C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

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cotiger
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby cotiger » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:24 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
cotiger wrote:I don't think the self-selection thing totally holds water. The rest of the lower T14 have unemployment/ST/PT scores that are 10+ (except for B at 8.3). Penn's is 3. I'm assuming people aren't self-selecting into underemployment. To be fair, last year was particularly good for Penn, but even taking a 3 year average it's Penn 6.7>Michigan 9.1>Berkeley 9.9>Cool fellowships, UVA. CCN, though, are significantly better at 3-4%.

If we just focus on placement power within firms (and federal clerkships), which takes away self-selection issues, and assign 1 point to 101-250, 3 points to 251-500, 10 points to 501+, and 10 points to federal clerkships (zero points to 100 and below), the average scores are Penn 7.8>UVA 7.4>Berkeley 7.3>Michigan 6.8. CChiN come in at 8.6, 7.6, 8.4.

Looking at it now, it does seem that Penn is closer to MVB than to CCN. Still, it's definitely inching up there, and I would hope that discussion of the relative placement of schools isn't such a sacred cow that we need to be careful about looking into it without incurring the wrath of said loungers.


What is your rationale for the weights you assigned different firm sizes there? Just random?


Pretty much. Not a particularly informed judgement, but just from scoping out TLS it seems like the V5/10/25 whatever are the most highly sought after places and are also basically the biggest firms (?). Plus, practically everyone from Yale in a firm job is in a 501+, so I assume that's overwhelmingly where people want to go if they can. Plus, I've read on TLS that the 101-250 category includes a lot of firms that wouldn't really be considered "biglaw" in the traditional sense of market salary, bonuses, etc.

Changing up the weights to, say, 10:5:3 or 10:7:5 doesn't affect the ordering of the schools, although weighting the smaller biglaw categories more does move Penn a bit closer to CN.

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Louis1127
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Louis1127 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:54 am

Anybody heard/discovered anything from Bama? According to some folks earlier in this thread, they said they would release medians at the end of October.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby ScottRiqui » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:33 pm

Louis1127 wrote:Anybody heard/discovered anything from Bama? According to some folks earlier in this thread, they said they would release medians at the end of October.


Every day, I'm more convinced that some schools are doing the "if we never release, maybe they won't notice" thing. There may even be a couple where we won't know for certain until the USNWR rankings come out.

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outlawscr10
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby outlawscr10 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:06 pm

Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.

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jingosaur
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby jingosaur » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:23 pm

outlawscr10 wrote:Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.


No. As long as their OCI stays strong, they'll stay in the T-14. They aren't as splitter friendly as peer schools which is one of the explanations that people use for why their medians are lower.

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outlawscr10
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby outlawscr10 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:25 pm

jingosaur wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.


No. As long as their OCI stays strong, they'll stay in the T-14. They aren't as splitter friendly as peer schools which is one of the explanations that people use for why their medians are lower.



I see that now. Their LSAT and GPA ranges are pretty low.

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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby BigZuck » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:51 pm

outlawscr10 wrote:Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.


No. It's an Ivy League school with solid prestige and good employment stats. Who would overtake them? UT? UCLA? Vandy?

lolno

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McAvoy
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby McAvoy » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:03 pm

Just trying to get an idea, what's the consensus on medians for our cycle? Same downward trend, a plunge, leveling out?

Number of test takers was down significantly for June & October, right?

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stillwater
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby stillwater » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:05 pm

Will_McAvoy wrote:Just trying to get an idea, what's the consensus on medians for our cycle? Same downward trend, a plunge, leveling out?

Number of test takers was down significantly for June & October, right?


look at the chart bro. the bottoming out hasn't occurred yet. bring on the lawpocalypse!!!

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cannibal ox
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby cannibal ox » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:08 pm

June 2013 was down 5% from June 2012.

October 2013 was down 11% from October 2012.

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cotiger
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby cotiger » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:09 pm

Will_McAvoy wrote:Just trying to get an idea, what's the consensus on medians for our cycle? Same downward trend, a plunge, leveling out?

Number of test takers was down significantly for June & October, right?


Well, either medians are going to continue to fall, or schools are going to have to get even more numbers-driven than they are presently, which would be pretty tough to do.

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McAvoy
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby McAvoy » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:10 pm

stillwater wrote:
Will_McAvoy wrote:Just trying to get an idea, what's the consensus on medians for our cycle? Same downward trend, a plunge, leveling out?

Number of test takers was down significantly for June & October, right?


look at the chart bro. the bottoming out hasn't occurred yet. bring on the lawpocalypse!!!


Sweet. I've obviously looked at the chart, just trying to get an idea from you megaposters about what's coming next.

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cotiger
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby cotiger » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:12 pm

cannibal ox wrote:June 2013 was down 5% from June 2012.

October 2013 was down 11% from October 2012.


The reduction of first-time test takers by 13% in Oct 2013 is an even better metric. Although at this point we're splitting hairs--the number of applicants is going to continue its precipitous decline.

californiauser
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby californiauser » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:17 pm

outlawscr10 wrote:Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.


Weird UT trolling

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stillwater
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby stillwater » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:22 pm

californiauser wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.


Weird UT trolling


T14 is kind of set in stone. So, no. Could it fall out of the T14 for a year? Sure. It won't just stop being T14 tho.

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outlawscr10
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby outlawscr10 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:24 pm

californiauser wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.


Weird UT trolling


More like prospective Cornell applicant.

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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby californiauser » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:26 pm

outlawscr10 wrote:
californiauser wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.


Weird UT trolling


More like prospective Cornell applicant.


If Cornell drops to 15, do you think employers are going to stop showing up at OCI or something?

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outlawscr10
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby outlawscr10 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:27 pm

californiauser wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:
californiauser wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.


Weird UT trolling


More like prospective Cornell applicant.


If Cornell drops to 15, do you think employers are going to stop showing up at OCI or something?


I'll gladly defer to your expertise on that question.

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stillwater
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby stillwater » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:28 pm

hint: they wont stop showing up.

pancho
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby pancho » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:29 pm

BigZuck wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.


No. It's an Ivy League school with solid prestige and good employment stats. Who would overtake them? UT? UCLA? Vandy?

lolno


They don't have to be replaced. They could tie for 15 with one of those schools.

I don't see any of the 14 falling anytime soon but wouldn't G be the most likely? Medians aren't everything.

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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby pancho » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:33 pm

cotiger wrote:
cannibal ox wrote:June 2013 was down 5% from June 2012.

October 2013 was down 11% from October 2012.


The reduction of first-time test takers by 13% in Oct 2013 is an even better metric. Although at this point we're splitting hairs--the number of applicants is going to continue its precipitous decline.


Which begs the question: should those who are able to wait another cycle do so? Why would it be advisable to apply before this downturn bottoms if one isn't otherwise compelled to?

Schools will try to adjust to the new normal but cutting class size only goes so far. A bigger threat would be changes to the LSAT that remove the 99th percentile granularity. This would devastate splitters but won't happen overnight.

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Lavitz
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Lavitz » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:52 pm

pancho wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.


No. It's an Ivy League school with solid prestige and good employment stats. Who would overtake them? UT? UCLA? Vandy?

lolno


They don't have to be replaced. They could tie for 15 with one of those schools.

I don't see any of the 14 falling anytime soon but wouldn't G be the most likely? Medians aren't everything.

Right. Cornell's medians are 1 LSAT point and .05 GPA lower than Michigan's. That's not really considerably lower.

Then that's only one component of USNWR. It's probably the easiest component for the schools to influence, but reputation scores are more important and aren't going to change from year to year.

Cornell was still ranked above GULC in the latest rankings. That was when GULC's medians were 169/3.73, Vandy's were 169/3.7, and Cornell's were 167/3.68. The fact that Cornell still ranked above GULC in that situation suggests its relatively higher scores in other areas such as reputation. Now GULC's and Vandy's LSAT medians went down and Cornell's remained stable. Cornell also introduced ED as a new tool for admissions this year, so I'm sure it will hold the 167 for another cycle.

So there's really no chance of Cornell falling out of T-14 anytime soon. And as has been pointed out, employers wouldn't notice if they did.

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snagglepuss
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby snagglepuss » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:57 pm

Median GPA and LSAT are very important for admissions purposes, but their effects on the rankings are much less significant as Lavitz said. 55% of the rankings are determined by quality assessment and faculty resources. Peer assessment scores, judge/lawyer assessment scores, and $ spent on expenditures have made the T14 a thing since the beginning and will continue to keep the changes in rankings from being drastic or exciting. A couple point deficit (relative to similar ranked schools) in LSAT median isn't going to send schools hurtling down the rankings as we've seen (Cornell/Berkeley/Stanford). So, all the rankings speculation is tiresome.

Also: http://begthequestion.info/
Last edited by snagglepuss on Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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outlawscr10
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby outlawscr10 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:57 pm

Lavitz wrote:
pancho wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
outlawscr10 wrote:Any chance of Cornell falling out of the T14? Median GPA and median LSAT is considerably lower than anyone else's.


No. It's an Ivy League school with solid prestige and good employment stats. Who would overtake them? UT? UCLA? Vandy?

lolno


They don't have to be replaced. They could tie for 15 with one of those schools.

I don't see any of the 14 falling anytime soon but wouldn't G be the most likely? Medians aren't everything.

Right. Cornell's medians are 1 LSAT point and .05 GPA lower than Michigan's. That's not really considerably lower.

Then that's only one component of USNWR. It's probably the easiest component for the schools to influence, but reputation scores are more important and aren't going to change from year to year.

Cornell was still ranked above GULC in the latest rankings. That was when GULC's medians were 169/3.73, Vandy's were 169/3.7, and Cornell's were 167/3.68. The fact that Cornell still ranked above GULC in that situation suggests its relatively higher scores in other areas such as reputation. Now GULC's and Vandy's LSAT medians went down and Cornell's remained stable. Cornell also introduced ED as a new tool for admissions this year, so I'm sure it will hold the 167 for another cycle.

So there's really no chance of Cornell falling out of T-14 anytime soon. And as has been pointed out, employers wouldn't notice if they did.


Cheers. Thanks for the insight.

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cotiger
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby cotiger » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:00 pm

pancho wrote:
cotiger wrote:
cannibal ox wrote:June 2013 was down 5% from June 2012.

October 2013 was down 11% from October 2012.


The reduction of first-time test takers by 13% in Oct 2013 is an even better metric. Although at this point we're splitting hairs--the number of applicants is going to continue its precipitous decline.


Which begs the question: should those who are able to wait another cycle do so? Why would it be advisable to apply before this downturn bottoms if one isn't otherwise compelled to?

Schools will try to adjust to the new normal but cutting class size only goes so far. A bigger threat would be changes to the LSAT that remove the 99th percentile granularity. This would devastate splitters but won't happen overnight.


I think you'll be fine if you wait to apply until next year.

But I have to say that in general trying to time the market can often leave you in a worse position than you would've been in originally. If you feel ready to apply to law school this year, do it. Don't sit around waiting for some hypothetical future where everything is even awesomer merely for the sake of possibly gaining that slight extra advantage.




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