They still exist

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
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Cicero76
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They still exist

Postby Cicero76 » Wed May 29, 2013 5:19 pm

.

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Grazzhoppa
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Re: They still exist

Postby Grazzhoppa » Wed May 29, 2013 5:25 pm

kool.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: They still exist

Postby deadpoetnsp » Wed May 29, 2013 5:27 pm

Grazzhoppa wrote:kool.


story.

justcallmeit
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Re: They still exist

Postby justcallmeit » Wed May 29, 2013 5:30 pm

deadpoetnsp wrote:
Grazzhoppa wrote:kool.


story.


bro.

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nickb285
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Re: They still exist

Postby nickb285 » Wed May 29, 2013 5:35 pm

justcallmeit wrote:
deadpoetnsp wrote:
Grazzhoppa wrote:kool.


story.


bro.


!

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Scotchandsoda
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Re: They still exist

Postby Scotchandsoda » Wed May 29, 2013 5:35 pm

Cicero76 wrote:I honestly thought the following story was impossible in the era of Google.

Today I had lunch with a young guy at the place I'm working from the summer. He just graduated from a private school here in Florida, asked me what I'm doing next year. Told him Yale law, he goes "Oh cool, I'm going to law school too!"

So I ask where. "Florida Coastal," he answers. Oh boy. Here comes the dilemma of trying to warn him without being a dick. I ask him what made him choose there and he says (I'm not kidding) "It's the only one I applied to because my prelaw advisor told me what a good school it was and they seemed really interested in me."

So I ask him how he's going to pay for it, subtly trying to bring up the absurdity of the cost, and he says that he has a scholarship. So I ask if his scholarship has a GPA stip. He has no idea what that means, and when I explain it he tells me that's not a problem because "he plans on a 4.0."

He then absolutely refused to believe me when I tried to explain a law school curve and why that 4.0 was basically impossible. Special snowflake syndrome like I have never seen in my life. His plan after graduation is to do corporate law, "probably in a big corporation." (The old in-house counsel right out of graduation?)

He then explains that Coastal is a "small school" where he's "already gotten to know some amazing professors" and that it's on a gorgeous lake with a dock so he just felt right at home and loved it, which I wouldn't understand coming from a "big school" like Yale. So then I spent a few minutes discussing that Coastal's 600 person class actually qualifies it as big, while Yale's 200 person class qualifies it as small....

But most of all he was excited about Coastal's commitment to student success, and how they pair each student with a personal bar exam tutor for their entire third year, and for any time after that for ANY BAR IN THE COUNTRY (his emphasis). He was completely dumbfounded that Yale doesn't give its students personal tutors, because what is the third year supposed to be if we aren't focusing preparing for the bar? (Apparently Coastal's 3rd year is one giant BarBri course? WTF?)

Anyway, the point is that no matter how many times I tried valiantly to drag the conversation back to "did you think about other schools?" and "maybe you should try googling this...." he remained the most upbeat, happy, and excited future debt slave that I have ever seen. We're having lunch again on Friday, and now I'm struggling with whether I should drop the polite and supportive veneer and just yell to the heavens that he's making the biggest mistake of his life and shake him until he withdraws. What's less ethical--making him feel terrible about himself or letting him make a terrible choice? I doubt I can change his mind anyway--I just met the guy.

I swear this isn't a flame. The entire time I was wondering if he was some giant TLS troll getting me for a good one in real life by spouting literally every single stereotype of a lemming that we come up with here. In the age of LST and Campos and David Segal and TLS, I just can't believe someone doesn't know how to google "Is Florida Coastal a good choice?".....


and?

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Balthy
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Re: They still exist

Postby Balthy » Wed May 29, 2013 5:37 pm

WTf? This is the only forum where a thread contrasting common forum wisdom with the shortcomings of an utter noob doesn't turn into an incestuous circle jerk. You guys don't even know how to internet.


Anyway, OP, I think I would keep telling him it's a bad idea, but not in a dickish way (don't say anything about Yale.. oh yeah, congrats on that, asshole). :wink:

rad lulz
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Re: They still exist

Postby rad lulz » Wed May 29, 2013 5:46 pm

Who cares

You're not bros w this dude

And he didn't seem to ask for your advice

Just let him do what he wants

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suralin
better than you
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Re: They still exist

Postby suralin » Wed May 29, 2013 5:46 pm

superdingle2000 wrote:WTf? This is the only forum where a thread contrasting common forum wisdom with the shortcomings of an utter noob doesn't turn into an incestuous circle jerk. You guys don't even know how to internet.

justcallmeit wrote:
deadpoetnsp wrote:
Grazzhoppa wrote:kool.

story.

bro.

LOL. Let's meta-circlejerk about how circlejerky the OP is.

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nickb285
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Re: They still exist

Postby nickb285 » Wed May 29, 2013 5:48 pm

More substantively, yeah it sucks that this guy is such a willful idiot, but that's the thing--it's willful. If he were just uneducated he'd have listened. But if he's not aware of what a scholarship stip is, that means his application process was as follows:

1. Decide to go to LS.
2. Talk to idiot prelaw advisor, take her word as gospel, make no other contingency plans.
3. Got into FIU, looked at first paragraph of scholarship/acceptance letter, stopped reading.
4. Believed, word for word, every single thing said by any FIU rep.
5. Dismissed out of hand due to special snowflake syndrome anything anyone else said.

To my mind, your work is done here. You made the effort, if he was interested in not getting screwed he'd at least humor you. If this dude is a close friend, try one more time and then wash your hands of it. If he's just a work acquaintance, it's not your job to drag him kicking and screaming onto the Googles. Sucks to be him, but it's his own fault at this juncture.

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isuperserial
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Re: They still exist

Postby isuperserial » Wed May 29, 2013 5:49 pm

Of course people like this still exist. Learn to live with them, because I'm pretty sure this is statistically most of the people who go to law school.

This girl got mad at me for disparaging her life choices when she told me she wants to go to Cooley and all I said was, "You're really smart, you can do better than Cooley." I thought that was a kind thing to say, but she got pissed off. From this point on, I've determined that I'll keep my mouth shut and just let them do whatever they want.

It's neither of our jobs to educate people about this law school application system. We have no obligation to do so, and they're not asking us to.

Jimbo_Jones
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Re: They still exist

Postby Jimbo_Jones » Wed May 29, 2013 5:52 pm

Cicero76 wrote:Told him Yale law


#humblebrag

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Danger Zone
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Re: They still exist

Postby Danger Zone » Wed May 29, 2013 5:53 pm

OP's right. People with Asperger's do still exist. Fuck you, DSM-V.

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nickb285
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Re: They still exist

Postby nickb285 » Wed May 29, 2013 5:54 pm

isuperserial wrote:You're really smart, you can do better than Cooley." I thought that was a kind thing to say, but she got pissed off.


TBF, to someone who hasn't done the research, this sounds like "My school is for smarter people than yours, why are you going to a school for idiots?"

NYstate
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Re: They still exist

Postby NYstate » Wed May 29, 2013 5:56 pm

Cicero76 wrote:I honestly thought the following story was impossible in the era of Google.

Today I had lunch with a young guy at the place I'm working from the summer. He just graduated from a private school here in Florida, asked me what I'm doing next year. Told him Yale law, he goes "Oh cool, I'm going to law school too!"

So I ask where. "Florida Coastal," he answers. Oh boy. Here comes the dilemma of trying to warn him without being a dick. I ask him what made him choose there and he says (I'm not kidding) "It's the only one I applied to because my prelaw advisor told me what a good school it was and they seemed really interested in me."

So I ask him how he's going to pay for it, subtly trying to bring up the absurdity of the cost, and he says that he has a scholarship. So I ask if his scholarship has a GPA stip. He has no idea what that means, and when I explain it he tells me that's not a problem because "he plans on a 4.0."

He then absolutely refused to believe me when I tried to explain a law school curve and why that 4.0 was basically impossible. Special snowflake syndrome like I have never seen in my life. His plan after graduation is to do corporate law, "probably in a big corporation." (The old in-house counsel right out of graduation?)

He then explains that Coastal is a "small school" where he's "already gotten to know some amazing professors" and that it's on a gorgeous lake with a dock so he just felt right at home and loved it, which I wouldn't understand coming from a "big school" like Yale. So then I spent a few minutes discussing that Coastal's 600 person class actually qualifies it as big, while Yale's 200 person class qualifies it as small....

But most of all he was excited about Coastal's commitment to student success, and how they pair each student with a personal bar exam tutor for their entire third year, and for any time after that for ANY BAR IN THE COUNTRY (his emphasis). He was completely dumbfounded that Yale doesn't give its students personal tutors, because what is the third year supposed to be if we aren't focusing preparing for the bar? (Apparently Coastal's 3rd year is one giant BarBri course? WTF?)

Anyway, the point is that no matter how many times I tried valiantly to drag the conversation back to "did you think about other schools?" and "maybe you should try googling this...." he remained the most upbeat, happy, and excited future debt slave that I have ever seen. We're having lunch again on Friday, and now I'm struggling with whether I should drop the polite and supportive veneer and just yell to the heavens that he's making the biggest mistake of his life and shake him until he withdraws. What's less ethical--making him feel terrible about himself or letting him make a terrible choice? I doubt I can change his mind anyway--I just met the guy.

I swear this isn't a flame. The entire time I was wondering if he was some giant TLS troll getting me for a good one in real life by spouting literally every single stereotype of a lemming that we come up with here. In the age of LST and Campos and David Segal and TLS, I just can't believe someone doesn't know how to google "Is Florida Coastal a good choice?".....



OP the message about the law school scam has barely begun to spread. There is still a basic mindset that law is a great career that pays extremely well. I suspect that even most people on this forum still believe that a career in law is a great and stable profession. The difference is that many people on TLS realize the employment odds and they try to push the odds in their favor by going to the best school they can, even if it means years of debt. Almost everyone is looking at law for career security.

I'm not sure how to get this guys attention. Maybe buy him Campos' book if he will read it. The problem is that he probably feels backed into a corner.

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Danger Zone
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Re: They still exist

Postby Danger Zone » Wed May 29, 2013 6:01 pm

Oh wait, I just noticed that people are encouraging this type of idiotic behavior. Unless you're actually friends with the dude, leave it be. Even then, it's debatable whether you should say shit like "I'm going to Yale and you're going to a padded room."

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Dr. Dre
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Re: They still exist

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed May 29, 2013 6:09 pm

OP, you're going to Yale -- the best law school on this planet?!

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jbagelboy
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Re: They still exist

Postby jbagelboy » Wed May 29, 2013 6:19 pm

there's that great** line in Family Guy where they are taking Chris to space camp, and Peter exclaims - - "but either way we are stopping at that down syndrome camp we passed on the way back", to which Lois responds, "Peter, that was the University of Florida".


just edit the clip to say "Florida Coastal" instead and tweet it to him over lunch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWiXZ7k99Q4


(**obviously offensive to the mentally handicapped, a sentiment which I do not approve, but I still laughed for like 45 seconds.)

fallingup
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Re: They still exist

Postby fallingup » Wed May 29, 2013 6:22 pm

This is the kind of person admitted to Yale Law? Disappointing.

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Micdiddy
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Re: They still exist

Postby Micdiddy » Wed May 29, 2013 6:26 pm

I may be in the minority, which I am fine with, but please, please, please try to educate him further about the mistake he is trying to make. He got caught up in one conversation with someone he barely knew who tells him he is going to YALE LAW and you guys think he's an idiot or Aspie for trying to talk up his plans? It was prob all he could do to not feel like a total failure. Inside, he was probably seething with jealousy, and the fact that he remained unnaturally upbeat I think supports that he was putting on a brave face.
TBH, he prob went home and started doing more research on his own right away. The fact that he tried to save face in one conversation does not mean you should give up on him and let him stroll into financial ruin. Do you have an obligation to do something? Absolutely not. But that's a different question about whether you should, and specifically to your OP, how you would go about doing it.

I taught an LSAT class with a very nice girl who came in beaming about her opportunity to go to American, and how it was her "dream school." I asked a lot of similar questions you did, extremely politely, and at the end of it I simply suggested she take a look at LST. She came back a few days later with her eyes open about what a festering TTT American was because the stats don't lie. When you see him on Friday, tell him about LST, you can even make it sound like you stumbled ontothe Florida Coastal page while doing some law school research and were shocked to see their employment score. "Does FC mention why their score is so bad? Did your pre-law advisor say anything about this? Maybe you should bring it up to them..." and see where it goes from there.
At the same time, ask him about his LSAT prep to try and gauge whether or not he could do better. If you guys work a decent gig (or even if you don't), push him in the direction of retaking and reapplying, saying how you considered sticking with this stress-free, good paying, rewarding, (whatever) job for another year (assuming there are redeeming qualities to the job).

Hopefully, even out of pure curiosity, he will check LST. At THAT point, if he still insists on FC, then you can FO him, IMO.

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Danger Zone
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Re: They still exist

Postby Danger Zone » Wed May 29, 2013 6:29 pm

Micdiddy wrote:I may be in the minority, which I am fine with, but please, please, please try to educate him further about the mistake he is trying to make. He got caught up in one conversation with someone he barely knew who tells him he is going to YALE LAW and you guys think he's an idiot or Aspie for trying to talk up his plans? It was prob all he could do to not feel like a total failure. Inside, he was probably seething with jealousy, and the fact that he remained unnaturally upbeat I think supports that he was putting on a brave face.
TBH, he prob went home and started doing more research on his own right away. The fact that he tried to save face in one conversation does not mean you should give up on him and let him stroll into financial ruin. Do you have an obligation to do something? Absolutely not. But that's a different question about whether you should, and specifically to your OP, how you would go about doing it.

I taught an LSAT class with a very nice girl who came in beaming about her opportunity to go to American, and how it was her "dream school." I asked a lot of similar questions you did, extremely politely, and at the end of it I simply suggested she take a look at LST. She came back a few days later with her eyes open about what a festering TTT American was because the stats don't lie. When you see him on Friday, tell him about LST, you can even make it sound like you stumbled ontothe Florida Coastal page while doing some law school research and were shocked to see their employment score. "Does FC mention why their score is so bad? Did your pre-law advisor say anything about this? Maybe you should bring it up to them..." and see where it goes from there.
At the same time, ask him about his LSAT prep to try and gauge whether or not he could do better. If you guys work a decent gig (or even if you don't), push him in the direction of retaking and reapplying, saying how you considered sticking with this stress-free, good paying, rewarding, (whatever) job for another year (assuming there are redeeming qualities to the job).

Hopefully, even out of pure curiosity, he will check LST. At THAT point, if he still insists on FC, then you can FO him, IMO.

Yeah, but like, you don't actually believe this is the way you should talk to people, right?

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jbagelboy
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Re: They still exist

Postby jbagelboy » Wed May 29, 2013 6:30 pm

Micdiddy wrote:I may be in the minority, which I am fine with, but please, please, please try to educate him further about the mistake he is trying to make. He got caught up in one conversation with someone he barely knew who tells him he is going to YALE LAW and you guys think he's an idiot or Aspie for trying to talk up his plans? It was prob all he could do to not feel like a total failure. Inside, he was probably seething with jealousy, and the fact that he remained unnaturally upbeat I think supports that he was putting on a brave face.
TBH, he prob went home and started doing more research on his own right away. The fact that he tried to save face in one conversation does not mean you should give up on him and let him stroll into financial ruin. Do you have an obligation to do something? Absolutely not. But that's a different question about whether you should, and specifically to your OP, how you would go about doing it.

I taught an LSAT class with a very nice girl who came in beaming about her opportunity to go to American, and how it was her "dream school." I asked a lot of similar questions you did, extremely politely, and at the end of it I simply suggested she take a look at LST. She came back a few days later with her eyes open about what a festering TTT American was because the stats don't lie. When you see him on Friday, tell him about LST, you can even make it sound like you stumbled ontothe Florida Coastal page while doing some law school research and were shocked to see their employment score. "Does FC mention why their score is so bad? Did your pre-law advisor say anything about this? Maybe you should bring it up to them..." and see where it goes from there.
At the same time, ask him about his LSAT prep to try and gauge whether or not he could do better. If you guys work a decent gig (or even if you don't), push him in the direction of retaking and reapplying, saying how you considered sticking with this stress-free, good paying, rewarding, (whatever) job for another year (assuming there are redeeming qualities to the job).

Hopefully, even out of pure curiosity, he will check LST. At THAT point, if he still insists on FC, then you can FO him, IMO.


this is TCR advice

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Micdiddy
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Re: They still exist

Postby Micdiddy » Wed May 29, 2013 6:37 pm

Danger Zone wrote:
Micdiddy wrote:I may be in the minority, which I am fine with, but please, please, please try to educate him further about the mistake he is trying to make. He got caught up in one conversation with someone he barely knew who tells him he is going to YALE LAW and you guys think he's an idiot or Aspie for trying to talk up his plans? It was prob all he could do to not feel like a total failure. Inside, he was probably seething with jealousy, and the fact that he remained unnaturally upbeat I think supports that he was putting on a brave face.
TBH, he prob went home and started doing more research on his own right away. The fact that he tried to save face in one conversation does not mean you should give up on him and let him stroll into financial ruin. Do you have an obligation to do something? Absolutely not. But that's a different question about whether you should, and specifically to your OP, how you would go about doing it.

I taught an LSAT class with a very nice girl who came in beaming about her opportunity to go to American, and how it was her "dream school." I asked a lot of similar questions you did, extremely politely, and at the end of it I simply suggested she take a look at LST. She came back a few days later with her eyes open about what a festering TTT American was because the stats don't lie. When you see him on Friday, tell him about LST, you can even make it sound like you stumbled ontothe Florida Coastal page while doing some law school research and were shocked to see their employment score. "Does FC mention why their score is so bad? Did your pre-law advisor say anything about this? Maybe you should bring it up to them..." and see where it goes from there.
At the same time, ask him about his LSAT prep to try and gauge whether or not he could do better. If you guys work a decent gig (or even if you don't), push him in the direction of retaking and reapplying, saying how you considered sticking with this stress-free, good paying, rewarding, (whatever) job for another year (assuming there are redeeming qualities to the job).

Hopefully, even out of pure curiosity, he will check LST. At THAT point, if he still insists on FC, then you can FO him, IMO.

Yeah, but like, you don't actually believe this is the way you should talk to people, right?


That's a rather loaded question. Depends entirely on the person. As far as I could tell by the OP, this is exactly how I would talk to the person.

Eta: if you would like a lengthier explanation as to why I would bring it up in a very coy, disingenuous way, it is because in my experience (and as this guy has already shown) people do not respond well to "you're an idiot, and you're going to an awful school." They also don't respond well to "I know better than you do, so shut up and listen to me." If OP actually wants this person to be open to the advice presented, it is more strategical to make it seem like you yourself stumbled upon it, or are shocked to see it, because then he will feel you weren't just out specifically to make him look foolish and yourself superior. If you walk up to him, shove LST in his face and say "SEE! That place sucks! Don't go!" He may instantly devolve into "defensive mode" as we have already seen him do, and shut down to sound, reasoned advice.
I am perfectly fine with other suggestions though, with the caveat this doesn't turn into a "do the ends justify the means" philosophical dispute that will be much broader than the narrow scope of this thread.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: They still exist

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed May 29, 2013 6:43 pm

Today I found out that my ex is dating some dood who is gunna attend a festering TTT, and idk why it made me feel so much better about myself. I want to tell that dood, "great job bro"

NYstate
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Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:44 am

Re: They still exist

Postby NYstate » Wed May 29, 2013 6:47 pm

Danger Zone wrote:Oh wait, I just noticed that people are encouraging this type of idiotic behavior. Unless you're actually friends with the dude, leave it be. Even then, it's debatable whether you should say shit like "I'm going to Yale and you're going to a padded room."


I agree. I don't know if OP is the person to pull this off. Starting a thread with " they still exist" is a bad sign.

I think there should be a decent way to tell a person about the scam. But I don't think OP had the right approach.
Last edited by NYstate on Wed May 29, 2013 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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