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jshaffer740
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Postby jshaffer740 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:28 pm

Thank you for all of the help. I have completed this - so in the interest of discretion I have removed the Addendum.
Last edited by jshaffer740 on Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:36 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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txdude45
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby txdude45 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:54 pm

I would general say that your explanation is too long, but I feel like a lot of that context is needed for you to not sound like a guy who will pull a knife at the drop of a hat. I think it's fine as written.

While you pulled the knife for intimidation purposes, I doubt adcoms will give you credit for it b/c you still pulled out a knife in the aftermath of a fight, putting yourself in very near proximity to a very major crime. Even though LS C&F is pretty much to weed out people who may not pass bar C&F, you should probably be prepared to underperform your numbers.

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Ded Precedent
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby Ded Precedent » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Looks fine, I would leave out the bit about you thinking the employee was intoxicated since you don't really know for sure and it kind of looks like you're trying to shift some blame to him like he was acting similarly irresponsible. I wouldn't do that.

jshaffer740
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby jshaffer740 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:01 pm

txdude45 wrote:I would general say that your explanation is too long, but I feel like a lot of that context is needed for you to not sound like a guy who will pull a knife at the drop of a hat. I think it's fine as written.

While you pulled the knife for intimidation purposes, I doubt adcoms will give you credit for it b/c you still pulled out a knife in the aftermath of a fight, putting yourself in very near proximity to a very major crime. Even though LS C&F is pretty much to weed out people who may not pass bar C&F, you should probably be prepared to underperform your numbers.


Thank you for the honest critique. As far as my numbers and your comment about underperformance, what are your thoughts on my chances at OSU Moritz, all things considered?

jshaffer740
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby jshaffer740 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:02 pm

Ded Precedent wrote:Looks fine, I would leave out the bit about you thinking the employee was intoxicated since you don't really know for sure and it kind of looks like you're trying to shift some blame to him like he was acting similarly irresponsible. I wouldn't do that.


Thank you. I agree with that, and was unsure as to whether or not to add it, hence the parenthesis. I will remove it.

NanaP
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby NanaP » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:05 pm

Do you have to put this much detail? Couldn't you just describe it as a fight and leave it at that?

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StillIll
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby StillIll » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:07 pm

txdude45 wrote:I would general say that your explanation is too long, but I feel like a lot of that context is needed for you to not sound like a guy who will pull a knife at the drop of a hat. I think it's fine as written.

While you pulled the knife for intimidation purposes, I doubt adcoms will give you credit for it b/c you still pulled out a knife in the aftermath of a fight, putting yourself in very near proximity to a very major crime. Even though LS C&F is pretty much to weed out people who may not pass bar C&F, you should probably be prepared to underperform your numbers.


As someone who had (has?) C&F items that had to be addressed (albeit minor ones), I am curious about the philosophy behind this weeding-out process. Let's say School A and School B are in the same legal market, but School A is ranked several spots higher (but B is no slouch). Graduates from each school will likely have to pass the exact same bar, yet School B is more likely to take a flier on the applicant, right? Is this because lower ranked schools are less concerned with making sure their graduates are employable?

In other words, shouldn't potentially bar-passage-precluding C&F issues rule you out at all and any schools?

I will say that I underperformed (at least initially) on my cycle and I suspect part of it may have to do with C&F (marijuana arrests; no convictions). I will also admit that I have currently surpressed but lingering worries about getting a hard time from the bar C&F... I have read horror stories and intend to speak to my school about it not too long after I arrive for 1L and get settled.
Last edited by StillIll on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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txdude45
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby txdude45 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:10 pm

jshaffer740 wrote:Thank you for the honest critique. As far as my numbers and your comment about underperformance, what are your thoughts on my chances at OSU Moritz, all things considered?


You may underperform, but you won't fall anywhere near that far. I was only talking about you perhaps missing out on a T14 school, or two, you may have otherwise gotten. You'll get T14 offers though. If you're from Ohio, or want to work their, Chicago and Northwestern should still be your targets. Don't go to Ohio unless they give you a cruise ship of money and you're okay with 60% chance of JD required employment (you shouldn't be okay with this).

--ImageRemoved--

StillIll wrote:As someone who had (has?) C&F items that had to be addressed (albeit minor ones), I am curious about the philosophy behind this weeding-out process. Let's say School A and School B are in the same legal market, but School A is ranked several spots higher (but B is no slouch). Graduates from each school will likely have to pass the exact same bar, yet School B is more likely to take a flier on the applicant, right? Is this because lower ranked schools are less concerned with making sure their graduates are employable?

In other words, shouldn't potentially bar-passage-precluding C&F issues rule you out at all and any schools?


I'm no where close to a C&F expert. The extent of my knowledge is compiled from anecdotal evidence from a few posters. Someone else could provide much better answer to this than I.

However, my assumption would be that higher ranked schools simply don't have to take a chance on you b/c there is an equally qualified applicant somewhere in the pool w/o the same C&F issues. Lower ranked schools can't be so picky.

Ti Malice
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby Ti Malice » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:23 pm

NanaP wrote:Do you have to put this much detail? Couldn't you just describe it as a fight and leave it at that?


Definitely not. Menacing means brandishing. It's not adequate disclosure to just say you were in a fight when you were charged with displaying a weapon. This sort of offense calls for greater context and explanation.

jshaffer740
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby jshaffer740 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:27 pm

NanaP wrote:Do you have to put this much detail? Couldn't you just describe it as a fight and leave it at that?


I could, I am just worried that something like "was involved in a fight, pulled out a knife" might sound much worse without all of the circumstances surrounding the reasoning. If I'm being truly honest to the situation, I really was fearful for my safety, as I am a smaller guy (5'6", 145lb.) and the employee involved was over 6', and over 200lbs. I honestly felt it was the only answer to the situation. Obviously I left that out from the Addendum, for fear of sounding too defensive, but I wanted to convey that there were things leading up to it that placed me in the situation.

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txdude45
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby txdude45 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:32 pm

jshaffer740 wrote:
NanaP wrote:Do you have to put this much detail? Couldn't you just describe it as a fight and leave it at that?


I could, I am just worried that something like "was involved in a fight, pulled out a knife" might sound much worse without all of the circumstances surrounding the reasoning. If I'm being truly honest to the situation, I really was fearful for my safety, as I am a smaller guy (5'6", 145lb.) and the employee involved was over 6', and over 200lbs. I honestly felt it was the only answer to the situation. Obviously I left that out from the Addendum, for fear of sounding too defensive, but I wanted to convey that there were things leading up to it that placed me in the situation.


Don't put that in anything you send to anyone who is judging you. If you tell someone that pulling a knife was your only answer, they're going to want to see life threatening circumstances more severe than a restaurant skirmish. Short of that, you sound... really bad.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:33 pm

OP: Did you actually order food prior to grabbing the wrong order? For me as a reader, this entirely shifts the story. I agree with previous posters about the intoxication - drop that. I also don't know if we need details on your friend fighting him. Him punching you, you leaving and being punched again then pulling the knife outside is outside.

If I were an adcom, whether or not you ordered food would change the whole series of blame in this sequence.

jshaffer740
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby jshaffer740 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:51 pm

bananapeanutbutter wrote:OP: Did you actually order food prior to grabbing the wrong order? For me as a reader, this entirely shifts the story. I agree with previous posters about the intoxication - drop that. I also don't know if we need details on your friend fighting him. Him punching you, you leaving and being punched again then pulling the knife outside is outside.

If I were an adcom, whether or not you ordered food would change the whole series of blame in this sequence.


I did order the food. I have edited the beginning to the following:

In the early morning of Jan, XX, 2012, in , I was waiting in line for food I had ordered from a crowded local restaurant after an evening out at bars with friends. I picked up my food from the counter, but an employee believed this item did not belong to me.


Please let me know if this helps clarify.

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CyanIdes Of March
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby CyanIdes Of March » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:04 pm

Out of curiosity, what did you say to this guy to make him punch you in the first place? Seems like there's a bit missing in the middle or that was the most random reaction to a food mix-up I've ever heard of.

jshaffer740
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby jshaffer740 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:05 pm

Based on above comments, and some received in PM, I have updated this Addendum. Please offer your comments on the current format:

Criminal Addendum
In the early morning of January, XX, 2012, in XX, XX, I was waiting in line for food I had ordered from a crowded local restaurant after an evening out at bars with friends. I picked up my food from the counter, but an employee believed this item did not belong to me. I expressed the belief it was mine. As I turned to leave, the employee came towards me and punched the left side of my face. After falling to the ground and receiving another hit to the face, I exited the restaurant. Outside, believing I was still pursued, I removed a small pocket knife I had with me, hoping this would intimidate my pursuer enough to end the fight. I then put the knife away. The local police had been called when the fight started, and had since arrived. As a result of displaying the pocket knife, I was charged with two counts of aggravated menacing (misdemeanor) and one count of disorderly conduct (minor misdemeanor). In accordance with a plea deal, I plead guilty to one charge of aggravated menacing, in exchange for the dismissal of all other charges. I was given a fine of $250, with all other sentences suspended for one year subject to continued lawful behavior.

University Probation Addendum
University X was also notified of this event. After discussing the event with me and reviewing it, The Office of Community Standards put me in probationary period, directed me to complete 10 hours of community service, and to attend two counseling sessions so as to learn from the event.

Reflection
I take full responsibility for all of the actions indicated above. The above event is not indicative of my overall character, as evidenced by my lack of any prior and subsequent criminal history. Additionally, the conviction was expunged from my record in July 2013, due to my lack of prior history and subsequent lawful behavior. I have since successfully obtained my CPA license in the State of XX, and obtained full-time employment with Big 4 Accounting Firm XX, both of which require a background investigation

I have also learned and grown from this event. Through counseling I learned more about myself, and how to responsibly have fun with friends, without going overboard. As a result of my community service I was able to prepare and serve food to impoverished members of the community, which enlightened me to many of the needs of this underserved population. While it is certainly an occurrence I regret, I believe I was able to make the most of it and improve myself as a result.

jshaffer740
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby jshaffer740 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:08 pm

CyanIdes Of March wrote:Out of curiosity, what did you say to this guy to make him punch you in the first place? Seems like there's a bit missing in the middle or that was the most random reaction to a food mix-up I've ever heard of.


This was in a small, very crowded burrito restaurant, full of drunk college kids yelling at him about how slow the food was taking, and getting very agitated about the noise. He was also very intoxicated, as this "establishment" is known for allowing its employees to drink on the job. Suffice to say, I was probably the straw the broke the camel's back, and set him over the edge. Unfortunately I do not believe I can incorporate any of this without sounding defensive or like I'm making excuses.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:12 pm

I might be in the minority, but I would forget about intoxication or your friends or allocating blame, and just present it like this:

1.) Kid orders food with credit card/receipt/some verifiable record.
2.) Kid makes an honest mistake and takes the wrong order.
3.) Kid is assaulted.
4.) Kid tries to run away, unsure what's happening.
5.) Kid thinks he's being followed still, scared shitless and draws knife.

This reads very differently (as in I can't believe you plead guilty) from -

1.) Kid steals food.
2.) Kid is caught, and tries to run away.
3.) Employee tries to regain stolen property, albeit a bit too aggressively.
4.) Kid - now thief draws knife.

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StillIll
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby StillIll » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:26 pm

I don't think he is including stuff about blame or intoxication

norkanite
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby norkanite » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:30 pm

I'd cut down on the reflection. Simply presenting the facts, then succinctly informing them it's the only thing on your record should make it seem smaller.

Edit: as Malice pointed out, this is probably not the right advice in your case - good luck.
Last edited by norkanite on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

jshaffer740
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby jshaffer740 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:31 pm

bananapeanutbutter wrote:I might be in the minority, but I would forget about intoxication or your friends or allocating blame, and just present it like this:

1.) Kid orders food with credit card/receipt/some verifiable record.
2.) Kid makes an honest mistake and takes the wrong order.
3.) Kid is assaulted.
4.) Kid tries to run away, unsure what's happening.
5.) Kid thinks he's being followed still, scared shitless and draws knife.

This reads very differently (as in I can't believe you plead guilty) from -

1.) Kid steals food.
2.) Kid is caught, and tries to run away.
3.) Employee tries to regain stolen property, albeit a bit too aggressively.
4.) Kid - now thief draws knife.


Unfortunately I believe the actual sequence of events is somewhere in the middle, although closer to scenario one. The difference being that I was in fact quite intoxicated, paid in cash, and it is in the realm of possibility I did have the wrong food, as they were burritos, and therefore wrapped in foil, so you couldn't see what it was at first glance. This is part of why in the end I was advised to plead guilty to one count, because the lead up to the first punch could not be 100% verified. However points 4 and 5 in your scenario are indeed accurate. I would feel if I wasn't honest to the true color of the events, it may not be entirely accurate and could come back to haunt me.

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Ded Precedent
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby Ded Precedent » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:34 pm

Did you even end up getting to eat the burrito?

jshaffer740
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby jshaffer740 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:36 pm

Ded Precedent wrote:Did you even end up getting to eat the burrito?


Nope. I left with a bloodied up face, gashes to my arm from falling, but no burrito. I have no idea what became of it.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:00 pm

jshaffer740 wrote:
Ded Precedent wrote:Did you even end up getting to eat the burrito?


Nope. I left with a bloodied up face, gashes to my arm from falling, but no burrito. I have no idea what became of it.

Did you get a broken nose or anything? I don't understand why they charged you..... or why you didn't sue the place. I also don't understand how the employee randomly hit you over a bag of food that cost them maybe 5 dollars to make. Violence seems like an extreme response.

Ti Malice
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby Ti Malice » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:04 pm

norkanite wrote:As far as the addendum itself - I'd cut down on the reflection. Simply presenting the facts, then succinctly informing them it's the only thing on your record should make it seem smaller.


That's advisable sometimes, but that's not really the approach to take when you've been charged with pulling a weapon on someone. See Asha on C&F "drive-bys": http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... -post.aspx.

jshaffer740
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Re: Criminal Addendum - Please Critique

Postby jshaffer740 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:08 pm

bananapeanutbutter wrote:
jshaffer740 wrote:
Ded Precedent wrote:Did you even end up getting to eat the burrito?


Nope. I left with a bloodied up face, gashes to my arm from falling, but no burrito. I have no idea what became of it.

Did you get a broken nose or anything? I don't understand why they charged you..... or why you didn't sue the place. I also don't understand how the employee randomly hit you over a bag of food that cost them maybe 5 dollars to make. Violence seems like an extreme response.


It was very extreme - but no broken nose. Also, as mentioned previously he was very intoxicated and already agitated by the crowd.

There were photos of my bloodied face, but we couldn't prove that a punch didn't take place *after* I took out the knife outside, as unfortunately there was no record of the events inside (no video footage), so it was my word vs. his. The only thing the police saw was a random kid (me) outside with a pocket knife out in a group of people that were likely not involved in the initial fight. So that's what they put in the police report. They never interviewed anyone from inside, where it started (those people likely left as soon as the fight broke out), and so none of that made it into the arrest record.

In retrospect I probably could have taken it to a trial, and had a good chance at prevailing. But at the time my father was sick with terminal cancer, and in my college-aged mind the thing I wanted most was for it to simply be over and not prolong it.




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