C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

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suzige
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby suzige » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:39 am

BentleyLittle wrote:Any info on John Marshall Chicago? I need hard data to dissuade my OL friends from matriculating.


Dear god...
If all the info on here and on the internet in general is not enough to make them believe they aren't the one special snowflake who will come out of there w a decent paying job then I don't know...
I tried convincing a guy not to go there for sticker. So did his friend who just graduated from JM Chicago and doesn't have a job and has 6 figure debt. Stupidity at its best.

BigZuck
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby BigZuck » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:09 am

altoid99 wrote:
BentleyLittle wrote:
altoid99 wrote:LOL @ Valparaiso's 143 median (down 6 points from last year!?!). That's even lower than Cooley's 145. Perhaps the lowest ever (outside of the ABA-accredited Puerto Rican law schools).

Cooley's standard 509 for 2013: http://www.cooley.edu/publicinformation/_docs/2013_aba_standard_509_information.pdf


Man every time I log on to TLS I Valpo ads. Do we have 509 stats or a link to their info?


http://www.valpo.edu/law/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Std509InfoReport-VULS-2013.pdf


Holy crap. Does anyone know what the average LSAT score would be if you just totally guessed (aka got 20% of the questions right?)

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altoid99
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby altoid99 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:26 am

BigZuck wrote: Holy crap. Does anyone know what the average LSAT score would be if you just totally guessed (aka got 20% of the questions right?)


Randomly guessing should get you about ~20 right, which roughly translates into a 125 give or take a few points. On the last released LSAT (October 2013), you only needed to get 44 out of 101 correct to get a 143 :shock:

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Winston1984
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Winston1984 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:37 am

Looking at the acceptance rate for both of those schools, how awful would you feel being denied?

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KennyP
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby KennyP » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:13 pm

https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/2644-aba-required

Penn's medians are out:

Median LSAT = 169 (-1)
Median GPA = 3.89 (+0.02)

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Toby Ziegler
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Toby Ziegler » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:14 pm

KennyP wrote:https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/2644-aba-required

Penn's medians are out:

Median LSAT = 169 (-1)
Median GPA = 3.89 (+0.02)

Been waiting for this for awhile. Nice first post.

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KennyP
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby KennyP » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:38 pm

Northwestern's median LSAT is 168 when including the 28 students enrolled in the Accelerated JD Program and the 27 students enrolled in the JD-MBA Program:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/facts/documents/2013-ABA-Standard-509-Information-Report.pdf

Excluding these students, NU's median LSAT is 169:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/profile/jdprofile.html

Do we know which number US News uses?

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jbagelboy
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:38 pm

Travis12 wrote:
KennyP wrote:https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/2644-aba-required

Penn's medians are out:

Median LSAT = 169 (-1)
Median GPA = 3.89 (+0.02)

Been waiting for this for awhile. Nice first post.


OUCH. Did not expect that 169.

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sinfiery
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby sinfiery » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:43 pm

And the numbers are probably dropping again this year. This be crazy.

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lawschool22
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby lawschool22 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:46 pm

If they all are dropping similarly, does the value of a top-tier LSAT (173+) diminish? It seems like this could almost hurt splitters somewhat at the middle-tier T14's

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altoid99
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby altoid99 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:54 pm

KennyP wrote:Northwestern's median LSAT is 168 when including the 28 students enrolled in the Accelerated JD Program and the 27 students enrolled in the JD-MBA Program:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/facts/documents/2013-ABA-Standard-509-Information-Report.pdf

Excluding these students, NU's median LSAT is 169:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/profile/jdprofile.html

Do we know which number US News uses?


I believe it's the 168 (the one reported to the ABA)

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bombaysippin
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby bombaysippin » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:55 pm

lawschool22 wrote:If they all are dropping similarly, does the value of a top-tier LSAT (173+) diminish? It seems like this could almost hurt splitters somewhat at the middle-tier T14's


You don't think the value of GPAs diminishes more? Unless I'm not understanding exactly what you mean. 173+ should be the first kids picked in gym class if schools are trying to maintain/get back medians. I don't see how those scores would be valued less.

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lawschool22
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby lawschool22 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:01 pm

Bajam wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:If they all are dropping similarly, does the value of a top-tier LSAT (173+) diminish? It seems like this could almost hurt splitters somewhat at the middle-tier T14's


You don't think the value of GPAs diminishes more? Unless I'm not understanding exactly what you mean. 173+ should be the first kids picked in gym class if schools are trying to maintain/get back medians. I don't see how those scores would be valued less.


What I'm saying is, at this point a 170 is now considered "above median" and is useful for trying to improve Penn's (or another similar school's) median above peer schools, and 169 is now at-median. What this means is there are now more people with above median scores than before, and more people with at median scores than before. Theoretically this increases the chances that you will have candidates who are at or above both medians than you did before, because an "above" or "at" median score is now less rare. So they don't need to gobble up that splitter as frequently, because they can now just as easily get a kid with a 169 and median GPA.

Does that make any sense? lol

tlsthrowaway
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby tlsthrowaway » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:09 pm

I don't know my stats that well, but it seems like the value of a splitter (in the context of what you two seem to be debating) will depend on what schools are trying to do with their medians. If they are trying to maintain their medians where they are NOW, I can see it being the case that a splitter's value drops because, like lawschool22 said, there are more at/above medians to choose from. But it also kind of seems like splitters should be valued higher if schools are trying to raise their medians/get their medians back up to where they were, right? Or am I just bad at the maths.

kingpin101
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby kingpin101 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:14 pm

Also, can we get some consistency regarding Northwestern? Why are we including the accelerated and MBA classes into the LSAT median yet excluding them with the class size?

scoopDeeDoo
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby scoopDeeDoo » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:18 pm

..
Last edited by scoopDeeDoo on Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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lawschool22
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby lawschool22 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:20 pm

scoopDeeDoo wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:
Bajam wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:If they all are dropping similarly, does the value of a top-tier LSAT (173+) diminish? It seems like this could almost hurt splitters somewhat at the middle-tier T14's


You don't think the value of GPAs diminishes more? Unless I'm not understanding exactly what you mean. 173+ should be the first kids picked in gym class if schools are trying to maintain/get back medians. I don't see how those scores would be valued less.


What I'm saying is, at this point a 170 is now considered "above median" and is useful for trying to improve Penn's (or another similar school's) median above peer schools, and 169 is now at-median. What this means is there are now more people with above median scores than before, and more people with at median scores than before. Theoretically this increases the chances that you will have candidates who are at or above both medians than you did before, because an "above" or "at" median score is now less rare. So they don't need to gobble up that splitter as frequently, because they can now just as easily get a kid with a 169 and median GPA.

Does that make any sense? lol


I don't think bolded is true. If the number of applicants with high LSAT scores stayed the same then schools' medians wouldn't be dropping.


I guess what I mean to say is as a percent of total applicants there are more students with at or above median LSATs. And I don't know if what I'm thinking about is how it would play out, I'm just going through a though exercise.

scoopDeeDoo
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby scoopDeeDoo » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:22 pm

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Last edited by scoopDeeDoo on Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jbagelboy
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:32 pm

I think GPAs are definitely not "more valuable" in the sense that having a high gpa makes yoh more competitive than in previous cycles. To me, this is evidenced by the trend where schools losing -1 or even -2 LSAT actually increased their GPA medians this cycle, probably to compensate for the USN hit they are taking, and they can do this because of the easy availability of 16x/3.8+.

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lawschool22
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby lawschool22 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:38 pm

jbagelboy wrote:I think GPAs are definitely not "more valuable" in the sense that having a high gpa makes yoh more competitive than in previous cycles. To me, this is evidenced by the trend where schools losing -1 or even -2 LSAT actually increased their GPA medians this cycle, probably to compensate for the USN hit they are taking, and they can do this because of the easy availability of 16x/3.8+.


I'm not saying they're more valuable. I'm saying that perhaps a splitter becomes less valuable, when now there may be a candidate who also as an above median LSAT and a better GPA than the splitter.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby ManoftheHour » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:40 pm

scoopDeeDoo wrote:LSAT medians have dropped, but so have the number of applicants who have high LSAT scores. Otherwise, the medians wouldn't be dropping like they are.


This. The largest % drops in people attending law schools are from the higher scoring groups. In fact, the people with TTT LSATs are actually increasing in attendance.
Last edited by ManoftheHour on Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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altoid99
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby altoid99 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:40 pm

lawschool22 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I think GPAs are definitely not "more valuable" in the sense that having a high gpa makes yoh more competitive than in previous cycles. To me, this is evidenced by the trend where schools losing -1 or even -2 LSAT actually increased their GPA medians this cycle, probably to compensate for the USN hit they are taking, and they can do this because of the easy availability of 16x/3.8+.


I'm not saying they're more valuable. I'm saying that perhaps a splitter becomes less valuable, when now there may be a candidate who also as an above median LSAT and a better GPA than the splitter.


I think you're assuming that the number of high-scorers has remained constant and now schools with lowered medians have a bigger pool to choose from. But that's not true. There's been a sharp decrease in the number of high-scorers--otherwise we wouldn't be seeing all red on the spreadsheet.

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lawschool22
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby lawschool22 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:43 pm

altoid99 wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I think GPAs are definitely not "more valuable" in the sense that having a high gpa makes yoh more competitive than in previous cycles. To me, this is evidenced by the trend where schools losing -1 or even -2 LSAT actually increased their GPA medians this cycle, probably to compensate for the USN hit they are taking, and they can do this because of the easy availability of 16x/3.8+.


I'm not saying they're more valuable. I'm saying that perhaps a splitter becomes less valuable, when now there may be a candidate who also as an above median LSAT and a better GPA than the splitter.


I think you're assuming that the number of high-scorers has remained constant and now schools with lowered medians have a bigger pool to choose from. But that's not true. There's been a sharp decrease in the number of high-scorers--otherwise we wouldn't be seeing all red on the spreadsheet.


Yeah, and overall I think that high LSAT's are becoming increasingly valuable. Talking through it with you all makes me think that splitters with high LSAT's will still be in a great position until schools start reducing class sizes.

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nothingtosee
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby nothingtosee » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:47 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
scoopDeeDoo wrote:LSAT medians have dropped, but so have the number of applicants who have high LSAT scores. Otherwise, the medians wouldn't be dropping like they are.


This. The largest % drops in people attending law schools are from the higher scoring groups. In fact, the people with TTT LSATs are actually increasing in attendance.


That was true last cycle. The opposite is true this cycle. 175+ are up 10% and 170+ are only down 2%

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altoid99
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby altoid99 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:50 pm

nothingtosee wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
scoopDeeDoo wrote:LSAT medians have dropped, but so have the number of applicants who have high LSAT scores. Otherwise, the medians wouldn't be dropping like they are.


This. The largest % drops in people attending law schools are from the higher scoring groups. In fact, the people with TTT LSATs are actually increasing in attendance.


That was true last cycle. The opposite is true this cycle. 175+ are up 10% and 170+ are only down 2%


The percentages are misleading since the number in the 175+ bracket is so small.




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