Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

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duallys21
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Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby duallys21 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:51 pm

I was arrested in Hebron, which is in the West Bank. I spent the night in an Israeli jail and was released the next afternoon. There was a hearing in Hebrew (I don't speak or read Hebrew) and no charges were presented to me in English. Upon my release I was given papers stipulating that I do not enter certain distance from a famous Mosque in Hebron (the reasons for this requirement were mysterious to me).

I believe, based on the nature of my interrogation, that my arrest was the result of activist work (documenting human rights issues) that I was engaged in in Hebron. Again, because my charges were not presented in English, it is impossible to be certain.

Its not clear to me whether I was convicted, sentenced, the case was dismissed, or what happened.

Should I disclose?

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Joe Quincy
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby Joe Quincy » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:06 pm

duallys21 wrote:I was arrested in Hebron, which is in the West Bank. I spent the night in an Israeli jail and was released the next afternoon. There was a hearing in Hebrew (I don't speak or read Hebrew) and no charges were presented to me in English. Upon my release I was given papers stipulating that I do not enter certain distance from a famous Mosque in Hebron (the reasons for this requirement were mysterious to me).

I believe, based on the nature of my interrogation, that my arrest was the result of activist work (documenting human rights issues) that I was engaged in in Hebron. Again, because my charges were not presented in English, it is impossible to be certain.

Its not clear to me whether I was convicted, sentenced, the case was dismissed, or what happened.

Should I disclose?


Yes. Call the US Embassy Consular Section and explain the problem and ask them to find out.

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guano
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby guano » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:08 pm

Calling JNE

That being said, this is absolutely something you should disclose

duallys21
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby duallys21 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:14 pm

guano wrote:Calling JNE

That being said, this is absolutely something you should disclose


Sorry, JNE?

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guano
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby guano » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:24 pm

duallys21 wrote:
guano wrote:Calling JNE

That being said, this is absolutely something you should disclose


Sorry, JNE?

A poster notorious for Israel bashing

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guano
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby guano » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:26 pm

To answer your question, this is something you should disclose. If you do not disclose and it comes up during the bar C&F, you probably won't be admitted because of failure to disclose.

C&F asks if you've ever been arrested, not if you've ever been arrested in the US

jdmonkey
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby jdmonkey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:56 am

What if you were arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay? Would this need to be disclosed? Or if you were arrested in Egypt for leaving Islam for Christianity? Some countries have laws that outlaw the type of diversity that law schools seek to foster. I think it would be morally inappropriate to disclose such "crimes."

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guano
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby guano » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:03 pm

jdmonkey wrote:What if you were arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay? Would this need to be disclosed? Or if you were arrested in Egypt for leaving Islam for Christianity? Some countries have laws that outlaw the type of diversity that law schools seek to foster. I think it would be morally inappropriate to disclose such "crimes."

If the question is "have you ever been arrested", then you must disclose. Do realize that just because you disclose an arrest, doesn't mean it'll be held against you. In the above examples it'll make no difference re being admitted to law school or to the bar, however, lying about your arrest record will have a significant impact. Failure to disclose is considered quite serious, for obvious reasons (if you do not think its obvious , maybe you should consider a different profession)

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:08 pm

jdmonkey wrote:What if you were arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay? Would this need to be disclosed? Or if you were arrested in Egypt for leaving Islam for Christianity? Some countries have laws that outlaw the type of diversity that law schools seek to foster. I think it would be morally inappropriate to disclose such "crimes."

I don't think it's at all inappropriate to disclose the fact of the arrest. It would be inappropriate for schools to hold it against you, but I can't imagine that they would. Such an arrest would not reflect in any way on your fitness for being a lawyer, which is what schools care about. But they do care about not disclosing (especially when the question is very straightforward).

bp shinners
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby bp shinners » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:22 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
jdmonkey wrote:What if you were arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay? Would this need to be disclosed? Or if you were arrested in Egypt for leaving Islam for Christianity? Some countries have laws that outlaw the type of diversity that law schools seek to foster. I think it would be morally inappropriate to disclose such "crimes."

I don't think it's at all inappropriate to disclose the fact of the arrest. It would be inappropriate for schools to hold it against you, but I can't imagine that they would. Such an arrest would not reflect in any way on your fitness for being a lawyer, which is what schools care about. But they do care about not disclosing (especially when the question is very straightforward).


That disclosure would actually probably help you as it would be a great story for a diversity/personal statement.

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Joe Quincy
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby Joe Quincy » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:27 pm

jdmonkey wrote:What if you were arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay? Would this need to be disclosed? Or if you were arrested in Egypt for leaving Islam for Christianity? Some countries have laws that outlaw the type of diversity that law schools seek to foster. I think it would be morally inappropriate to disclose such "crimes."


Grrr, mods ignore my report...wrong button.

Nobody cares what you think is moral. The question asks about arrests and you don't get to decide what qualifies. Nor does it ask about crimes. Even if arrested and released as unfounded you must disclose.

Hell, even an arrest due to mistaken identity must be disclosed and explained. Your mistaking the question to be about what it tells us about you and not about collectong data that may or may not tell us anything.
Last edited by Joe Quincy on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

jdmonkey
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby jdmonkey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:28 pm

guano wrote:
jdmonkey wrote:What if you were arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay? Would this need to be disclosed? Or if you were arrested in Egypt for leaving Islam for Christianity? Some countries have laws that outlaw the type of diversity that law schools seek to foster. I think it would be morally inappropriate to disclose such "crimes."

If the question is "have you ever been arrested", then you must disclose. Do realize that just because you disclose an arrest, doesn't mean it'll be held against you. In the above examples it'll make no difference re being admitted to law school or to the bar, however, lying about your arrest record will have a significant impact. Failure to disclose is considered quite serious, for obvious reasons (if you do not think its obvious , maybe you should consider a different profession)


Thank you for your advice on my career goals. I'm not trying to debate black letter law, but simply the morality of it. What does being gay tell us about somebody's performance in law school or character to be an officer of the court. I would suggest nothing. So if it is irrelevant to your qualifications what is to stop law schools from asking if your are obese, HIV positive, a smoker, or any other question to screen out "undesirables." I think that somebody arrested for one of these offenses should sue a law school about the validity of the question, and open this debate to the courts. I don't think it is lawful for a school or employer to ask personal questions about topics that have no bearing on how somebody can perform in school or in a job.

If you lived in France during the German occupation you had a legal duty to report Jews hiding in your house. According to your logic, I'm guessing you would have ratted them out, cause that's what the law said?

NYstate
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby NYstate » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:30 pm

duallys21 wrote:I was arrested in Hebron, which is in the West Bank. I spent the night in an Israeli jail and was released the next afternoon. There was a hearing in Hebrew (I don't speak or read Hebrew) and no charges were presented to me in English. Upon my release I was given papers stipulating that I do not enter certain distance from a famous Mosque in Hebron (the reasons for this requirement were mysterious to me).

I believe, based on the nature of my interrogation, that my arrest was the result of activist work (documenting human rights issues) that I was engaged in in Hebron. Again, because my charges were not presented in English, it is impossible to be certain.

Its not clear to me whether I was convicted, sentenced, the case was dismissed, or what happened.

Should I disclose?


You need to disclose. Before you can disclose, you need to be able to explain what happened. This is important and you need to put some effort into sorting it out. How do you know about staying away from the mosque but nothing else?

Have you traveled overseas since this happened? Did you have any trouble with customs or border control?

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rinkrat19
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby rinkrat19 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:31 pm

jdmonkey wrote:
guano wrote:
jdmonkey wrote:What if you were arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay? Would this need to be disclosed? Or if you were arrested in Egypt for leaving Islam for Christianity? Some countries have laws that outlaw the type of diversity that law schools seek to foster. I think it would be morally inappropriate to disclose such "crimes."

If the question is "have you ever been arrested", then you must disclose. Do realize that just because you disclose an arrest, doesn't mean it'll be held against you. In the above examples it'll make no difference re being admitted to law school or to the bar, however, lying about your arrest record will have a significant impact. Failure to disclose is considered quite serious, for obvious reasons (if you do not think its obvious , maybe you should consider a different profession)


Thank you for your advice on my career goals. I'm not trying to debate black letter law, but simply the morality of it. What does being gay tell us about somebody's performance in law school or character to be an officer of the court. I would suggest nothing. So if it is irrelevant to your qualifications what is to stop law schools from asking if your are obese, HIV positive, a smoker, or any other question to screen out "undesirables." I think that somebody arrested for one of these offenses should sue a law school about the validity of the question, and open this debate to the courts. I don't think it is lawful for a school or employer to ask personal questions about topics that have no bearing on how somebody can perform in school or in a job.

If you lived in France during the German occupation you had a legal duty to report Jews hiding in your house. According to your logic, I'm guessing you would have ratted them out, cause that's what the law said?

ITT we learn that failing to follow the disclosure instructions on your law school applications is the equivalent of hiding Jews from the Nazis in your attic. So brave.

NYstate
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby NYstate » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:34 pm

jdmonkey wrote:
guano wrote:
jdmonkey wrote:What if you were arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay? Would this need to be disclosed? Or if you were arrested in Egypt for leaving Islam for Christianity? Some countries have laws that outlaw the type of diversity that law schools seek to foster. I think it would be morally inappropriate to disclose such "crimes."

If the question is "have you ever been arrested", then you must disclose. Do realize that just because you disclose an arrest, doesn't mean it'll be held against you. In the above examples it'll make no difference re being admitted to law school or to the bar, however, lying about your arrest record will have a significant impact. Failure to disclose is considered quite serious, for obvious reasons (if you do not think its obvious , maybe you should consider a different profession)


Thank you for your advice on my career goals. I'm not trying to debate black letter law, but simply the morality of it. What does being gay tell us about somebody's performance in law school or character to be an officer of the court. I would suggest nothing. So if it is irrelevant to your qualifications what is to stop law schools from asking if your are obese, HIV positive, a smoker, or any other question to screen out "undesirables." I think that somebody arrested for one of these offenses should sue a law school about the validity of the question, and open this debate to the courts. I don't think it is lawful for a school or employer to ask personal questions about topics that have no bearing on how somebody can perform in school or in a job.

If you lived in France during the German occupation you had a legal duty to report Jews hiding in your house. According to your logic, I'm guessing you would have ratted them out, cause that's what the law said?


A criminal record is very relevant to your ability to be licensed and to practice law. So yes, if you were arrested for concealing Jews during the holocaust you should disclose.

jdmonkey
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby jdmonkey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:36 pm

NYstate wrote:
jdmonkey wrote:
guano wrote:
jdmonkey wrote:What if you were arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay? Would this need to be disclosed? Or if you were arrested in Egypt for leaving Islam for Christianity? Some countries have laws that outlaw the type of diversity that law schools seek to foster. I think it would be morally inappropriate to disclose such "crimes."

If the question is "have you ever been arrested", then you must disclose. Do realize that just because you disclose an arrest, doesn't mean it'll be held against you. In the above examples it'll make no difference re being admitted to law school or to the bar, however, lying about your arrest record will have a significant impact. Failure to disclose is considered quite serious, for obvious reasons (if you do not think its obvious , maybe you should consider a different profession)


Thank you for your advice on my career goals. I'm not trying to debate black letter law, but simply the morality of it. What does being gay tell us about somebody's performance in law school or character to be an officer of the court. I would suggest nothing. So if it is irrelevant to your qualifications what is to stop law schools from asking if your are obese, HIV positive, a smoker, or any other question to screen out "undesirables." I think that somebody arrested for one of these offenses should sue a law school about the validity of the question, and open this debate to the courts. I don't think it is lawful for a school or employer to ask personal questions about topics that have no bearing on how somebody can perform in school or in a job.

If you lived in France during the German occupation you had a legal duty to report Jews hiding in your house. According to your logic, I'm guessing you would have ratted them out, cause that's what the law said?


A criminal record is very relevant to your ability to be licensed and to practice law. So yes, if you were arrested for concealing Jews during the holocaust you should disclose.


This is the credited response!

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rinkrat19
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby rinkrat19 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:37 pm

jdmonkey wrote:
NYstate wrote:
jdmonkey wrote:Thank you for your advice on my career goals. I'm not trying to debate black letter law, but simply the morality of it. What does being gay tell us about somebody's performance in law school or character to be an officer of the court. I would suggest nothing. So if it is irrelevant to your qualifications what is to stop law schools from asking if your are obese, HIV positive, a smoker, or any other question to screen out "undesirables." I think that somebody arrested for one of these offenses should sue a law school about the validity of the question, and open this debate to the courts. I don't think it is lawful for a school or employer to ask personal questions about topics that have no bearing on how somebody can perform in school or in a job.

If you lived in France during the German occupation you had a legal duty to report Jews hiding in your house. According to your logic, I'm guessing you would have ratted them out, cause that's what the law said?


A criminal record is very relevant to your ability to be licensed and to practice law. So yes, if you were arrested for concealing Jews during the holocaust you should disclose.


This is the credited response!

People have been telling you that all along.

jdmonkey
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby jdmonkey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:41 pm

I already finished my cycle and followed all the black letter rules. My point is that as presently construed the rules are farcical. I simply enjoy the buffoonery of the process.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby rinkrat19 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:44 pm

jdmonkey wrote:I already finished my cycle and followed all the black letter rules. My point is that as presently construed the rules are farcical. I simply enjoy the buffoonery of the process.

Nobody cares about your windmills, DQ.

jdmonkey
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby jdmonkey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:49 pm

.
Last edited by jdmonkey on Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WanderingPondering
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby WanderingPondering » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:53 pm

duallys21 wrote:There was a hearing in Hebrew (I don't speak or read Hebrew) and no charges were presented to me in English.

Again, because my charges were not presented in English, it is impossible to be certain.



Uhh, what? I'm sure there are records of your arrest. And just because you don't speak Hebrew doesn't mean it's impossible to be certain what the records say. Your ignorance of the local language is not a justifiable reason for not disclosing your arrest, and you can get it translated with really very little effort.

And why do you feel slighted that your charges were not presented to you in English? If you were from Brazil and arrested in Vietnam, I wouldn't think they would charge you in Portuguese.

And, by the way, almost every single person in Israel speaks English. It wouldn't have been to tough to ask someone what the hell is going on.

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TheThriller
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby TheThriller » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:51 pm

WanderingPondering wrote:
duallys21 wrote:There was a hearing in Hebrew (I don't speak or read Hebrew) and no charges were presented to me in English.

Again, because my charges were not presented in English, it is impossible to be certain.



Uhh, what? I'm sure there are records of your arrest. And just because you don't speak Hebrew doesn't mean it's impossible to be certain what the records say. Your ignorance of the local language is not a justifiable reason for not disclosing your arrest, and you can get it translated with really very little effort.

And why do you feel slighted that your charges were not presented to you in English? If you were from Brazil and arrested in Vietnam, I wouldn't think they would charge you in Portuguese.

And, by the way, almost every single person in Israel speaks English. It wouldn't have been to tough to ask someone what the hell is going on.



I was going to say pretty much all this earlier. If you could read the papers saying "Hey dude, don't go over to the Mosque", then you must have been able to read Hebrew.

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guano
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby guano » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:04 pm

jdmonkey wrote:
guano wrote:
jdmonkey wrote:What if you were arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay? Would this need to be disclosed? Or if you were arrested in Egypt for leaving Islam for Christianity? Some countries have laws that outlaw the type of diversity that law schools seek to foster. I think it would be morally inappropriate to disclose such "crimes."

If the question is "have you ever been arrested", then you must disclose. Do realize that just because you disclose an arrest, doesn't mean it'll be held against you. In the above examples it'll make no difference re being admitted to law school or to the bar, however, lying about your arrest record will have a significant impact. Failure to disclose is considered quite serious, for obvious reasons (if you do not think its obvious , maybe you should consider a different profession)


Thank you for your advice on my career goals. I'm not trying to debate black letter law, but simply the morality of it. What does being gay tell us about somebody's performance in law school or character to be an officer of the court. I would suggest nothing. So if it is irrelevant to your qualifications what is to stop law schools from asking if your are obese, HIV positive, a smoker, or any other question to screen out "undesirables." I think that somebody arrested for one of these offenses should sue a law school about the validity of the question, and open this debate to the courts. I don't think it is lawful for a school or employer to ask personal questions about topics that have no bearing on how somebody can perform in school or in a job.

If you lived in France during the German occupation you had a legal duty to report Jews hiding in your house. According to your logic, I'm guessing you would have ratted them out, cause that's what the law said?

Are you stupid, or did you not read my post?
If you can't see why failure to disclose would be a problem, you stand a good chance of eventually being disbarred, or worse. Honest dealings and adequate disclosure is a cornerstone of not only the legal profession, but also many other professional jobs.
You can do things that are completely immoral and barely legal, if you fully disclose, while non-disclosure can end up in jail time. (See, e.g. accounting, investment banking, tax, insurance, hell, even tech, medical, food industry)

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:18 pm

jdmonkey wrote:
guano wrote:
jdmonkey wrote:What if you were arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay? Would this need to be disclosed? Or if you were arrested in Egypt for leaving Islam for Christianity? Some countries have laws that outlaw the type of diversity that law schools seek to foster. I think it would be morally inappropriate to disclose such "crimes."

If the question is "have you ever been arrested", then you must disclose. Do realize that just because you disclose an arrest, doesn't mean it'll be held against you. In the above examples it'll make no difference re being admitted to law school or to the bar, however, lying about your arrest record will have a significant impact. Failure to disclose is considered quite serious, for obvious reasons (if you do not think its obvious , maybe you should consider a different profession)


Thank you for your advice on my career goals. I'm not trying to debate black letter law, but simply the morality of it. What does being gay tell us about somebody's performance in law school or character to be an officer of the court. I would suggest nothing. So if it is irrelevant to your qualifications what is to stop law schools from asking if your are obese, HIV positive, a smoker, or any other question to screen out "undesirables." I think that somebody arrested for one of these offenses should sue a law school about the validity of the question, and open this debate to the courts. I don't think it is lawful for a school or employer to ask personal questions about topics that have no bearing on how somebody can perform in school or in a job.

If you lived in France during the German occupation you had a legal duty to report Jews hiding in your house. According to your logic, I'm guessing you would have ratted them out, cause that's what the law said?

The question doesn't ask whether you're gay or Muslim or have HIV/obesity etc. It asks if you were arrested. Law schools ask this question because some of the answers are relevant to your c&f for the bar. Don't freak at law schools because some other country criminalizes things that shouldn't be criminalized - go challenge the stupid laws. Nothing about having to report an arrest presumes that LSs believe the arrest was moral and what you did was bad - it's only reporting a record of your interaction with machinery of the state.

As for your Godwin's allusion, no one is saying you should have reported Jews living in your house - only that if you were arrested for not following that law, and you then applied to law school, you would have to report that arrest. Law schools would probably give you a medal for it. If the law is really as unjust as you argue (and yes, I believe a law criminalizing being gay is unjust), I'd wear the arrest as a badge of pride. Hell, civil rights leaders in the 60s got arrested all the time.

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heythatslife
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Re: Disclose Arrest in Foreign Country?

Postby heythatslife » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:09 pm

If you believe that lawyers are a bad lot and the bar association is evil, then by all means resist, but don't say you didn't know this was going to happen when you get disbarred for failing to disclose information.




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