C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size Forum

[longlivetheking]

holy shit penn increased its 25th LSAT?

penn's killing it in rankings + employment

HYS
CCNP
MVB
DNC
G

I feel like it's been like this for the past few years. Why do most TLSers refuse to believe in CCNP? Just look at dat Biglaw + clerkship.

Because T6 refers to admissions only. Not employment. Otherwise NYU wouldn't be listed with Columbia and Chicago.

sorry about özil

[longlivetheking]

holy shit penn increased its 25th LSAT?

penn's killing it in rankings + employment

HYS
CCNP
MVB
DNC
G

I feel like it's been like this for the past few years. Why do most TLSers refuse to believe in CCNP? Just look at dat Biglaw + clerkship.

Because T6 refers to admissions only. Not employment. Otherwise NYU wouldn't be listed with Columbia and Chicago.

This is blatant NYU-Trolling. nyu's biglaw numbers are solid compared to CC, and although there's a dip in clerkship numbers it was only last year, most likely an anomaly.

[snapdragon25]

I was bummed I only raised my LSAT 1 point in June, but these new medians are giving me hope!!

[wtrc]

I was bummed I only raised my LSAT 1 point in June, but these new medians are giving me hope!!

+1. I'm retaking, but that 1 point jump (166--->167) would be key to get into the T14 if I didn't.

[BigZuck]

I was bummed I only raised my LSAT 1 point in June, but these new medians are giving me hope!!

For some reason this post + your avatar made me lol

[Real Madrid]

holy shit penn increased its 25th LSAT?

penn's killing it in rankings + employment

HYS
CCNP
MVB
DNC
G

I feel like it's been like this for the past few years. Why do most TLSers refuse to believe in CCNP? Just look at dat Biglaw + clerkship.

Because T6 refers to admissions only. Not employment. Otherwise NYU wouldn't be listed with Columbia and Chicago.

This is blatant NYU-Trolling. nyu's biglaw numbers are solid compared to CC, and although there's a dip in clerkship numbers it was only last year, most likely an anomaly.

Hahaha, no. I'm not trolling; just telling the truth. Look at NLJ numbers for several years going back and you'll see NYU always places fewer students into big law than the other two.

Also, my comment was actually more of a compliment of Penn than a troll of NYU. How can you argue that "T6" is based on anything other than admissions stats when Penn has, at the very least (without regard to Columbia or Chicago), far outperformed NYU in overall placement in recent years?

[04102014]

Maybe I'm just an old man, but was anyone else surprised that 41% of Penn's latest class is straight from undergrad? For some reason that seems really high to me.

Edit: To compare, Harvard c/o 2016 has 28% directly from college, NYU is at 27%. On the opposite end, NU was at 10% for c/o 2015.

[bouleversement]

Maybe I'm just an old man, but was anyone else surprised that 41% of Penn's latest class is straight from undergrad? For some reason that seems really high to me.

Edit: To compare, Harvard c/o 2016 has 28% directly from college, NYU is at 27%. On the opposite end, NU was at 10% for c/o 2015.

No, it is high. And 164 for a 25th LSAT seems really low.

[longlivetheking]

Hahaha, no. I'm not trolling; just telling the truth. Look at NLJ numbers for several years going back and you'll see NYU always places fewer students into big law than the other two.

Also, my comment was actually more of a compliment of Penn than a troll of NYU. How can you argue that "T6" is based on anything other than admissions stats when Penn has, at the very least (without regard to Columbia or Chicago), far outperformed NYU in overall placement in recent years?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... zanc&gid=1

lets not forget NYU has a PI-bias which gets lost in the Clerkship+Biglaw focus. Also for top tier firms V20, NYU definitely has an advantage over Penn.

[Real Madrid]

Hahaha, no. I'm not trolling; just telling the truth. Look at NLJ numbers for several years going back and you'll see NYU always places fewer students into big law than the other two.

Also, my comment was actually more of a compliment of Penn than a troll of NYU. How can you argue that "T6" is based on anything other than admissions stats when Penn has, at the very least (without regard to Columbia or Chicago), far outperformed NYU in overall placement in recent years?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... zanc&gid=1

lets not forget NYU has a PI-bias which gets lost in the Clerkship+Biglaw focus. Also for top tier firms V20, NYU definitely has an advantage over Penn.

Again, you examined one year - the year when NYU actually performed best relative to Penn, CLS and Chicago with regards to big law, but still underperformed them. In the previous two years the numbers were not as close. So unless you're arguing that "peer groups" of schools should be changed yearly based on a single year's performance, we should be looking at an aggregate of the most recent years.

And with regards to the PI bias: You know what other schools have large percentages of students interested in PI and government? Berkeley, Michigan and Georgetown, and at least with the latter two, those biases have rarely been used as a defense on these forums for their (relatively) poor big law performance. So why the double standard? That bias excuses NYU performing behind its "peers" and is irrelevant when comparing Michigan and GULC to its peers (as we've seen evidenced in this very thread)?

[Dmini7]

On a side note: I updated the spreadsheet with a few lower ranked schools. Temple and WVU both had a drop of over 20 students and still couldn't maintain medians.

[altoid99]

Where are we getting those numbers for Wake? I couldn't find them online anywhere

[BigZuck]

Hahaha, no. I'm not trolling; just telling the truth. Look at NLJ numbers for several years going back and you'll see NYU always places fewer students into big law than the other two.

Also, my comment was actually more of a compliment of Penn than a troll of NYU. How can you argue that "T6" is based on anything other than admissions stats when Penn has, at the very least (without regard to Columbia or Chicago), far outperformed NYU in overall placement in recent years?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... zanc&gid=1

lets not forget NYU has a PI-bias which gets lost in the Clerkship+Biglaw focus. Also for top tier firms V20, NYU definitely has an advantage over Penn.

Again, you examined one year - the year when NYU actually performed best relative to Penn, CLS and Chicago with regards to big law, but still underperformed them. In the previous two years the numbers were not as close. So unless you're arguing that "peer groups" of schools should be changed yearly based on a single year's performance, we should be looking at an aggregate of the most recent years.

And with regards to the PI bias: You know what other schools have large percentages of students interested in PI and government? Berkeley, Michigan and Georgetown, and at least with the latter two, those biases have rarely been used as a defense on these forums for their (relatively) poor big law performance. So why the double standard? That bias excuses NYU performing behind its "peers" and is irrelevant when comparing Michigan and GULC to its peers (as we've seen evidenced in this very thread)?

If you haven't seen a PI slant as an excuse for Michigan's performance then you haven't been reading these forums. It's one of many excuses people use to defend that TTTT in decline.

#t12

[20141023]

.

[Yukos]

Believe or not, the "PI affects NYU's placement" argument has been done many times before on TLS. I'll go through the whole thing so you guys don't have to.

Penn supporter: NYU's placement is way worse than Penn's. It should be CCP!

NYU supporter: But lots of people go to NYU to get PI jobs, so of course our big law/clerkship scores are lower. These people probably could get firm jobs if they wanted to.

PS: Then why did the percentage of students "self-selecting" into PI skyrocket after the recession? In 2007 nearly every NYU student was going into big law.

NYUS: Well I can't really say why people were making decisions back then, but I can tell you I know a lot of people here who would never go to OCI, and it's probably fair to say that NYU has developed such a reputation for PI that in recent years the composition of enrollees really has become more PI-biased, no matter what the situation was in 2007. Plus, PI has arguably been hit harder than big law in the downturn, so it wouldn't make sense that people were bailing out to PI.

PS: Oh, so all you have to respond is anecdotes and speculation? CCP 4ever.

And so on.

-----

IMO the NYU PI-bias is real. All I have is anecdotes and speculation but the focus of NYU seemed very different from the other schools I visited, and I met a ton of people who really wanted NYU because of their PI focus and would disappointed if they ended up at Columbia or Penn. Not to say they're not going to be doing OCI next summer, but NYU's PI reputation is probably the most distinguishing thing about it so it wouldn't be surprising if they had a lot more people who are naturally going to self-select out of big law. No one can take anything away from Penn though, they've been killing it the last few years.

[Real Madrid]

Again, you examined one year - the year when NYU actually performed best relative to Penn, CLS and Chicago with regards to big law, but still underperformed them. In the previous two years the numbers were not as close. So unless you're arguing that "peer groups" of schools should be changed yearly based on a single year's performance, we should be looking at an aggregate of the most recent years.

And with regards to the PI bias: You know what other schools have large percentages of students interested in PI and government? Berkeley, Michigan and Georgetown, and at least with the latter two, those biases have rarely been used as a defense on these forums for their (relatively) poor big law performance. So why the double standard? That bias excuses NYU performing behind its "peers" and is irrelevant when comparing Michigan and GULC to its peers (as we've seen evidenced in this very thread)?

Here... I removed some of the "noise" from the charts linked above in a new Google doc to better visualize the relevant data.

As you can see, NYU isn't really behind its peers at all (it is actually ahead of UChicago and a little bit behind Columbia) once PI is included, whereas UMich is way below its peer schools (Berkeley, Virginia & Penn) as well as schools ranked below it (Duke & Cornell) even if we add in the PI. GULC, as you will notice, is in limbo between the rest of the T14 and the T18 schools.

Also, for some reason, I haven't heard as much about the PI programs at schools like Berkeley, Michigan, and GULC, whereas I have heard a lot of people mentioning wanting to go to NYU for it's PI program (I haven't heard anyone same the same thing about Michigan, for example, although I'm sure there are such people out there). Additionally, NYU was able to place 14.3% of its last class into PI, which is quite a bit more than any of these other schools, so the "self-selection into PI taking a toll on biglaw numbers" would have a bigger impact here if true than elsewhere. NYU actually has the 3rd highest PI employment rate of any ABA-approved law school (1st is CUNY at 19.1%, and 2nd is Northeastern at 14.9% ).

Hasn't it been established that the PI numbers are erroneous because they - in cases like NYU and UVA - report school-funded jobs? I remember seeing a comparison of UVA's PI numbers skyrocketing from around 4% to near 20% year over year after the establishment of its school-funded program. I don't think Michigan's school-funded jobs count for PI; Cal's are minimal and for sure don't.

[Tiago Splitter]

Believe or not, the "PI affects NYU's placement" argument has been done many times before on TLS. I'll go through the whole thing so you guys don't have to.

Penn supporter: NYU's placement is way worse than Penn's. It should be CCP!

NYU supporter: But lots of people go to NYU to get PI jobs, so of course our big law/clerkship scores are lower. These people probably could get firm jobs if they wanted to.

PS: Then why did the percentage of students "self-selecting" into PI skyrocket after the recession? In 2007 nearly every NYU student was going into big law.

NYUS: Well I can't really say why people were making decisions back then, but I can tell you I know a lot of people here who would never go to OCI, and it's probably fair to say that NYU has developed such a reputation for PI that in recent years the composition of enrollees really has become more PI-biased, no matter what the situation was in 2007. Plus, PI has arguably been hit harder than big law in the downturn, so it wouldn't make sense that people were bailing out to PI.

PS: Oh, so all you have to respond is anecdotes and speculation? CCP 4ever.

And so on.

-----

IMO the NYU PI-bias is real. All I have is anecdotes and speculation but the focus of NYU seemed very different from the other schools I visited, and I met a ton of people who really wanted NYU because of their PI focus and would disappointed if they ended up at Columbia or Penn. Not to say they're not going to be doing OCI next summer, but NYU's PI reputation is probably the most distinguishing thing about it so it wouldn't be surprising if they had a lot more people who are naturally going to self-select out of big law. No one can take anything away from Penn though, they've been killing it the last few years.

While I agree with you on some level I can't explain the 2007-2008 numbers.

[byronmullens]

Uh what happened to the spreadsheet? It's like completely unreadable now

[062914123]

.

[ManoftheHour]

Uh what happened to the spreadsheet? It's like completely unreadable now

yeah it's really fucked up. just a suggestion, but maybe it shouldn't be publicly editable?

I was thinking about how dangerous it is to allow anyone to edit it.

For a while, it was okay, but now some asshole decides to mess it up.

[04102014]

It looks fine to me.

[062914123]

.

[man_utd_4l]

Marquette's numbers. https://law.marquette.edu/prospective-s ... s-profiles

Class of 2015
Median GPA: 3.40
75th GPA: 3.56
25th GPA: 3.15
Median LSAT: 155
75th LSAT: 158
25th LSAT: 153
224 enrolled students

Class of 2016
Median GPA: 3.29 [-.11]
75th GPA: 3.52 [-.04]
25th GPA: 2.97 [-.18]
Median LSAT: 155 [-]
75th LSAT: 157 [-1]
25th LSAT: 151 [-2]
212 enrolled students [-12]

[ManoftheHour]

I want to see the medians for HasTTTTings, Loyola, and Pepperdine.

Them Cali schools going down.

[t-14orbust]

I want to see the medians for HasTTTTings, Loyola, and Pepperdine.

Them Cali schools going down.

What about TTThomas Jefferson and WesTTTern?