2.4 / 161 Advice..

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raferna3
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2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby raferna3 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:15 am

I have a 2.4 gpa, which is obviously low, but this was due to my making terrible grades at the beginning of my college career. I have a 3.7+ gpa over the past 3 years(roughly 60 hours of coursework), will this be enough to sway admission committees? LSAT is a 161.

Unfortunately, gpa is not my only issue. I have been arrested for minor misdemeanors that were drinking related, nothing major, and have no convictions and all happened well over 3 years ago. I was just going out and having fun like any other college kid and had terrible luck with the law and being at the wrong place and wrong time. I'm certainly no criminal or man of poor moral character.

Conversely, I have wonderful softs. I founded what would go on to become the largest fraternity on campus by the end of my tenure as president. I then briefly interned for City Hall, and then went on to found my own company, which has done millions of dollars in business and which I plan to sell to pay for law school.

I feel like my application is the ultimate mind-job. Terrible gpa to great gpa. Arrests but incredible accomplishments for someone my age. How in the heck are these guys going to deal with me?!
Last edited by raferna3 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby ScottRiqui » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:20 am

raferna3 wrote: How in the heck are these guys going to deal with me?!


What schools are you interested in? With a 2.4/161, I suspect the answer to your question might just be "auto-ding".

JJ123
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby JJ123 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:22 am

Law school doesn't sound right for you. You already have a successful (I'm assuming, with millions in sales) company. That is your route to success in life. To have any chance, you'll need much better LSAT, and there's a good chance you may not be allowed to even take the bar.

If you're dead set on grad school, why not do an MBA, which would look much more favorably on your entrepreneurship, and doesn't care nearly as much about grades?

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you'rethemannowdawg
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby you'rethemannowdawg » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:24 am

raferna3 wrote:I have a 2.4 gpa, which is obviously low, but this was due to my making terrible grades at the beginning of my college career. I have a 3.7+ gpa over the past 3 years(roughly 60 hours of coursework), will this be enough to sway admission committees? LSAT is a 161.

Unfortunately, gpa is not my only issue. I have been arrested 3 times for fake id, public intox, and mischief. but have no convictions and all happened well over 3 years ago. I was just going out and having fun like any other college kid and had terrible luck with the law and being at the wrong place and wrong time. I'm certainly no criminal or man of poor moral character.

Conversely, I have wonderful softs. I founded what would go on to become the largest fraternity on campus(60+ members) by the end of my 2-year tenure as president. I then briefly interned for City Hall, and then went on to found my own company, which has done millions of dollars in business and which I plan to sell to pay for law school.

I feel like my application is the ultimate mind-job. Terrible gpa to great gpa. Arrests but incredible accomplishments for someone my age. How in the heck are these guys going to deal with me?!


If this isn't flame, why on earth do you want to go to law school? A 2.4/161 is not going to get you in anywhere that will give you better outcomes than being the owner of a successful business.

Otherwise, it sounds like you can afford wherever you go, so just go to a school that's near where you want to live.

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raferna3
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby raferna3 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:30 am

ScottRiqui wrote:
raferna3 wrote: How in the heck are these guys going to deal with me?!


What schools are you interested in? With a 2.4/161, I suspect the answer to your question might just be "auto-ding".



I have a list of about 40 schools I would be willing to go to outside the T14 and within the top 100.

As for the successful business owner stuff. Yes, I am aware of the current legal job-market, but I am confident I would finish near the top of my class wherever I go so I dont think employment would be an issue. I also have a vast network of people I know in HR positions.

Frankly, and more importantly, I love the law and there is nothing I want to do outside of being a lawyer.4

Not sure how much of a difference it really makes, but I am also a URM.

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raferna3
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby raferna3 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:33 am

JJ123 wrote:Law school doesn't sound right for you. You already have a successful (I'm assuming, with millions in sales) company. That is your route to success in life. To have any chance, you'll need much better LSAT, and there's a good chance you may not be allowed to even take the bar.

If you're dead set on grad school, why not do an MBA, which would look much more favorably on your entrepreneurship, and doesn't care nearly as much about grades?



All the lawyers I have spoken to regarding the bar seem to think it wont be an issue at all. As they have put it, "there are LOTS of lawyers out there with far longer and more severe rap-sheets than a few college drinking arrests with no convictions." I am no expert on the subject but they seemed to be quite dismissive of the possibility that these incidents would hold me back. Especially considering the amount of time which has elapsed.
Last edited by raferna3 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

buddingjd
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby buddingjd » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:34 am

raferna3 wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote:
raferna3 wrote: How in the heck are these guys going to deal with me?!


What schools are you interested in? With a 2.4/161, I suspect the answer to your question might just be "auto-ding".



I have a list of about 40 schools I would be willing to go to outside the T14 and within the top 100.

As for the successful business owner stuff. Yes, I am aware of the current legal job-market, but I am confident I would finish near the top of my class wherever I go so I dont think employment would be an issue. I also have a vast network of people I know in HR positions.

Frankly, and more importantly, I love the law and there is nothing I want to do outside of being a lawyer.4

Not sure how much of a difference it really makes, but I am also a URM.


This is affectionately referred to as "special snowflake syndrome." Nobody goes to law school thinking they won't be near the top of the class. The best you can realistically project is being at median. Plan accordingly. The median outcome from any school that would take a 2.4/161 is awful. Please don't squander what you've built by going to law school.

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raferna3
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby raferna3 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:37 am

buddingjd wrote:
raferna3 wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote:
raferna3 wrote: How in the heck are these guys going to deal with me?!


What schools are you interested in? With a 2.4/161, I suspect the answer to your question might just be "auto-ding".



I have a list of about 40 schools I would be willing to go to outside the T14 and within the top 100.

As for the successful business owner stuff. Yes, I am aware of the current legal job-market, but I am confident I would finish near the top of my class wherever I go so I dont think employment would be an issue. I also have a vast network of people I know in HR positions.

Frankly, and more importantly, I love the law and there is nothing I want to do outside of being a lawyer.4

Not sure how much of a difference it really makes, but I am also a URM.


This is affectionately referred to as "special snowflake syndrome." Nobody goes to law school thinking they won't be near the top of the class. The best you can realistically project is being at median. Plan accordingly. The median outcome from any school that would take a 2.4/161 is awful. Please don't squander what you've built by going to law school.



I was PTing in the high 160s / low 170s. I had dual games and did great on one, terrible on the other. Terrible one turned out not to be the experimental. Missed 13 of 23. Clearly, my LSAT would have been MUCH higher if I hadnt screwed up. Only studied for 2 weeks prior to testing and clearly didnt get the games down well enough. Probably going to re-take in October with more practice.

As for "special snowflake syndrome," I understand it's likely impossible for me to convince you otherwise, but if you knew me you'd know I am indeed a "special snowflake." My resume(and recent gpa) can attest to the fact that when I set my mind to something, I get it done.

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you'rethemannowdawg
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby you'rethemannowdawg » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:39 am

raferna3 wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote:
raferna3 wrote: How in the heck are these guys going to deal with me?!


What schools are you interested in? With a 2.4/161, I suspect the answer to your question might just be "auto-ding".



I have a list of about 40 schools I would be willing to go to outside the T14 and within the top 100.

As for the successful business owner stuff. Yes, I am aware of the current legal job-market, but I am confident I would finish near the top of my class wherever I go so I dont think employment would be an issue. I also have a vast network of people I know in HR positions.

Frankly, and more importantly, I love the law and there is nothing I want to do outside of being a lawyer.4

Not sure how much of a difference it really makes, but I am also a URM.


Go here http://www.mylsn.info/qlqqgf

Doesn't look good for your numbers. If you can crack 168 maybe you'll have some ok options.

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raferna3
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby raferna3 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:44 am

you'rethemannowdawg wrote:
raferna3 wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote:
raferna3 wrote: How in the heck are these guys going to deal with me?!


What schools are you interested in? With a 2.4/161, I suspect the answer to your question might just be "auto-ding".



I have a list of about 40 schools I would be willing to go to outside the T14 and within the top 100.

As for the successful business owner stuff. Yes, I am aware of the current legal job-market, but I am confident I would finish near the top of my class wherever I go so I dont think employment would be an issue. I also have a vast network of people I know in HR positions.

Frankly, and more importantly, I love the law and there is nothing I want to do outside of being a lawyer.4

Not sure how much of a difference it really makes, but I am also a URM.


Go here http://www.mylsn.info/qlqqgf

Doesn't look good for your numbers. If you can crack 168 maybe you'll have some ok options.



I am almost certainly going to re-take the LSAT and hopefully be at or over that mark. My strategy was to apply as soon as the cycle opens up(around Sept. 1 for many) and get their decisions back in time to know whether I need to take the December LSAT or not, and then asking for re-consideration. Is that a good idea or should I take the October LSAT and apply in November? I really wanted to try and get a jump on everyone else as I hear that applying early in the cycle is best.

Also, I dont know how accurate some of those law school predictors are since I have a 3.75 over my last 60 hours. Haven't gotten anything less than a B in 4 years. Would law schools still strictly look at my overall GPA in my scenario? I feel that is a bit short-sighted, but I suppose I am biased, after all...

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you'rethemannowdawg
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby you'rethemannowdawg » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:52 am

raferna3 wrote:I am almost certainly going to re-take the LSAT and hopefully be at or over that mark. My strategy was to apply as soon as the cycle opens up(around Sept. 1 for many) and get their decisions back in time to know whether I need to take the December LSAT or not, and then asking for re-consideration. Is that a good idea or should I take the October LSAT and apply in November? I really wanted to try and get a jump on everyone else as I hear that applying early in the cycle is best.

Also, I dont know how accurate some of those law school predictors are since I have a 3.75 over my last 60 hours. Haven't gotten anything less than a B in 4 years. Would law schools still strictly look at my overall GPA in my scenario? I feel that is a bit short-sighted, but I suppose I am biased, after all...


Schools need the overall GPA for their medians. Not the best system, but that's how it works. If they hit their targets they might consider you based on your softs, but your outcomes will not be substantially different from the ones on that chart.

In other words, you might have an advantage over another 2.4/161 applicant based on your experience and upward trend, but the school will admit 2.4/162s and 2.5/161s before they will consider admitting you. Retake and see what happens.

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raferna3
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby raferna3 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:54 am

you'rethemannowdawg wrote:
raferna3 wrote:I am almost certainly going to re-take the LSAT and hopefully be at or over that mark. My strategy was to apply as soon as the cycle opens up(around Sept. 1 for many) and get their decisions back in time to know whether I need to take the December LSAT or not, and then asking for re-consideration. Is that a good idea or should I take the October LSAT and apply in November? I really wanted to try and get a jump on everyone else as I hear that applying early in the cycle is best.

Also, I dont know how accurate some of those law school predictors are since I have a 3.75 over my last 60 hours. Haven't gotten anything less than a B in 4 years. Would law schools still strictly look at my overall GPA in my scenario? I feel that is a bit short-sighted, but I suppose I am biased, after all...


Schools need the overall GPA for their medians. Not the best system, but that's how it works. If they hit their targets they might consider you based on your softs, but your outcomes will not be substantially different from the ones on that chart.

In other words, you might have an advantage over another 2.4/161 applicant based on your experience and upward trend, but the school will admit 2.4/162s and 2.5/161s before they will consider admitting you. Retake and see what happens.



Okay, that's good advice. Thanks for taking the time to offer a hand!

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Nova
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby Nova » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:01 pm

Generally,

You have no chance at schools where you are below the LSAT median.

You have some shot at schools you are at or just above the LSAT median.

You have a decent shot at schools with LSAT medians of around 155 and below.

Your best bet would be to get as many fee waivers as possible and blanket every school that feeds into markets you wouldnt mind practicing in long term.

You should retake no matter what. What ever offers you get could be better with a retake. Do not settle.

raferna3 wrote:As for "special snowflake syndrome," I understand it's likely impossible for me to convince you otherwise, but if you knew me you'd know I am indeed a "special snowflake."

*facepalm*

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raferna3
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby raferna3 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:07 pm

Nova wrote:Generally,

You have no chance at schools where you are below the LSAT median.

You have an some shot at schools you are at or just above the LSAT median.

You have a decent shot at schools with LSAT medians of around 155 and below.

Your best bet would be to get as many fee waivers as possible and blanket every school that feeds into markets you wouldnt mind practicing in long term.

You should retake no matter what. What ever offers you get could be better with a retake. Do not settle.

raferna3 wrote:As for "special snowflake syndrome," I understand it's likely impossible for me to convince you otherwise, but if you knew me you'd know I am indeed a "special snowflake."

*facepalm*


I am a special snowflake! Just ask my mother! :wink:

In all seriousness though, yeah, I agree with you. No harm in retaking aside from the huge pain in the butt it is. I am just grappling over whether to miss on applying early in the cycle to do so...

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Nova
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby Nova » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:09 pm

JJ123 wrote:there's a good chance you may not be allowed to even take the bar.

this isnt true

NO CONVICTIONS (idk how you swung that, lol, but good job)

even if you had convictions, those are really minor crimes.

ETA: this isnt legal advice.
Last edited by Nova on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nova
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby Nova » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:11 pm

raferna3 wrote:In all seriousness though, yeah, I agree with you. No harm in retaking aside from the huge pain in the butt it is. I am just grappling over whether to miss on applying early in the cycle to do so...

Apply early and then register for the LSAT.


The LSAT is more important than applying early.

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raferna3
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby raferna3 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:21 pm

Nova wrote:
raferna3 wrote:In all seriousness though, yeah, I agree with you. No harm in retaking aside from the huge pain in the butt it is. I am just grappling over whether to miss on applying early in the cycle to do so...

Apply early and then register for the LSAT.


The LSAT is more important than applying early.



Yeah, that's a good point. Doing both would probably be for the best. I know I can do better than a 161... and I would have too if it hadn't been for those meddling kids! :)

JJ123
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby JJ123 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:57 pm

You have to retake. But seriously, why are you doing this to yourself? You already have a successful busines.

PRgradBYU
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby PRgradBYU » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:02 pm

raferna3 wrote:
Nova wrote:
raferna3 wrote:In all seriousness though, yeah, I agree with you. No harm in retaking aside from the huge pain in the butt it is. I am just grappling over whether to miss on applying early in the cycle to do so...

Apply early and then register for the LSAT.


The LSAT is more important than applying early.



Yeah, that's a good point. Doing both would probably be for the best. I know I can do better than a 161... and I would have too if it hadn't been for those meddling kids! :)


You're probably going to have to break the 170s (or at the very least, hit 168 or 169) for law school to make sense for you. Retake or don't go.

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raferna3
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby raferna3 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:06 pm

JJ123 wrote:You have to retake. But seriously, why are you doing this to yourself? You already have a successful busines.



I mentioned it in one of my posts above, but I simply love the law. Never wanted to do anything aside from be an attorney. It isn't all about the dollars and cents for me, it is about having a job that I am excited to wake up for every morning.

Besides, worst case scenario, it isn't as if I will forget how to start and run a company by going to law school. I could always return to business if needed, and being an attorney would serve as quite an advantage in that capacity as well.

TLSCLB
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby TLSCLB » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:39 pm

Like a lot of people have said, best shot is to retake and aim for 165+, and yes, it is certainly worth applying late in the cycle; having talked to several law school admission offices, applying early doesn't offer you nearly as much benefit as it does in say the med school application process or other similar processes. Even with that GPA, being a splitter (high LSAT/low GPA) still gives you a decent shot of going where you want.

Good luck!

Lumieres
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby Lumieres » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:41 pm

What's your business website?

BigZuck
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:31 am

What do you mean when you say that you "love the law?" Be specific.

And why are you so confident that you will be at the top of your law school class? Your overall gpa is not good, and even when you decided to put some effort into it it's not anywhere close to perfect. As far as the LSAT goes your score is pretty mediocre and it sounds like you couldn't be bothered to put in the requisite effort. Not to mention you had one major thing screw you up and that could also happen on a law school exam. One C on a final could drop you out of the running from finishing near the top of the class, and you will end up taking plenty of exams.

I'm not trying to crap on you or bring you down, I'm genuinely interested in why you think law school will be any different than the entirety of your academic background to this point.

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zozin
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby zozin » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:40 am

raferna3 wrote:then went on to found my own company, which has done millions of dollars in business and which I plan to sell to pay for law school.


I have been arrested for minor misdemeanors that were drinking related, nothing major, and have no convictions and all happened well over 3 years ago.

I simply love the law. Never wanted to do anything aside from be an attorney. It isn't all about the dollars and cents for me, it is about having a job that I am excited to wake up for every morning.


Besides, worst case scenario, it isn't as if I will forget how to start and run a company by going to law school.


Image

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raferna3
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Re: 2.4 / 161 Advice..

Postby raferna3 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:42 pm

Lumieres wrote:What's your business website?


I can't put that out there, I've likely said too much as is. But if you're questioning whether or not I am telling the truth, it'd be a bit of a waste of time for me to come here asking for advice based on nonsense.




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