looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

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sillymike
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looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby sillymike » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:42 pm

hi everyone:

super splitter here, sub-3.0 GPA (2.79) and 172 lsat (+ one cancelled).

Looking for application advice. My goals are to get into the best school I can. I'm hoping i can get someone in the top 14 to bite just on that lsat... we will see.

I am registered for the june lsat. But i've been reading more and more that over 170/171/172-ish getting a higher score on the lsat doesn't really do much for you. I'm wondering if retaking is smart? I'm PTing in the high 170's now, I kind of anticipate a score drop on test day so best case scenario I'm looking at a 175/176-ish. Is the chance at a few more points worth the potential of scoring worse? I don't plan on scoring worse, obviously, but you never know.

The other thing I'm debating is waiting until october, but I am hoping to apply basically first day of the cycles. So, since I'm out of retakes, is it smarter to take in june, risk a drop, but anticipate a few more points?
Or wait until october, apply early with my 172, and hope I can get in the high 170's (higher than I would theoretically get in june, due to more time, the purportedly easier curve, etc)? Although I may have peaked, and maybe the mid/high 170's is the best i can do... I'm not thinking that waiting until oct. will get me a 180. Although... would a 180 even make a significant difference?

Or, should I retake in october, and just apply later than I wanted, thus trading off any advantaged to applying early for the potential that the first score they see will be a higher score? Good first impression and all?

thank y'all for any input.

mx23250
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby mx23250 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:02 pm

I would definitely retake it if I were you. A 172 is an excellent score, but if you're PTing in the upper 170s and can get ~175-176 on test day that would actually help your chances at a T14 A LOT, not to mention scholarship $$ I would imagine. I'm in the same boat as you actually, an LSAC UGPA of ~2.9 and I'm hoping to get to the early to mid 170s by October. In my opinion, you have a decent shot at getting into a T14 school with a 172, but if you can get a 175/176 I would expect you would have very goods odds at getting into a few of the T14. Every point gives you a big boost once you get into the 170s I've heard. Good luck!

mx23250
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby mx23250 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:13 pm

I do understand that you might not want to risk getting lower than 172, but if you're consistently scoring in the upper 170s, as a splitter, I would probably "risk it", particularly if you haven't PT'd under 172 in a long time. Also, if you take the October test you could still get your apps submitted by early Nov and I've heard that as long as you submit them before Thanksgiving it makes very little difference whether it's submitted mid Nov or mid/late Sept. I would think that even a 1 point boost (to a 173) and submitting in mid Nov would boost your application much more than submitting it with a 172 in September. That's just my opinion and what I've heard.

Ti Malice
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:58 pm

mx23250 wrote:Also, if you take the October test you could still get your apps submitted by early Nov and I've heard that as long as you submit them before Thanksgiving it makes very little difference whether it's submitted mid Nov or mid/late Sept. I would think that even a 1 point boost (to a 173) and submitting in mid Nov would boost your application much more than submitting it with a 172 in September. That's just my opinion and what I've heard.


The rules are historically very different in this regard for splitters. I'm sure things have changed as apps have declined, but splitters have traditionally needed to apply earlier than non-splitters.

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Cobretti
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby Cobretti » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:58 pm

Honestly as an extreme splitter i think everything in the 99th is the same. As a 3.0/173 I had very similar results to people with better lsats and similar GPA. With that gpa you're only getting in at maybe an ED UVA, NU if you have WE, and probably GULC. NYU will take 3.0ish GPAs if you hit 177+, but with 2.79 I'm not sure that they'd take you with a 180 since they clearly seem to do a scaled scoring system. I think you've done as well as you needed to do to realistically maximize your GPA and you'd be best off applying on day 1 as is.

also i'm not saying anything against taking the june lsat, you might as well if you're prepared, and who knows maybe it could give you that bump if someone really likes your application otherwise... but don't wait for an oct score, i dont see that being worth it.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:08 am

Retake and ED UVA

mx23250
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby mx23250 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:13 am

MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:Retake and ED UVA


I often hear the "ED UVA" advice despite hearing very little about EDing other T14 schools helping your chances. UVA is a school I would personally love to attend, so I'm curious, does ED there for a splitter really make that much of a difference or is it just very minor? I'm aware EDing a school would only help you (although may hurt scholarship $$) since it clearly shows you're committed to accepting, but how much of a boost does it really give you? I've often heard it does very little at the typical school. Is there something unique about UVA in terms of their ED admissions?

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:47 am

mx23250 wrote:
MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:Retake and ED UVA


I often hear the "ED UVA" advice despite hearing very little about EDing other T14 schools helping your chances. UVA is a school I would personally love to attend, so I'm curious, does ED there for a splitter really make that much of a difference or is it just very minor? I'm aware EDing a school would only help you (although may hurt scholarship $$) since it clearly shows you're committed to accepting, but how much of a boost does it really give you? I've often heard it does very little at the typical school. Is there something unique about UVA in terms of their ED admissions?


ED doesn't do much at many schools. UVA uses ED to lock down applicants with either a higher GPA or LSAT, and if one of these stats is high enough, they're often willing to accept the other below their 25th percentile. At most other T14s that have an ED program the "boost" for sub-par numbers is negigible or non-existent (eg Columbia). Look at UVA on LSN and you'll see a bunch of 17X, 3.0-3.3s; these are EDers. Even for UVA, 2.8 is on the low side but if you want the best school you can get and are not opposed to paying sticker, then retake and ED UVA is one of your best chances (the others being apply to NU with WE and GULC).
Last edited by MyNameIsFlynn! on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

mx23250
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby mx23250 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:48 am

MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
mx23250 wrote:
MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:Retake and ED UVA


I often hear the "ED UVA" advice despite hearing very little about EDing other T14 schools helping your chances. UVA is a school I would personally love to attend, so I'm curious, does ED there for a splitter really make that much of a difference or is it just very minor? I'm aware EDing a school would only help you (although may hurt scholarship $$) since it clearly shows you're committed to accepting, but how much of a boost does it really give you? I've often heard it does very little at the typical school. Is there something unique about UVA in terms of their ED admissions?


ED doesn't do much at many schools. UVA uses ED to lock down applicants with either a higher GPA or LSAT, and if one of these stats is high enough, UVA is often willing to accept the other below their 25th percentile. At most other T14s that have an ED program the "boost" for sub-par numbers is negigible or non-existent (eg Columbia). Look at LSN and you'll see a bunch of 17X, 3.0-3.3s; these are EDers. Even for UVA, 2.8 is on the low side but if you want the best school you can get and are not opposed to paying sticker, then retake and ED UVA is one of your best chances (the others being apply to NU with WE).


Thanks

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elterrible78
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby elterrible78 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:11 am

mx23250 wrote:
MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:Retake and ED UVA


I often hear the "ED UVA" advice despite hearing very little about EDing other T14 schools helping your chances. UVA is a school I would personally love to attend, so I'm curious, does ED there for a splitter really make that much of a difference or is it just very minor? I'm aware EDing a school would only help you (although may hurt scholarship $$) since it clearly shows you're committed to accepting, but how much of a boost does it really give you? I've often heard it does very little at the typical school. Is there something unique about UVA in terms of their ED admissions?


ED doesn't make a bit of difference at a lot of schools, but UVA is definitely one at which it does. For splitters, especially. Based on LSN data, splitters who ED are about 6.5 times more likely to get in than if they don't ED, which is pretty significant. For non-splitters (either reverse-splitters or applicants who fall into neither of those categories), that number is "only" 2.4 times more likely.

Also, just FYI (and again, going off LSN), the average LSAT/GPA for a splitter who ED'd UVA and was accepted (and there are 27 of them) was 174.4 / 3.17. The averages for splitters who EDed and were straight-up rejected (5 of them) was 174.8 / 2.83.

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Br3v
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby Br3v » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:13 am

If you think you could retake higher then do it, but honestly you have a 172. Like you said, if you get a 173/174 or something I don't think it would make a world of a difference being that you already have a great score.

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MT Cicero
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby MT Cicero » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:25 am

Edited
Last edited by MT Cicero on Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sillymike
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby sillymike » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:59 pm

Thanks for all the responses.

It's curious, because after I posted this, I spent the next few hours doing research and found that the common wisdom is that retaking and getting a lower score usually won't affect one's chances. Given that I am considering the june admin, and it's past the refund date, and a number of people are telling me not to wait until october, I'm surprised that nobody has said "you should sit the june lsat anyways, because if you go up, great, and if you drop, no big deal"

Was my research skewed in some way towards only reading threads that suggest that a drop in scores won't hurt? Or is something changing this cycle regarding how a score drop is perceived?

Also, I see that UVA give an ED boost, and, while I didn't know this until now, someone mentioned that and ED at columbia isn't worthwhile. only really looking around the top 15ish, looks like michigan, duke, ucla, penn, nyu, chicago, and georgetown all have ed programs (I see NU does too, but theirs is so strange as to not be helpful in my situation). Is there some common wisdom regarding which of these schools give a boost for ED and which one's don't?

thanks!

bp shinners
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby bp shinners » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:03 pm

sillymike wrote:Thanks for all the responses.

It's curious, because after I posted this, I spent the next few hours doing research and found that the common wisdom is that retaking and getting a lower score usually won't affect one's chances. Given that I am considering the june admin, and it's past the refund date, and a number of people are telling me not to wait until october, I'm surprised that nobody has said "you should sit the june lsat anyways, because if you go up, great, and if you drop, no big deal"

Was my research skewed in some way towards only reading threads that suggest that a drop in scores won't hurt? Or is something changing this cycle regarding how a score drop is perceived?


Usually, it won't be a big deal. Some schools in the T14 will take it into account, but it sounds like you're not targeting them because of your GPA.

However, for a splitter, anything negative on the application can create problems. So I wouldn't want to take the test if there's a chance your score would drop. You're PTing in the high-170s, though, so I would feel comfortable taking it now. You should have a good handle on how you're performing on the test if that's where you're scoring, so you can always cancel afterwards (which, again, not as good as nothing, but better than a lower score).

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Lexaholik
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Re: looking for application advice: splitter, should I retake?

Postby Lexaholik » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:59 pm

bp shinners wrote:
sillymike wrote:Thanks for all the responses.

It's curious, because after I posted this, I spent the next few hours doing research and found that the common wisdom is that retaking and getting a lower score usually won't affect one's chances. Given that I am considering the june admin, and it's past the refund date, and a number of people are telling me not to wait until october, I'm surprised that nobody has said "you should sit the june lsat anyways, because if you go up, great, and if you drop, no big deal"

Was my research skewed in some way towards only reading threads that suggest that a drop in scores won't hurt? Or is something changing this cycle regarding how a score drop is perceived?


Usually, it won't be a big deal. Some schools in the T14 will take it into account, but it sounds like you're not targeting them because of your GPA.

However, for a splitter, anything negative on the application can create problems. So I wouldn't want to take the test if there's a chance your score would drop. You're PTing in the high-170s, though, so I would feel comfortable taking it now. You should have a good handle on how you're performing on the test if that's where you're scoring, so you can always cancel afterwards (which, again, not as good as nothing, but better than a lower score).


retake. the upside probably isn't so great, especially if you move up just a point or two. but what's the downside? schools are going to benefit from your 172 one way or another, even if you get a 165 the second time.

when i applied to law schools years ago, they used the average lsat score. then, after i'd put together my applications, the ABA (or whoever is responsible for making these inane rules) decided that the highest score would be reported. i had a 2.9 and a 170, and i retook because the way i saw it, the downside risk was completely eliminated. friends thought i was crazy. maybe they were right-my score dropped 4 points. it didn't matter. i still got into my t14.




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