C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

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MikeSpivey
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:14 pm

I have to be brief because of workload and commitments but here is my take on my conjecture that Penn will be down in LSAT this year.

A very telling indicator on where a law school is with LSAT can be found on who they are admitting off the WL late game. Late summer I remember running reports multiple times and day and just staring at the median LSAT vis-a-vis how much cushion you had above you. If it was something like 3 people I would then be on the phone with those 3 people "hey man just checking in to see if you had found a place to live or if I could help you with that"..."want to get lunch when you get to town"...etc etc. (does that sound cheesy? I actually always thought of that as me doing my job well but I would be curious what you all think).

So, if Penn is taking people late game off the WL below 170, and it seems there were, that tells me 1 of 2 things. (1) that their cushion is so strong they can go to those they like...a wonderful thing in admissions for many reasons. However this cycle that just strikes me as highly unlikely. Or (2), they are at 169 with a really strong cushion so then can do the same.

this is just based on years of being on the law admissions side and knowing how it works and thus having a gut feeling on it. Certainly I can easily be wrong...

californiauser
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby californiauser » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:27 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
bimmer11 wrote:Also if Penn somehow holds their 170, it will be interesting to see how UVA reacts. It would give further credence to the CCNP grouping.


Penn's LSAT median has nothing to do with whether CCNP is a thing. That conversation is strictly about placement power.


I thought the HYS - CCN - MVP etc. rankings all had to do with admissions and not necessarily placement power. For example, if you want NYC big law, wouldn't Cornell make more sense than Michigan even though the "MVP" bracket is considered a sub-tier above whatever group Cornell is in?
Last edited by californiauser on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:43 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:I have to be brief because of workload and commitments but here is my take on my conjecture that Penn will be down in LSAT this year.

A very telling indicator on where a law school is with LSAT can be found on who they are admitting off the WL late game. Late summer I remember running reports multiple times and day and just staring at the median LSAT vis-a-vis how much cushion you had above you. If it was something like 3 people I would then be on the phone with those 3 people "hey man just checking in to see if you had found a place to live or if I could help you with that"..."want to get lunch when you get to town"...etc etc. (does that sound cheesy? I actually always thought of that as me doing my job well but I would be curious what you all think).

So, if Penn is taking people late game off the WL below 170, and it seems there were, that tells me 1 of 2 things. (1) that their cushion is so strong they can go to those they like...a wonderful thing in admissions for many reasons. However this cycle that just strikes me as highly unlikely. Or (2), they are at 169 with a really strong cushion so then can do the same.

this is just based on years of being on the law admissions side and knowing how it works and thus having a gut feeling on it. Certainly I can easily be wrong...


Interesting. Mike, can you speak to what constitutes a reasonable cushion? If you were a school of Penn's size and you had a cushion of, say, seven or eight students, is that enough to start taking whoever you want instead of just protecting medians? Obviously it would be a disaster to play it too close and have to scramble late summer to "save" your median after a few unfortunate departures.

bimmer11
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby bimmer11 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:15 pm

californiauser wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
bimmer11 wrote:Also if Penn somehow holds their 170, it will be interesting to see how UVA reacts. It would give further credence to the CCNP grouping.


Penn's LSAT median has nothing to do with whether CCNP is a thing. That conversation is strictly about placement power.


I thought the HYS - CCN - MVP etc. rankings all had to do with admissions and not necessarily placement power. For example, if you want NYC big law, wouldn't Cornell make more sense than Michigan even though the "MVP" bracket is considered a sub-tier above whatever group Cornell is in?


This was my rational as well. I can see placement being one factor but I would think admissions plays some part.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:56 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:I have to be brief because of workload and commitments but here is my take on my conjecture that Penn will be down in LSAT this year.

A very telling indicator on where a law school is with LSAT can be found on who they are admitting off the WL late game. Late summer I remember running reports multiple times and day and just staring at the median LSAT vis-a-vis how much cushion you had above you. If it was something like 3 people I would then be on the phone with those 3 people "hey man just checking in to see if you had found a place to live or if I could help you with that"..."want to get lunch when you get to town"...etc etc. (does that sound cheesy? I actually always thought of that as me doing my job well but I would be curious what you all think).

So, if Penn is taking people late game off the WL below 170, and it seems there were, that tells me 1 of 2 things. (1) that their cushion is so strong they can go to those they like...a wonderful thing in admissions for many reasons. However this cycle that just strikes me as highly unlikely. Or (2), they are at 169 with a really strong cushion so then can do the same.

this is just based on years of being on the law admissions side and knowing how it works and thus having a gut feeling on it. Certainly I can easily be wrong...


Interesting. Mike, can you speak to what constitutes a reasonable cushion? If you were a school of Penn's size and you had a cushion of, say, seven or eight students, is that enough to start taking whoever you want instead of just protecting medians? Obviously it would be a disaster to play it too close and have to scramble late summer to "save" your median after a few unfortunate departures.


I imagine it somewhat depends on the school, ie they know how many and how late they lose people and it obviously depends on how far out you are. So from my experience a cushion of 8 above median with a week to go I would be smiling and probably stop calling people and likely even would take my 2-3 favorites score independent off the WL. A "cushion" of 8 above median a month out and I would be digging into files with people above our median and reading their C&F statements and, if everything checked out, admitting them because we would know we would love to have them with only 8 above a month out, particularly as you always lose the strong ones (because they are getting off the WL from the schools ranked ahead of you)...obviously none of this applies to Yale those bastards.
Last edited by MikeSpivey on Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wtrc
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby wtrc » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:27 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:I have to be brief because of workload and commitments but here is my take on my conjecture that Penn will be down in LSAT this year.

A very telling indicator on where a law school is with LSAT can be found on who they are admitting off the WL late game. Late summer I remember running reports multiple times and day and just staring at the median LSAT vis-a-vis how much cushion you had above you. If it was something like 3 people I would then be on the phone with those 3 people "hey man just checking in to see if you had found a place to live or if I could help you with that"..."want to get lunch when you get to town"...etc etc. (does that sound cheesy? I actually always thought of that as me doing my job well but I would be curious what you all think).

So, if Penn is taking people late game off the WL below 170, and it seems there were, that tells me 1 of 2 things. (1) that their cushion is so strong they can go to those they like...a wonderful thing in admissions for many reasons. However this cycle that just strikes me as highly unlikely. Or (2), they are at 169 with a really strong cushion so then can do the same.

this is just based on years of being on the law admissions side and knowing how it works and thus having a gut feeling on it. Certainly I can easily be wrong...


Interesting. Mike, can you speak to what constitutes a reasonable cushion? If you were a school of Penn's size and you had a cushion of, say, seven or eight students, is that enough to start taking whoever you want instead of just protecting medians? Obviously it would be a disaster to play it too close and have to scramble late summer to "save" your median after a few unfortunate departures.


I imagine it somewhat depends on the school, ie they know how many and how late they lose people and it obviously depends on how far out you are. So from my experience a cushion of 8 above median with a week to go I would be smiling and probably stop calling people and likely even would take my 2-3 favorites score independent off the WL. A c"cushion" of 8 above median a month out and I would be digging into files with people above our median and reading their C&F statements and, if everything checked out, admitting them because we would know we would love at least 8 above a month out, particularly as you always lose the strong ones (because they are getting off the WL from the schools ranked ahead of you)...obviously none of this applies to Yale those bastards.


At what point would you close the waitlist? First day of orientation? Classes? Depends on how much a cushion you have?

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KevinP
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby KevinP » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:51 pm

Texas Tech:

155, 3.47, 217

Decline in lsat/gpa and in class size.

http://www.law.ttu.edu/prospective/admissions/faq/

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:25 pm

KevinP wrote:Texas Tech:

155, 3.47, 217

Decline in lsat/gpa and in class size.

http://www.law.ttu.edu/prospective/admissions/faq/


Interested to hear Dean Perez's perspective on this and the greater general discussion of medians going on here.

illiniguy1551
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby illiniguy1551 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:57 pm

Indiana Bloomington:

http://law.indiana.edu/admissions/jd/index.shtml

2013 Entering JD Class

Median 162 LSAT
Median 3.8 GPA
Class Size 204

rebexness
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby rebexness » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:59 pm

illiniguy1551 wrote:Indiana Bloomington:

http://law.indiana.edu/admissions/jd/index.shtml

2013 Entering JD Class

Median 162 LSAT
Median 3.8 GPA
Class Size 204


How on earth can that median GPA be correct?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:04 pm

Is anyone updating this spreadsheet, btw?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... XZnc#gid=0

Or is there anther updated spreadsheet? This is really important stuff that I could have The Spivey Consulting Intern do, if it is not being done.

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Dmini7
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Dmini7 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:15 pm

illiniguy1551 wrote:Indiana Bloomington:

http://law.indiana.edu/admissions/jd/index.shtml

2013 Entering JD Class

Median 162 LSAT
Median 3.8 GPA
Class Size 204


Isn't that a 2 point drop in LSAT? Also, is Indiana one of the universities that have conditional acceptances for its students of the UG who have a certain GPA? That could explain the abnormally high GPA, especially since that is the same GPA they had last year.

04102014
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby 04102014 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:Is anyone updating this spreadsheet, btw?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... XZnc#gid=0

Or is there anther updated spreadsheet? This is really important stuff that I could have The Spivey Consulting Intern do, if it is not being done.


People have been updating it as the data comes in.

itachiuchiha
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby itachiuchiha » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:47 pm

dang, then what would be indianas 25th lsat?

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Motivator9
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Motivator9 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:57 pm

Wow Vandy's median for lsat year (169) is higher than their 75th percentile this year (168). Yikes.

zman
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby zman » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:06 am

rebexness wrote:
illiniguy1551 wrote:Indiana Bloomington:

http://law.indiana.edu/admissions/jd/index.shtml

2013 Entering JD Class

Median 162 LSAT
Median 3.8 GPA
Class Size 204


How on earth can that median GPA be correct?


it's not that hard to get high GPA median if you have poor LSAT scores. there is plenty of high 3.8++ GPA with really low LSAT scores out there that a school can load up on.

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kay2016
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby kay2016 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:21 am

illiniguy1551 wrote:Indiana Bloomington:

http://law.indiana.edu/admissions/jd/index.shtml

2013 Entering JD Class

Median 162 LSAT
Median 3.8 GPA
Class Size 204



Explains so much. Wow.

ETA: Re- my cycle and why they were so persistent after I decided against them.

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danquayle
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby danquayle » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:06 am

Dmini7 wrote:
illiniguy1551 wrote:Indiana Bloomington:

http://law.indiana.edu/admissions/jd/index.shtml

2013 Entering JD Class

Median 162 LSAT
Median 3.8 GPA
Class Size 204


Isn't that a 2 point drop in LSAT? Also, is Indiana one of the universities that have conditional acceptances for its students of the UG who have a certain GPA? That could explain the abnormally high GPA, especially since that is the same GPA they had last year.


Ouch, they had a 166 median just 2 years ago. I theorized the mid T1 would be the worst hit by the diminished applicant pool, but damn. That's lower than when I entered back in 2006.

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vuthy
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby vuthy » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:10 am

danquayle wrote:
Dmini7 wrote:
illiniguy1551 wrote:Indiana Bloomington:

http://law.indiana.edu/admissions/jd/index.shtml

2013 Entering JD Class

Median 162 LSAT
Median 3.8 GPA
Class Size 204


Isn't that a 2 point drop in LSAT? Also, is Indiana one of the universities that have conditional acceptances for its students of the UG who have a certain GPA? That could explain the abnormally high GPA, especially since that is the same GPA they had last year.


Ouch, they had a 166 median just 2 years ago. I theorized the mid T1 would be the worst hit by the diminished applicant pool, but damn. That's lower than when I entered back in 2006.


Gotta figure something similar on the way for Texas and Minnesota, no?

BigZuck
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby BigZuck » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:44 am

vuthy wrote:
danquayle wrote:
Dmini7 wrote:
illiniguy1551 wrote:Indiana Bloomington:

http://law.indiana.edu/admissions/jd/index.shtml

2013 Entering JD Class

Median 162 LSAT
Median 3.8 GPA
Class Size 204


Isn't that a 2 point drop in LSAT? Also, is Indiana one of the universities that have conditional acceptances for its students of the UG who have a certain GPA? That could explain the abnormally high GPA, especially since that is the same GPA they had last year.


Ouch, they had a 166 median just 2 years ago. I theorized the mid T1 would be the worst hit by the diminished applicant pool, but damn. That's lower than when I entered back in 2006.


Gotta figure something similar on the way for Texas and Minnesota, no?


At the risk of homerism: Texas isn't exactly a mid-T1. I'm guessing their median did drop though, it's tough to have to accept so many instate applicants in a declining applicant pool.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:03 am

On the other hand, Texas has a relatively healthy legal market and nice weather. Not sure why anybody would want to go to Minnesota unless you're from there. Think UT outperforms UMN for these reasons

NYstate
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby NYstate » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:21 am

californiauser wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
bimmer11 wrote:Also if Penn somehow holds their 170, it will be interesting to see how UVA reacts. It would give further credence to the CCNP grouping.


Penn's LSAT median has nothing to do with whether CCNP is a thing. That conversation is strictly about placement power.


I thought the HYS - CCN - MVP etc. rankings all had to do with admissions and not necessarily placement power. For example, if you want NYC big law, wouldn't Cornell make more sense than Michigan even though the "MVP" bracket is considered a sub-tier above whatever group Cornell is in?

No, the divisions are employment outcome based, but these outcomes aren't limited to NYC biglaw. Not to derail this thread.

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Robespierre
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby Robespierre » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:26 pm

Interview with Dean Treanor where he says GULC's incoming class will be "slightly smaller" than last year's: http://www.lawdragon.com/lawyer-limelig ... m-treanor/

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size

Postby DrStudMuffin » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:37 pm

Motivator9 wrote:Wow Vandy's median for lsat year (169) is higher than their 75th percentile this year (168). Yikes.


This stood out to me as well. May have been more a result of them barely hanging on to the 169 last year than a huge tumble this year, but either way it's eye catching.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa

Postby ManoftheHour » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:43 pm

RetakeFrenzy wrote:http://www.law.ucla.edu/prospective-students/admission-information/Pages/incoming-class-profile.aspx

UCLA (#17)

293 enrolled
3.51/3.79/3.89
162/167/169


That's fucking awesome.




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