They still exist

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
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Dr. Dre
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Re: They still exist

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu May 30, 2013 3:47 pm

And this is why rad lulz is one of my favorite TLS poasters :mrgreen:

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: They still exist

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Thu May 30, 2013 11:16 pm

ph5354a wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:
ph5354a wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:OP if this is a small florida college, it's possible the pre law adviser gets a kickback: i.e. $ for recommending coastal. You should investigate this; it's a much badder ass way to help people.


I just threw up in my mouth.

If you assume people are motivated predominately by incentives that benefit them, it checks out. I mean, is it more likely a pre-law adviser is completely unaware of everything law related in the NY Times and is 100% incompetent, or that he's looking to fund his summer vacation?


You're right, it does check out, though I know plenty of uninformed pre-law advisers. I just assumed advisers were just too lazy or unmotivated to have the kind of tough, potentially awkward conversation that Cicero tried to have with people like this. Kickbacks would be pretty f-ed up. Definitely something to check out.

Even if this pre-law adviser is incompetent, it's a 40 hour a week job. Nobody is so incompetent that in these 40 hours devoted to guiding kids into law school, and raking in 50k a year that they wouldn't happen to stumble across the knowledge.

You need to figure he has a community, maybe he goes to church. They say, "Hi Bob, welcome to the church. How do you like it here in Town A?" Bob replies, "It's the tits." Church friend says, "That's great, Bob. What do you do?" Bob says, "I'm a pre-law adviser." Don't you think 1 church friend knows the legal economy is bad, and asks Bob his thoughts? It's not awkward. Bob isn't in one of these law schools. He's the law school expert.

So to say Bob is unaware a TTTT struggles to get its students, even the top students jobs seems kind of impossible.

It is also a victimless crime in that nobody feels the harm, or is aware of it for 3 years. By this time, they don't really remember Bob. Bob has no incentive to give good advice.

Also, and just so you know the pre-law adviser is an agent of the university. The university would be liable for hiring such a massive turd. So if Bob is doing something illegal, the University is vicariously liable as the principle. Just saying.

The problem is causation. If a doctor screws up, you can show them then and there. Here, they don't happen for 3 years, and then it's the law school who did it. The TTTT scheme is brilliant, and I realize it's more brilliant as I learn the law more and more. Based on all the liability doctrine of the past few hundred years, there's never going to be one specific entity who can be liable. It's genius. Bernie Maidoff was just all presentation to hide it. This is pure genius. I legitimately respect how clever the TTTT plotters are - dumb overconfident victims, federal money and so many guilty people that there's no 1 linchpin.

20141023
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Re: They still exist

Postby 20141023 » Fri May 31, 2013 12:21 am

rad lulz wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:I'm with rad lulz in that you shouldn't be telling that person anything, if he isn't your bro.

And even if it is in that person's well-being, you still shouldn't tell him anything, if he isn't your bro of course.

However, someone should do something about thattt advisor.

I dunno man... if you were walking across a bridge and saw someone starting to climb over the rail in order to commit suicide, would you try to stop them, or would you just let them jump because they're "not your bro"? Letting someone go to a for-profit TTT without saying anything is the same thing as letting someone commit financial suicide right in front of you. If they really want to jump they'll do it anyways, but I personally would at least try to talk them out of it. :|

I mean I don't know how I'm gonna explain etiquette and how to be polite. Either you think it's important and care about being polite or you don't. But jumping off a fucking bridge is readily distinguishable from going to Coastal. I would obviously tell the dude about to jump off a bridge not to jump off a bridge. I can't believe I am responding to this.

1) Finality and temporality - Jumping off a bridge will extinguish your life. And the dude's literal next action of swinging his leg over the railing will end his life unless I intervene. No matter how bad a decision going to Coastal is in pretty much all situations, it will not immediately extinguish your life.

2) Mental status - The Coastalbro is making a free choice. Whereas in the case of the dude who's about to hurl himself off the bridge, he's probably not making a free will choice in the way we would think of it, there's a good chance he's affected by depression, provocation, or some form of mental problem. There's a good chance he's sick in the head somewhere. He may not be able to make a competent decision and you should say/do something. As a comparison, I probably wouldn't tell someone about to commit ritual seppuku to cut it out (lolpun).

To use maybe a more apt analogy just the other day I saw an acquaintance and he made a joke relating to his drug dealing activities (which I did not know about) and I just laughed politely. He's not my bro and he didn't ask for my advice so it's not my fucking business.

You're right... The bridge example was a little too immediate. Let me switch it up and use a desert instead. Let's say you're crossing a desert with a group of strangers, and suddenly one of the members of your party cries out "look, an oasis!!" You can clearly see that there is no water in the direction he's pointing, but he is tired from walking and thus starts heading off to his mirage. He probably won't die immediately... It will be a slow and painful death out there. Would you try to tell him he's seeing things or just let him go? Also, as far as mental status goes, one could make the argument for many of the people who go to law school that they feel like it is "their only remaining choice." Indeed, law might might very well be a mirage for basket weavers and film history majors. :|

Anyway, to move away from the analogies, I wouldn't tell someone bluntly that "lulz ur skewl sux" (unless it were on TLS :lol: ) ... I would try to warn them in a roundabout way by saying something like: "Yeah, when I was trying to decide where to go, law school transparency dot com helped me a lot because they break down the various NALP data so that anyone can easily understand it. You should also check it out if you haven't already."
Last edited by 20141023 on Fri May 31, 2013 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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guano
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Re: They still exist

Postby guano » Fri May 31, 2013 12:31 am

Back to the bridge analogy, I'd tell the fucker jump, don't jump, whatever, just make a decision and stop holding up traffic

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suralin
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Re: They still exist

Postby suralin » Fri May 31, 2013 12:53 am

bananapeanutbutter wrote:OP if this is a small florida college, it's possible the pre law adviser gets a kickback: i.e. $ for recommending coastal. You should investigate this; it's a much badder ass way to help people.

bananapeanutbutter wrote:
ph5354a wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:
ph5354a wrote:
I just threw up in my mouth.

If you assume people are motivated predominately by incentives that benefit them, it checks out. I mean, is it more likely a pre-law adviser is completely unaware of everything law related in the NY Times and is 100% incompetent, or that he's looking to fund his summer vacation?


You're right, it does check out, though I know plenty of uninformed pre-law advisers. I just assumed advisers were just too lazy or unmotivated to have the kind of tough, potentially awkward conversation that Cicero tried to have with people like this. Kickbacks would be pretty f-ed up. Definitely something to check out.

Even if this pre-law adviser is incompetent, it's a 40 hour a week job. Nobody is so incompetent that in these 40 hours devoted to guiding kids into law school, and raking in 50k a year that they wouldn't happen to stumble across the knowledge.

You need to figure he has a community, maybe he goes to church. They say, "Hi Bob, welcome to the church. How do you like it here in Town A?" Bob replies, "It's the tits." Church friend says, "That's great, Bob. What do you do?" Bob says, "I'm a pre-law adviser." Don't you think 1 church friend knows the legal economy is bad, and asks Bob his thoughts? It's not awkward. Bob isn't in one of these law schools. He's the law school expert.

So to say Bob is unaware a TTTT struggles to get its students, even the top students jobs seems kind of impossible.

It is also a victimless crime in that nobody feels the harm, or is aware of it for 3 years. By this time, they don't really remember Bob. Bob has no incentive to give good advice.

Also, and just so you know the pre-law adviser is an agent of the university. The university would be liable for hiring such a massive turd. So if Bob is doing something illegal, the University is vicariously liable as the principle. Just saying.

The problem is causation. If a doctor screws up, you can show them then and there. Here, they don't happen for 3 years, and then it's the law school who did it. The TTTT scheme is brilliant, and I realize it's more brilliant as I learn the law more and more. Based on all the liability doctrine of the past few hundred years, there's never going to be one specific entity who can be liable. It's genius. Bernie Maidoff was just all presentation to hide it. This is pure genius. I legitimately respect how clever the TTTT plotters are - dumb overconfident victims, federal money and so many guilty people that there's no 1 linchpin.


Brah, it sounds like you think there's some serious conspiracy/criminal shit going on with this pre-law advisor (and presumably other advisors who say similar things). I highly doubt it; it's much more likely that they don't take their pre-law advising job too seriously--tenured professors likely are busy enough with other shit--and just don't understand today's legal market (think about how ill-informed the general public is about law school).

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

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ph5354a
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Re: They still exist

Postby ph5354a » Fri May 31, 2013 9:18 am

Yeah, I acknowledge that it's possible that a kick back situation is going on, but just to offer a different perspective: I go to a private top 100 (is that a thing?) school with professional career counselors (not professors) and our career center is usually named to Princeton Review's top career center list --not saying that means much, just giving background facts. Our pre-law adviser never once mentioned anything to me about the state of the legal profession during my three meetings with her. She actually encouraged me to apply to nearby schools (one T20 and a couple other T1's) because she didn't think I would get into the T14. I should also note that she does not focus exclusively on pre-law advising, and I would guess few schools have a pre-law exclusive adviser.

Career centers are focused on one main metric: the 9 month survey. From their perspective, if they can get someone into a law school, any law school, that's a positive career outcome and that's one less person they have to worry about being unemployed come survey time. Their employment status three years down the road does not matter to them.

20141023
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Re: They still exist

Postby 20141023 » Fri May 31, 2013 9:36 am

ph5354a wrote:Yeah, I acknowledge that it's possible that a kick back situation is going on, but just to offer a different perspective: I go to a private top 100 (is that a thing?) school with professional career counselors (not professors) and our career center is usually named to Princeton Review's top career center list --not saying that means much, just giving background facts. Our pre-law adviser never once mentioned anything to me about the state of the legal profession during my three meetings with her. She actually encouraged me to apply to nearby schools (one T20 and a couple other T1's) because she didn't think I would get into the T14. I should also note that she does not focus exclusively on pre-law advising, and I would guess few schools have a pre-law exclusive adviser.

Career centers are focused on one main metric: the 9 month survey. From their perspective, if they can get someone into a law school, any law school, that's a positive career outcome and that's one less person they have to worry about being unemployed come survey time. Their employment status three years down the road does not matter to them.

This, and also pre-law advisers are there to help assess your chances of getting into schools based upon your numbers. They are (or at least should be if they're doing their job) informed about law school admission standards; their job is to help you achieve your goal of getting into law school, not to analyze your job prospects thereafter. They are basically like a really shitty version of the "What Are My Chances?" forum on TLS. :|

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ph5354a
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Re: They still exist

Postby ph5354a » Fri May 31, 2013 11:07 am

kappycaft1 wrote:They are basically like a really shitty version of the "What Are My Chances?" forum on TLS. :|


This is so true. My adviser was helpful with my PS and resume, but in retrospect, the advice she gave me on where to apply and what my chances were was pure shit.

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Danger Zone
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Re: They still exist

Postby Danger Zone » Fri May 31, 2013 11:11 am

rad lulz wrote:I probably wouldn't tell someone about to commit ritual seppuku to cut it out (lolpun).

LOL

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jbagelboy
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Re: They still exist

Postby jbagelboy » Fri May 31, 2013 7:18 pm

ph5354a wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:They are basically like a really shitty version of the "What Are My Chances?" forum on TLS. :|


This is so true. My adviser was helpful with my PS and resume, but in retrospect, the advice she gave me on where to apply and what my chances were was pure shit.


TBH, I'm surprised people "ask" their prelaw advisers where to go to law school. I came to mine beginning of senior year after looked at some of the data information privately and said hey, this is where I want to go, these are my safeties and reaches based on my GPA; 1) how have previous students at my UG fared when applying to these schools? What are the schools average GPA/LSAT application numbers? Where do they land? and 2) what can I do to make my application stronger?

Nothing they told me verbally was of significance, but this data helped me frame my chances. Of the more unfortunate things I was told was that I would be basically a lock with a 170 at a certain top law school coming out of my UG; in fact, what led the prelaw advisers to believe this were 3 couple successful applications the past couple years with my GPA which I later found out were all black and latino kids. womp womp

BigZuck
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Re: They still exist

Postby BigZuck » Fri May 31, 2013 7:29 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
ph5354a wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:They are basically like a really shitty version of the "What Are My Chances?" forum on TLS. :|


This is so true. My adviser was helpful with my PS and resume, but in retrospect, the advice she gave me on where to apply and what my chances were was pure shit.


TBH, I'm surprised people "ask" their prelaw advisers where to go to law school. I came to mine beginning of senior year after looked at some of the data information privately and said hey, this is where I want to go, these are my safeties and reaches based on my GPA; 1) how have previous students at my UG fared when applying to these schools? What are the schools average GPA/LSAT application numbers? Where do they land? and 2) what can I do to make my application stronger?

Nothing they told me verbally was of significance, but this data helped me frame my chances. Of the more unfortunate things I was told was that I would be basically a lock with a 170 at a certain top law school coming out of my UG; in fact, what led the prelaw advisers to believe this were 3 couple successful applications the past couple years with my GPA which I later found out were all black and latino kids. womp womp


Stanfurd

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ph5354a
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Re: They still exist

Postby ph5354a » Fri May 31, 2013 7:37 pm

To be clear, I never asked my adviser where I should go either. I told her I was looking at Cornell and NYU and she encouraged me to apply to other local TTT in addition because she didn't think I would get into those schools with my gpa. And yes, I had already done my own research too to know that her advice wasn't very good, but I'm still surprised that she even told me that.

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sinfiery
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Re: They still exist

Postby sinfiery » Fri May 31, 2013 7:38 pm

Let us all consider that OPs friend may have scored a 129.

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jbagelboy
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Re: They still exist

Postby jbagelboy » Fri May 31, 2013 9:09 pm

ph5354a wrote:To be clear, I never asked my adviser where I should go either. I told her I was looking at Cornell and NYU and she encouraged me to apply to other local TTT in addition because she didn't think I would get into those schools with my gpa. And yes, I had already done my own research too to know that her advice wasn't very good, but I'm still surprised that she even told me that.


Right of course -- Im sorry I didnt mean to suggest YOU did that, but people come on all the time and say they asked their prelaw adviser where to apply to and got these recommendations

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Lavitz
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Re: They still exist

Postby Lavitz » Fri May 31, 2013 9:12 pm

Suralin wrote:"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

+1

I have a friend whose pre-law adviser told her she shouldn't retake the LSAT because she "had a score good enough to get into some law schools, and it would hurt her if she scored lower." This was well after schools lost any incentive to average scores. I don't think there's any way kickbacks could explain that advice because the adviser wasn't even pushing certain schools. It was just terrible advice that the adviser probably repeats year after year without paying any attention to changes in admissions practices.

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CaptainLeela
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Re: They still exist

Postby CaptainLeela » Fri May 31, 2013 9:23 pm

Just another data point: through a series of events I saw more than one pre-law adviser at my undergraduate institution. One encouraged me to go to the local TTT and apply to my undergrad. That was all. Basically no relationship to my numbers. The other, who just so happens to have her JD from UVA, gave me EXCEEDINGLY helpful information and has been a wonderful resource along the way. A lot of school based guidance, unfortunately, is the luck of the draw and based upon whether the individual actually happens to have a legal background or is reading from a provided "script."
Last edited by CaptainLeela on Fri May 31, 2013 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: They still exist

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Fri May 31, 2013 9:24 pm

Lavitz wrote:
Suralin wrote:"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

+1

I have a friend whose pre-law adviser told her she shouldn't retake the LSAT because she "had a score good enough to get into some law schools, and it would hurt her if she scored lower." This was well after schools lost any incentive to average scores. I don't think there's any way kickbacks could explain that advice because the adviser wasn't even pushing certain schools. It was just terrible advice that the adviser probably repeats year after year without paying any attention to changes in admissions practices.

I overhead someone saying that their prelaw advisor told them that they need to do study abroad in order to have a chance at getting into Michigan law, and that law school is a great idea because law is truly international now.

Almost lol'd but didn't want to look like an asshole.

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ph5354a
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Re: They still exist

Postby ph5354a » Fri May 31, 2013 9:28 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
ph5354a wrote:To be clear, I never asked my adviser where I should go either. I told her I was looking at Cornell and NYU and she encouraged me to apply to other local TTT in addition because she didn't think I would get into those schools with my gpa. And yes, I had already done my own research too to know that her advice wasn't very good, but I'm still surprised that she even told me that.


Right of course -- Im sorry I didnt mean to suggest YOU did that, but people come on all the time and say they asked their prelaw adviser where to apply to and got these recommendations

Agreed. I think we can all agree that prelaw advisers are the root of all evil. :D

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HankBashir
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Re: They still exist

Postby HankBashir » Fri May 31, 2013 9:32 pm

Heh. I didn't visit my pre-law advisor at all. Looks like I might've lucked out.

Stinson
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Re: They still exist

Postby Stinson » Fri May 31, 2013 9:44 pm

My school was kind of small, but pre-law advisor was most certainly not a full-time job there. It was a part-time commitment of one of the political science professors.

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Micdiddy
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Re: They still exist

Postby Micdiddy » Fri May 31, 2013 11:16 pm

HankBashir wrote:Heh. I didn't visit my pre-law advisor at all. Looks like I might've lucked out.


Same here. If I did she probably would have told me to apply to David and McGeorge.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: They still exist

Postby Dr. Dre » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:05 am

Micdiddy wrote:
HankBashir wrote:Heh. I didn't visit my pre-law advisor at all. Looks like I might've lucked out.


Same here. If I did she probably would have told me to apply to David and McGeorge.


David? That must be a TTTT 8)

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Micdiddy
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Re: They still exist

Postby Micdiddy » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:48 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
Micdiddy wrote:
HankBashir wrote:Heh. I didn't visit my pre-law advisor at all. Looks like I might've lucked out.


Same here. If I did she probably would have told me to apply to David and McGeorge.


David? That must be a TTTT 8)


If only I had the right #2 pencil I wouldn't be making so many typos...

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Young Marino
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Re: They still exist

Postby Young Marino » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:09 pm

Perhaps OP's friend should spend some time on TLS. It definitely cured me of my special snowflake syndrome

rmorris87
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Re: They still exist

Postby rmorris87 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:20 pm

A tough, yet unfortunately all too common dilemma. I would recommend just telling the poor lemming. He may not thank you now, but he certainly will later. There's essentially no doubt about that. Just get the point across too him and he will thank you in due time. My condolences to you for being in this harrowing situation.




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