everyone does is silly anyway. That is to say, it's not "deceptive and undignified" (Monochromatic) in the same way that I see the splitter/reverse splitter thing.

User avatar
sublime
Posts: 15411
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:21 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby sublime » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:27 am

..

User avatar
Monochromatic Oeuvre
Posts: 1929
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 9:40 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:38 am

A simple test of whether your medians are manipulated is this: Would someone at both medians be a student of average or above-average quality at a school?

For example, at NYU, someone with a 3.7/170 is roughly a student of average quality, if we're measuring that using an intuitive idea of quality or something like the index formula. A 3.75/170 at Northwestern would be a solidly above-average student there, because their medians are such that most of the 3.8+ students have 165-168 and a whole bunch of the 170+ students have 3.4 or lower.

A "sliding scale", like the one CLS uses, is not median manipulation. It is making admissions almost entirely-numbers based, but consideration is only given to meet preset numerical standards on that scale, not specifically on whether someone is above a median.

User avatar
Sourrudedude
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:34 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Sourrudedude » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:46 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:For example, at NYU, someone with a 3.7/170 is roughly a student of average quality, if we're measuring that using an intuitive idea of quality or something like the index formula. A 3.75/170 at Northwestern would be a solidly above-average student there, because their medians are such that most of the 3.8+ students have 165-168 and a whole bunch of the 170+ students have 3.4 or lower.

Could you expand on this? If we assume that LSAT and GPA are equally indicative of a student's ability, wouldn't they balance out? Or is the point that a splitter/reverse splitter inherently worse?

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:52 am

Dr. Dre wrote:"Boy genius" matriculates to USC lol school at age 18. Now, he is unable to find a job as an attorney.
http://www.businessinsider.com/andrew-c ... ebt-2013-9




Also, this dood graduated from a TTT UG
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/277218


I believe a 12 year old went to a top 10 law school about 6-7 years ago.

User avatar
jingosaur
Posts: 2210
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:33 am

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby jingosaur » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:02 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:"Boy genius" matriculates to USC lol school at age 18. Now, he is unable to find a job as an attorney.
http://www.businessinsider.com/andrew-c ... ebt-2013-9




Also, this dood graduated from a TTT UG
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/277218


I believe a 12 year old went to a top 10 law school about 6-7 years ago.


Having to work 5 years at a law firm (or in the corporate world in general) without being allowed to legally drink is a hell that I wouldn't wish on anybody.

User avatar
danquayle
Posts: 1108
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:12 am

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby danquayle » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:06 pm

jingosaur wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:"Boy genius" matriculates to USC lol school at age 18. Now, he is unable to find a job as an attorney.
http://www.businessinsider.com/andrew-c ... ebt-2013-9




Also, this dood graduated from a TTT UG
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/277218


I believe a 12 year old went to a top 10 law school about 6-7 years ago.


Having to work 5 years at a law firm (or in the corporate world in general) without being allowed to legally drink is a hell that I wouldn't wish on anybody.


We had a 19 year old in my law school class. She withdrew within a year. I hesitate to think people should go to law school directly out of law school, let alone as a teenager. Law is such a narrow profession to invest so much so early.

notalobbyist
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:25 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby notalobbyist » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:54 pm

danquayle wrote:
jingosaur wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:"Boy genius" matriculates to USC lol school at age 18. Now, he is unable to find a job as an attorney.
http://www.businessinsider.com/andrew-c ... ebt-2013-9




Also, this dood graduated from a TTT UG
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/277218


I believe a 12 year old went to a top 10 law school about 6-7 years ago.


Having to work 5 years at a law firm (or in the corporate world in general) without being allowed to legally drink is a hell that I wouldn't wish on anybody.


We had a 19 year old in my law school class. She withdrew within a year. I hesitate to think people should go to law school directly out of law school, let alone as a teenager. Law is such a narrow profession to invest so much so early.


I hope nobody goes to law school straight out of law school, the debt loads of going twice can't be justified assuming they also have undergrads debt.

User avatar
Monochromatic Oeuvre
Posts: 1929
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 9:40 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:37 pm

Sourrudedude wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:For example, at NYU, someone with a 3.7/170 is roughly a student of average quality, if we're measuring that using an intuitive idea of quality or something like the index formula. A 3.75/170 at Northwestern would be a solidly above-average student there, because their medians are such that most of the 3.8+ students have 165-168 and a whole bunch of the 170+ students have 3.4 or lower.

Could you expand on this? If we assume that LSAT and GPA are equally indicative of a student's ability, wouldn't they balance out? Or is the point that a splitter/reverse splitter inherently worse?


Consider two schools, each with five students:

School A:
3.9/169
3.8/170
3.7/171
3.6/172
3.5/173


Medians: 3.7/171
Averages: 3.7/171

School B:
3.9/172 (full ride)
3.0/171
3.4/170
3.9/165
4.0/162

Medians: 3.9/170
Averages: 3.6/168

School A would look something like NYU did--medians roughly conforming with averages (although averages are always a little lower because of URMs), and student quality essentially predicting acceptance. School B would look more like UVA--averages structurally below medians, and student quality with much lower predictive value (e.g. UVA in that scenario probably rejects a 3.8/169 even though he probably would make a better student than all but the first one).

User avatar
danquayle
Posts: 1108
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:12 am

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby danquayle » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:16 pm

notalobbyist wrote:
danquayle wrote:
jingosaur wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:I believe a 12 year old went to a top 10 law school about 6-7 years ago.


Having to work 5 years at a law firm (or in the corporate world in general) without being allowed to legally drink is a hell that I wouldn't wish on anybody.


We had a 19 year old in my law school class. She withdrew within a year. I hesitate to think people should go to law school directly out of law school, let alone as a teenager. Law is such a narrow profession to invest so much so early.


I hope nobody goes to law school straight out of law school, the debt loads of going twice can't be justified assuming they also have undergrads debt.


I was obviously talking about LLMs...

User avatar
Crowing
Posts: 2636
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:20 pm

Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Crowing » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:09 pm

I don't see a large 25-50 split as necessarily indicative of sketchy behavior.

E.g. In the case of CLS/NYU vs. Chicago, one could say that CLS/NYU bases decisions very heavily on numbers, while Chicago is highly likely to admit applicants above its medians but is less focused on numbers and more on other variables of an applicant if they have lower numbers or are splitters. I'm not saying this is definitely the case, but I do think that quartile splits are by themselves not meaningful enough to draw conclusions about admissions philosophy from.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests