Yale PhD in Law

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Alexandria
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby Alexandria » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:20 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Alexandria wrote:I will be surprised if there is attrition. We are simply people who know what we're getting into. It's not like we are people with only BAs who then go into a PhD program in a related or unrelated area without any experience in graduate/professional school.

Yeah, sorry, I was really going off on a tangent. I didn't mean to suggest there was any reason to expect attrition at your program in particular. (Presuming everyone has enough of a background in research to get through a dissertation process. But I come from a background where completing a dissertation in 2 years was REALLY uncommon, so I'm a little pessimistic.)


Our dissertation is either a book or three law review articles. I think most people will go the three law review article route, especially because that will fit better with legal academia and how the market works, with us going on the market the fall of our 3rd year and wanting to have something recent already published, plus at least one other nearly finished piece to use as a job talk paper. You're absolutely right that we'll have to work our asses hard to get it done in that timeframe.

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quakeroats
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby quakeroats » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:14 pm

Alexandria wrote:We are simply people who know what we're getting into.


It's very difficult to transition back into the private sector after a VAP doesn't lead to a tenure-track position. I suspect it'll be much more so here. If you can't transition back, you might end up on the legal writing faculty (assuming even those jobs are open then). You're taking a big risk without even the minimal safety net you'd otherwise have in a traditional program. I hope things work out for you, but this isn't the kind of market that rewards untested degrees.

Alexandria
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby Alexandria » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:20 pm

quakeroats wrote:
Alexandria wrote:We are simply people who know what we're getting into.


It's very difficult to transition back into the private sector after a VAP doesn't lead to a tenure-track position. I suspect it'll be much more so here. If you can't transition back, you might end up on the legal writing faculty (assuming even those jobs are open then). You're taking a big risk without even the minimal safety net you'd otherwise have in a traditional program. I hope things work out for you, but this isn't the kind of market that rewards untested degrees.


Yes, you've made your opinion very clear. I don't share it. Nor do those I looked to for advice in making my decision.

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quakeroats
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby quakeroats » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:30 pm

Alexandria wrote:I don't share it. Nor do those I looked to for advice in making my decision.


Most of the academy shares my view. If you not getting advice from any of them, maybe that should tell you something.

Alexandria
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby Alexandria » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:53 pm

quakeroats wrote:
Alexandria wrote:I don't share it. Nor do those I looked to for advice in making my decision.


Most of the academy shares my view. If you not getting advice from any of them, maybe that should tell you something.


What in the world makes you think I'm not getting advice from people in the academy? I'm also not sure it's true that most of the academy shares your view. You have a very loud Brian Leiter, and a few more moderate skeptics. You also have people who thinks it is a good idea or at least an interesting idea with some potential. And then you have a ton of people who either haven't heard of it or are reserving judgment until they see how it plays out.

Frankly, your apparent assumption that you have spent more time researching this, thinking about this, and talking one on one with law faculty about this than has someone who is actually entering the program is ridiculous. I'm not saying no one can reach a different conclusion than I have. But there is certainly room for reasonable people to disagree on this subject.

I think there are two issues here. First, whether it is a good idea to shoot for academia at all. Personally, I think that is the idea that is much shakier, but it's my dream and I'm going for it regardless. Second is whether this program will help a person get there, particularly when compared with VAPs and fellowships. For various reasons, largely having to do with faculty support at Yale and the rather inconsistent faculty support of even the best fellowship programs, every law professor I spoke to unanimously thought this program was the way to go.

It's one thing to say that law schools shouldn't establish PhD programs. It's another thing to say that a person presented with the opportunity to be a member of the inaugural class of Yale's PhD program shouldn't take advantage of it.

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thatdude222
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby thatdude222 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:13 pm

quakeroats wrote:
Alexandria wrote:I don't share it. Nor do those I looked to for advice in making my decision.


Most of the academy shares my view. If you not getting advice from any of them, maybe that should tell you something.



Frankly, now you just sound like a douche and a hater, lol. We all know what your view is. She doesn't share yours. The end.

On another note, it will be interesting to hear from someone on TLS in the future actually enrolled in the program.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:29 pm

quakeroats' view is just pure exaggeration

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jbagelboy
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:00 pm

Alexandria wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
Alexandria wrote:I don't share it. Nor do those I looked to for advice in making my decision.


Most of the academy shares my view. If you not getting advice from any of them, maybe that should tell you something.


What in the world makes you think I'm not getting advice from people in the academy? I'm also not sure it's true that most of the academy shares your view. You have a very loud Brian Leiter, and a few more moderate skeptics. You also have people who thinks it is a good idea or at least an interesting idea with some potential. And then you have a ton of people who either haven't heard of it or are reserving judgment until they see how it plays out.

Frankly, your apparent assumption that you have spent more time researching this, thinking about this, and talking one on one with law faculty about this than has someone who is actually entering the program is ridiculous. I'm not saying no one can reach a different conclusion than I have. But there is certainly room for reasonable people to disagree on this subject.

I think there are two issues here. First, whether it is a good idea to shoot for academia at all. Personally, I think that is the idea that is much shakier, but it's my dream and I'm going for it regardless. Second is whether this program will help a person get there, particularly when compared with VAPs and fellowships. For various reasons, largely having to do with faculty support at Yale and the rather inconsistent faculty support of even the best fellowship programs, every law professor I spoke to unanimously thought this program was the way to go.

It's one thing to say that law schools shouldn't establish PhD programs. It's another thing to say that a person presented with the opportunity to be a member of the inaugural class of Yale's PhD program shouldn't take advantage of it.



The negative feedback aside, I do hope you share more about the program next year with those on TLS like myself who are eager to know more. I can't speak to how it will play out for you, but you've made your choice and its a dick move to try and second guess it now (although I'll acknowledge we do that on TLS all the time for TTT's). Especially when all you were trying to do was volunteer information on another OP, not present your own scenario for questioning. After all, a program with all Michigan & Harvard JD's can't be that fucked. good luck and keep us posted!

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Ling520
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby Ling520 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:09 pm

If you truly enjoy legal scholarship, this is a sweet deal. Studying and researching at a school with Yale's resources, and getting paid, even modestly, for it (and getting a Phd) can be valuable in itself. Leitter suggests that a Phd program in law is a bit nonsensical because the subject does not lend itself to dissertation quality scholarship in abstract. This is a strange claim because there is a long history of doctoral level scholarship in law in England and the rest of Europe (e.g., D.Phil in Law, LLD, Phd in Laws, etc.,).

The real source of resistance from Law professors, and this is a legitimate problem, stems from how this Phd in Law, if the trend propagates, will influence perception of the JD. There's a strong possibility that it will degrade the quality of a stand alone JD--a terminal degree, according to the ABA--for academics. Already YLS structured the program in a way that makes the JD appear less valuable than even an Masters. Most or many Phd programs in the US confer an MA (or skip it altogether) after the second year en-route to the Phd, and at the completion of the required course work. After follows work towards the dissertation directly, and depending on the pace of the research, the entire Phd will be completed after an additional 2 to 4 years. Whereas, YLS says most students will spend the first year doing course work. This means that after already completing a 3 year JD, you will do an additional year of graduate study, 4 years altogether, before working on your dissertation directly.

The second problem for Law professors is that this degree is a Frankenstein-like mashing of a professional doctorate with a Phd, which may not be taken seriously by Phds in other disciplines. No one wants to get teased at the ivory playground.

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quakeroats
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby quakeroats » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:01 pm

Alexandria wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
Alexandria wrote:I don't share it. Nor do those I looked to for advice in making my decision.


Most of the academy shares my view. If you not getting advice from any of them, maybe that should tell you something.


What in the world makes you think I'm not getting advice from people in the academy? I'm also not sure it's true that most of the academy shares your view. You have a very loud Brian Leiter, and a few more moderate skeptics. You also have people who thinks it is a good idea or at least an interesting idea with some potential. And then you have a ton of people who either haven't heard of it or are reserving judgment until they see how it plays out.

Frankly, your apparent assumption that you have spent more time researching this, thinking about this, and talking one on one with law faculty about this than has someone who is actually entering the program is ridiculous. I'm not saying no one can reach a different conclusion than I have. But there is certainly room for reasonable people to disagree on this subject.

I think there are two issues here. First, whether it is a good idea to shoot for academia at all. Personally, I think that is the idea that is much shakier, but it's my dream and I'm going for it regardless. Second is whether this program will help a person get there, particularly when compared with VAPs and fellowships. For various reasons, largely having to do with faculty support at Yale and the rather inconsistent faculty support of even the best fellowship programs, every law professor I spoke to unanimously thought this program was the way to go.

It's one thing to say that law schools shouldn't establish PhD programs. It's another thing to say that a person presented with the opportunity to be a member of the inaugural class of Yale's PhD program shouldn't take advantage of it.


I was suggesting you weren't getting advice from the right people. From what you've said few if any profs have tried to warn you off of this. Your link mentioned a split of opinion. I quoted a few anonymous profs who said they didn't consider the JSD (and this degree by extension) to be a serious credential. Plus the numbers suggest reasons for serious concern. Fewer people applied for this phd than any program I can think of. Almost no Americans with JSDs were appointed to tenure-track positions over the past few years. All of this and no one's pulled you aside and suggested you might want to reconsider? I find that kind of shocking. Particularly when most profs aren't all that shy about what is and isn't going to land you a teaching spot.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:15 pm

Image

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quakeroats
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby quakeroats » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:44 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Image


For all the don't-go-to-law-school posts, this horse has some life left. I'm a bit surprised there's not more skepticism here, but I suspect it's that everyone's so used to Yale being at the top of the law schools that anything with that name sounds amazing. If you don't believe me, try this. Go to your favorite law professor and say you're thinking about how to get into law teaching. You'll hear about appellate clerkships, short stints in DC firms and the government, VAP, fellowships, etc. but you won't hear about JSDs. 10 minutes in, tell them a buddy mentioned a JSD. You won't believe how high eyebrows can go.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:47 pm

But yet again, this isn't a JSD program. Asking people what they think of the JSD is not the same as asking them what they think of the Yale Ph.D. I know you think it's the same thing, but it's too early to tell if it will be treated as the same thing or not.

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quakeroats
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby quakeroats » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:04 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:But yet again, this isn't a JSD program. Asking people what they think of the JSD is not the same as asking them what they think of the Yale Ph.D. I know you think it's the same thing, but it's too early to tell if it will be treated as the same thing or not.


One year everyone can do a JSD, the next year only non-US students can and there's a new Ph. D. How is equivalence even a question? But sure, ask what your professor thinks of a Ph. D. in Law. The answer will be the same.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby thelawdoctor » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:18 pm

quakeroats wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:But yet again, this isn't a JSD program. Asking people what they think of the JSD is not the same as asking them what they think of the Yale Ph.D. I know you think it's the same thing, but it's too early to tell if it will be treated as the same thing or not.


One year everyone can do a JSD, the next year only non-US students can and there's a new Ph. D. How is equivalence even a question? But sure, ask what your professor thinks of a Ph. D. in Law. The answer will be the same.


but..............the name..................... :roll:

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Br3v
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby Br3v » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:22 pm

Do we have any idea how hard it is to get accepted to this program in the first place? Might make the debate moot.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby thelawdoctor » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:40 pm

Br3v wrote:Do we have any idea how hard it is to get accepted to this program in the first place? Might make the debate moot.


One would presume at least as hard as getting into IVY Law to begin with, but more so.

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LexLeon
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby LexLeon » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:48 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:quakeroats' view is just pure exaggeration


I think he's just a tad bit jelly.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:12 am

Alexandria: DESCRIBE your experience as a first year graduate student at YLS's PhD program.

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crestor
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby crestor » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:16 am

Dr. Dre wrote:Alexandria: DESCRIBE your experience as a first year graduate student at YLS's PhD program.


dre you forgot the magic word brah

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:34 am

kappycaft1 wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:Does anyone know if getting a PhD in law from Yale Law help in getting a tenured track position?

Is it even worth it?

I'd worry about getting into Yale Law first brah. :wink:

When are you retaking the LSAT, by the way?


I thought he wasn't. Didn't he say in another thread that he was just going to forget about the retake and go to UCI?

Alexandria
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby Alexandria » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:24 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:Alexandria: DESCRIBE your experience as a first year graduate student at YLS's PhD program.


Well, it's the Friday of the first week of classes. :) We had three weeks of orientation (probably overkill, or at least could have been condensed into a week or two). So far so good. We're just getting things figured out -- had our first couple sessions of our proseminar with Bruce Ackerman and Tom Tyler. I feel pretty well prepared for it by a constitutional theory seminar I took in law school; I know it's a lot more foreign to some of my classmates who aren't really into "big picture" theoretical discussions. There is a LOT of reading, between that seminar and my other demands. I'm taking one black letter law class that I didn't take in law school but that is related to the area I practiced in and my academic research, and I'm auditing another. And I'm doing an AMAZING directed study with a very prominent professor who is also my primary advisor (we have a similar academic interest area, which is why chose to be my advisor). I feel ridiculously lucky and like there is no possible way I won't come away from this experience with great pieces to publish.

My classmates are great -- there are just five of us, and we're already starting to form a great bond. The administration has also been great -- it's a new program, and they're figuring out stuff too (and it can be a little bit bureaucratic the way paperwork has to go through the grad school), but the enthusiasm for our arrival is undeniable. Apparently, this program has been in the works for a lot longer than I had realized. I think it was first proposed about 6 years ago, and there are people who have been working on it that whole time. So I think for them it is really cool to see the first class actually arrive.

Maybe I will start a blog. I just need to find time! New PhD program, 2-year-old daughter, and joined Crossfit this week!

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:31 pm

That's excellent to hear. Good luck with everything!

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Br3v
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby Br3v » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:53 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:That's excellent to hear. Good luck with everything!

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holmesboy
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Re: Yale PhD in Law

Postby holmesboy » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:59 pm

Alexandria wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:Alexandria: DESCRIBE your experience as a first year graduate student at YLS's PhD program.


Well, it's the Friday of the first week of classes. :) We had three weeks of orientation (probably overkill, or at least could have been condensed into a week or two). So far so good. We're just getting things figured out -- had our first couple sessions of our proseminar with Bruce Ackerman and Tom Tyler. I feel pretty well prepared for it by a constitutional theory seminar I took in law school; I know it's a lot more foreign to some of my classmates who aren't really into "big picture" theoretical discussions. There is a LOT of reading, between that seminar and my other demands. I'm taking one black letter law class that I didn't take in law school but that is related to the area I practiced in and my academic research, and I'm auditing another. And I'm doing an AMAZING directed study with a very prominent professor who is also my primary advisor (we have a similar academic interest area, which is why chose to be my advisor). I feel ridiculously lucky and like there is no possible way I won't come away from this experience with great pieces to publish.

My classmates are great -- there are just five of us, and we're already starting to form a great bond. The administration has also been great -- it's a new program, and they're figuring out stuff too (and it can be a little bit bureaucratic the way paperwork has to go through the grad school), but the enthusiasm for our arrival is undeniable. Apparently, this program has been in the works for a lot longer than I had realized. I think it was first proposed about 6 years ago, and there are people who have been working on it that whole time. So I think for them it is really cool to see the first class actually arrive.

Maybe I will start a blog. I just need to find time! New PhD program, 2-year-old daughter, and joined Crossfit this week!


This sounds awesome. Good luck, and please keep us updated!

I would definitely read your blog if you find the time to write one.




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