C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size Forum

[ManoftheHour]

I want to see the medians for HasTTTTings, Loyola, and Pepperdine.

Them Cali schools going down.

What about TTThomas Jefferson and WesTTTern?

Perhaps going the way of UoP? Lost more than a third of its class and the got its median LSAT annihilated:

Pacific: 154 (-2); 3.24 (-.08); 162 (-87)

[t-14orbust]

I want to see the medians for HasTTTTings, Loyola, and Pepperdine.

Them Cali schools going down.

What about TTThomas Jefferson and WesTTTern?

Perhaps going the way of UoP? Lost more than a third of its class and the got its median LSAT annihilated:

Pacific: 154 (-2); 3.24 (-.08); 162 (-87)

Forgot Crapman too lol

[jbagelboy]

Lol @ the Penn/NYU back and forth.

I will say that with both schools (likely) at 170 and Penn with the gpa & raw employment advantage, we're looking at a tie-up at 6th at least

[ManoftheHour]

Forgot Crapman too lol

That's a good one.

Although, they just received $55 mil. To put that into perspective, UCI only received $20 mil. It won't help their medians for this cycle, but I'd imagine they'd be throwing around a lot of $$$ with maybe less shiTTTy sTTTTips next cycle.

[t-14orbust]

Forgot Crapman too lol

That's a good one.

Although, they just received $55 mil. To put that into perspective, UCI only received $20 mil. It won't help their medians for this cycle, but I'd imagine they'd be throwing around a lot of $$$ with maybe less shiTTTy sTTTTips next cycle.

very TTTrue. Should be InTTTeresTTTing TTTo waTTTch

[zman]

Good for California...

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Lol @ the Penn/NYU back and forth.

I will say that with both schools (likely) at 170 and Penn with the gpa & raw employment advantage, we're looking at a tie-up at 6th at least

Can someone link the raw data USNWR component table again? (I can't find it) I'm curious to see if NYU would be in any danger of sharing sixth, because my first instinct was that the other bullshit would hold them up. After all, both Penn and UVA had Stanford's medians for a while but couldn't sniff them, and Michigan has been behind Duke and Northwestern in every category I can think of except the all-important "reputational scores given by some 65-year old not-involved-in-hiring partner based entirely on the reputations of those schools in 1972" metric.

[rayiner]

Again, you examined one year - the year when NYU actually performed best relative to Penn, CLS and Chicago with regards to big law, but still underperformed them. In the previous two years the numbers were not as close. So unless you're arguing that "peer groups" of schools should be changed yearly based on a single year's performance, we should be looking at an aggregate of the most recent years.

And with regards to the PI bias: You know what other schools have large percentages of students interested in PI and government? Berkeley, Michigan and Georgetown, and at least with the latter two, those biases have rarely been used as a defense on these forums for their (relatively) poor big law performance. So why the double standard? That bias excuses NYU performing behind its "peers" and is irrelevant when comparing Michigan and GULC to its peers (as we've seen evidenced in this very thread)?

Here... I removed some of the "noise" from the charts linked above in a new Google doc to better visualize the relevant data.

As you can see, NYU isn't really behind its peers at all (it is actually ahead of UChicago and a little bit behind Columbia) once PI is included, whereas UMich is way below its peer schools (Berkeley, Virginia & Penn) as well as schools ranked below it (Duke & Cornell) even if we add in the PI. GULC, as you will notice, is in limbo between the rest of the T14 and the T18 schools.

So for UVA, you've got ~10% in public interest, which corresponds to the 36/364 reported by UVA as working in PI. But these include 55 Powell or Kennedy "fellows" (i.e. school-funded jobs). At the same time you exclude the "business" category, which for Northwestern leaves out 6.5% of the class who are Kellogg JD-MBA's and chose legit business jobs over law jobs.

Ultimately, it's too easy to play games with categories that aren't firms + federal clerkships. Leaving out PI might artificially hurt NYU and Michigan a bit, but at the same time it keeps UVA from getting away with its shenanigans, which is more important.

[Archangel]

Lol @ the Penn/NYU back and forth.

I will say that with both schools (likely) at 170 and Penn with the gpa & raw employment advantage, we're looking at a tie-up at 6th at least

Can someone link the raw data USNWR component table again? (I can't find it) I'm curious to see if NYU would be in any danger of sharing sixth, because my first instinct was that the other bullshit would hold them up. After all, both Penn and UVA had Stanford's medians for a while but couldn't sniff them, and Michigan has been behind Duke and Northwestern in every category I can think of except the all-important "reputational scores given by some 65-year old not-involved-in-hiring partner based entirely on the reputations of those schools in 1972" metric.

This could be what your looking for, http://www.tomwbell.com/images/USNews'1 ... Scores.gif and remember the metrics are being changed this year so this could add to shifts in USNWR in the coming year, http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p6912933 .

[man_utd_4l]

Temple http://www.law.temple.edu/pages/prospec ... ofile.aspx

[midwest17]

So for UVA, you've got ~10% in public interest, which corresponds to the 36/364 reported by UVA as working in PI. But these include 55 Powell or Kennedy "fellows" (i.e. school-funded jobs).

Can someone explain this math to me?

[Tiago Splitter]

So for UVA, you've got ~10% in public interest, which corresponds to the 36/364 reported by UVA as working in PI. But these include 55 Powell or Kennedy "fellows" (i.e. school-funded jobs).

Can someone explain this math to me?

55 school funded jobs. Some are in public interest (as many as 36) and the rest are in other areas.

[midwest17]

So for UVA, you've got ~10% in public interest, which corresponds to the 36/364 reported by UVA as working in PI. But these include 55 Powell or Kennedy "fellows" (i.e. school-funded jobs).

Can someone explain this math to me?

55 school funded jobs. Some are in public interest (as many as 36) and the rest are in other areas.

Ok. So the 36 may include some of the 55, and the fellowships aren't specifically public interest fellowships? That makes a lot more sense.

[20141023]

.

[Real Madrid]

So for UVA, you've got ~10% in public interest, which corresponds to the 36/364 reported by UVA as working in PI. But these include 55 Powell or Kennedy "fellows" (i.e. school-funded jobs). At the same time you exclude the "business" category, which for Northwestern leaves out 6.5% of the class who are Kellogg JD-MBA's and chose legit business jobs over law jobs.

Ultimately, it's too easy to play games with categories that aren't firms + federal clerkships. Leaving out PI might artificially hurt NYU and Michigan a bit, but at the same time it keeps UVA from getting away with its shenanigans, which is more important.

Yeah, I thought about including the "business" category, but it is often even iffier than the PI jobs (many of which are school-funded), so I just left it out altogether. As you'll notice, I didn't burn NU for their employment rates - mainly because I knew it would be unfair to them precisely for the reason you mentioned.

Additionally, there are only 3 schools within the T14 that have a school-funded employment rate over 10%: UVA (15.1%), GULC (13.3%) and NYU (12.9%). (Yale lags right behind them at 9.5%.) These are also the schools with the highest employment rates in PI positions out of the T14, so I think that it is pretty obvious what is going on (lots of grajiates want dem PI jerbs, but the PI employers don't have the money to hire them, so the schools help support the students through fellowships and the like so that they can get their foot in the door).

The reason that UMich and GULC get burned on is because if you look at the graph I posted earlier, you'll notice that the height of UMich/GULC's bars with the PI positions included are still lower than the bars of schools like NYU/UVA without PI included.

I'm not sure I buy the argument about students wanting PI and not getting it, especially at UVA. Before their school funded jobs were created, they consistently had at or under 5% of the class getting PI jobs. Now they all of a sudden have 15-17% in the last two years?
There's been some debate over whether these jobs are even legit to begin with, but I think it's pretty difficult to argue that this new program has somehow given opportunities to an additional 10% of the student population that previously wanted PI and couldn't get it before the program started. UVa isn't - and never has been - a PI-oriented school.

[NoodleyOne]

You could certainly argue it may be a change. Half of my 1L section wants to do PI work. Normally once the amount of loans sink in they go BigLaw, or law school crushes their dreams of helping people.

But honestly, I don't even think that should be the point at issue. UVA pays people to work as lawyers for a year, where they have more of a chance to get their full-time job. Considering the state of the economy, that doesn't seem like an entirely bad thing. You can criticize them for it, and that's fine, but at least acknowledge some good qualities of the program.

[rayiner]

FTR, I don't think we should include either PI or business, even if that's a bit unfair to certain schools. Both categories are too easy to game. E.g. Yale has always had a bunch of PI fellowships, while UVA and Mich coincidentally had a bunch more right after the recession.

[Archangel]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... XZnc#gid=0

somebody messed up the google spread sheet...
why?
whoever you are just gtfo and away plz

[Archangel]

okay restored to a previous revision

[Huskies13!]

Florida State is up:
http://www.law.fsu.edu/prospective_students/index.shtml
159 (-1)
3.51 (-0.02)
170 (-18 or so)...

[sinfiery]

NYU always held a significant PI advantage versus CCP in the boom and non boom times. Significant being 3-10% which explains fully this discrepancy in numbers. In boom times P was more apt for filling the other categories table in private firms sub 250 lawyers whereas NYU grads hitup the Govt/PI category. Anecdotally, the amount of people with PI backgrounds as far as out of school WE is concerned, is high at NYU though this may be true for all schools. PLSF makes debt obligations less important to PI people from their reasonings vs that of biglaw from the people I have talked to. 100k coa is 10 years as much as 300k is. The self selection is a real thing but Penn definitely keeps up in raw % numbers. They still, however, falter because their quality of biglaw jobs are preftigiously worse and admissions is easier and very much gamed (more so than UVA)

That being said, CCNP will be a thing if 170/170 are the new medians and employment data holds steady.

[Huskies13!]

In the "who cares" category:

UMKC:

153
174 enrolled
no GPA..odd.

http://info.umkc.edu/lawnews/2013/08/28 ... aw-school/

[062914123]

.

[AT9]

Florida State is up:
http://www.law.fsu.edu/prospective_students/index.shtml
159 (-1)
3.51 (-0.02)
170 (-18 or so)...

Sweet, scholarship chances looking better at FSU and UF this cycle!

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

NYU always held a significant PI advantage versus CCP in the boom and non boom times. Significant being 3-10% which explains fully this discrepancy in numbers. In boom times P was more apt for filling the other categories table in private firms sub 250 lawyers whereas NYU grads hitup the Govt/PI category. Anecdotally, the amount of people with PI backgrounds as far as out of school WE is concerned, is high at NYU though this may be true for all schools. PLSF makes debt obligations less important to PI people from their reasonings vs that of biglaw from the people I have talked to. 100k coa is 10 years as much as 300k is. The self selection is a real thing but Penn definitely keeps up in raw % numbers. They still, however, falter because their quality of biglaw jobs are preftigiously worse and admissions is easier and very much gamed (more so than UVA)

That being said, CCNP will be a thing if 170/170 are the new medians and employment data holds steady.

CC
NP

/troll